E MTB as only bike

[Mgbudd]

Nearly all e-bike reviews contain the line "It won't replace your normal bike", though after just three weeks, even road bikes make me feel like i'm riding with the brakes on... My Kenevo has absolutely replaced my 'normal' bike...

So I bought the Kenevo and love it, have turned down the assistance levels on eco and trail so I still work when riding but old bike hasn't been out once since I've had it and not sure that's going to change! Opened up so much riding and it's just plain fun! Love it!

Comparing against old rides it's interesting calorie burn etc is about the same on a similar duration ride but I cover lots more distance and enjoy a lot more fun terrain... Albeit I work at a lower average heart rate

 

[Al Boneta]

I still ride both acoustic and electric. I own an obscene amount of bikes that I’ve accumulated working in the bike industry for 30 years.
I still like to ride BMX at the skate park and ride my DJ at the pump track.

 

[davegixer]

I still ride both acoustic and electric. I own an obscene amount of bikes that I’ve accumulated working in the bike industry for 30 years.
I still like to ride BMX at the skate park and ride my DJ at the pump track.

Acoustic and electric!!! Haha that tickled me as a guitar nut.

 

[Dusty]

Acoustic and electric!!! Haha that tickled me as a guitar nut.

Volume turned right up to 11

 

[idahoskiguy]

Will be keeping my Carbon Stumpjumper 29er for riding at the local ski resort in the summer, chairlift up, mtn bike down.....great fun and the emtn bike would be overkill and a little heavy lifting on and off the chairlift.

 

[wildsau2]

the more i use my e-mtb hardtail (for commuting and car replacement) the more i love my 7kg lightweight roadbike. speed matters.

 

[DEADMEAT]

the more i use my e-mtb hardtail (for commuting and car replacement) the more i love my 7kg lightweight roadbike. speed matters.

I guess that'll be down to the entirely arbitrary, pointless restriction placed on your ebike. If you can go faster on your road bike, over which you have much, much less control and less than half the ability to stop in an emergency, does it not make you think "why aren't we collectively fighting this stupid assistance limit placed on our e-bikes for literally no reason at all"?

 

[MattyB]

Nearly all e-bike reviews contain the line "It won't replace your normal bike", though after just three weeks, even road bikes make me feel like i'm riding with the brakes on... My Kenevo has absolutely replaced my 'normal' bike...

If you only ride relatively short distances (~35-40 miles max distance in a single ride) then I agree an ebike can replace a normal bike. However keen road cyclists and commuters who travel further will retain traditional analogue bikes at least until the energy density of batteries has doubled; at that point you may see a turning point, but there will always be a large number who prefer a fully human powered experience for the fitness and speed benefits they give (assuming the 15mph limit is not increased, which seems highly unlikely at least in the short term).

I guess that'll be down to the entirely arbitrary, pointless restriction placed on your ebike. If you can go faster on your road bike, over which you have much, much less control and less than half the ability to stop in an emergency, does it not make you think "why aren't we collectively fighting this stupid assistance limit placed on our e-bikes for literally no reason at all"?

Why do you believe a road cyclist has "much, much less control" over their bike? That's not how I feel when I ride mine. Yes there are external dangers over which I do not have direct control (i.e. other road users), but with defensive riding those can be minimised, and there are different dangers for MTB riders too - huge changes of surface with varying grip levels, drops to negotiate etc. which are not there for a road bike. A road bike is also far far lighter, and with the improved hydro disc brakes that many are now choosing can stop very well in all conditions.

It will not be a popular view here, but personally I have zero expectation that the 25kmh limit for ebikes will be raised; I think it's more likely in the light of the recent publicity around deaths due to cycling that more restrictions will be added for all cycles, irrelevant of type. Mandatory insurance is already beng mooted in Europe, and a "Death by dangerous cycling" law on it's way in the UK. Governments would always rather legislate and tax rather than give or protect the freedoms of their citizens; that doesn't generate revenues after all...

 

[eFat]

I have zero expectation that the 25kmh limit for ebikes will be raised;

It should not.

And for commuting a MTB (e- or not) is not a good solution. A 45km/h e-bike with large battery, lights, mudguards, etc. is.

 

[DEADMEAT]

If you only ride relatively short distances (~35-40 miles max distance in a single ride) then I agree an ebike can replace a normal bike. However keen road cyclists and commuters who travel further will retain traditional analogue bikes at least until the energy density of batteries has doubled; at that point you may see a turning point, but there will always be a large number who prefer a fully human powered experience for the fitness and speed benefits they give (assuming the 15mph limit is not increased, which seems highly unlikely at least in the short term).

Why do you believe a road cyclist has "much, much less control" over their bike? That's not how I feel when I ride mine. Yes there are external dangers over which I do not have direct control (i.e. other road users), but with defensive riding those can be minimised, and there are different dangers for MTB riders too - huge changes of surface with varying grip levels, drops to negotiate etc. which are not there for a road bike. A road bike is also far far lighter, and with the improved hydro disc brakes that many are now choosing can stop very well in all conditions.

It will not be a popular view here, but personally I have zero expectation that the 25kmh limit for ebikes will be raised; I think it's more likely in the light of the recent publicity around deaths due to cycling that more restrictions will be added for all cycles, irrelevant of type. Mandatory insurance is already beng mooted in Europe, and a "Death by dangerous cycling" law on it's way in the UK. Governments would always rather legislate and tax rather than give or protect the freedoms of their citizens; that doesn't generate revenues after all...

Agree almost entirely with the last paragraph.

All of my comments are based on the use of pedelecs, and cycling in general on public roads, that is all the law is really intended to deal with.

But firstly, please, please do not suggest that you have the same level of control on your road bike as you do with, not just your ebike, but any mountain bike. On any mtb you have at least 5 times the contact patch on the road surface, this directly equates to an at least similar, subsequent increase in braking performance, even before you consider the average size and efficiency differences between the brakes themselves, and body positioning.

The law as it is, albeit as i said completely arbitrary as there has never been any legislation on e-bikes, is about road safety. Braking performance surely HAS to be the primary measure by which road safety standards are set? Obviously there are many other factors to consider, but just to continue my point about differing levels of control offered by a typical road bike over that of a typical mtb or e-mtb, why don't mountain bikers use drop bars? Why have mtb handlebars been steadily increasing in width, and quite dramatically i might add, over the last 20 years? The answer, as you know, is control.

You make good points but i think you have to admit to having had a slightly defensive, knee jerk reaction to my suggesting road bikes offer limited control vs a mountain bike, coming out with what essentially amounted to "You might not be able to control a road bike but i can!". Excuse the paraphrase, but my point is that i think you're missing the point for the sake of argument.
Lets not be silly, narrower bars offer less control, skinny itty bitty tyres offer much less grip, and therefore much less braking performance, no matter how much better road bike brakes are now, it's the tyres that stop you. Control and braking performance. That's the bottom line.

If you'd like to come out with me and do some tests that would be great, you on your road bike, me on my unrestricted Kenevo, we'll both sit at the speed whichever one of us tops out at first (which will still be me) and do an emergency stop, then i'll listen to some more of your points. Perhaps then we could devise a hazard/evasive manoeuvre test and see which of us kills the pedestrian? Then i'll listen some more.

The point is this. At any given speed, an e-mtb offers greater control, and a shorter stopping distance than a road bike, already making the road bike inherently more dangerous than an e-mtb, add to that the fact that as stated above, they are still faster than current e-mtb's, just makes them many more orders of magnitude less safe, on the road, than an e-mtb. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

The law. Currently, the law says that road bikes, as they are, are fine, only facing some scrutiny after the case last year involving a woman who died after being hit by a cyclist in London who just couldn't stop in time because he had no brakes. There was a lot of talk in the aftermath of that accident about the law requiring all bikes to have a front brake which is a good thing (read blindingly obvious) and i totally agree obviously. But there you go, talk of safety legislation went straight to braking, stopping distance, the number one safety element, common sense.

The law of the road should still stand, if you do 30mph in a 20mph zone on a pushbike, you should get the same punishment any road user gets. But currently, speed limits on the road do not apply to cyclists in the UK, which is madness, we need solutions... So.

1. All cyclists should simply be asked to adhere to the speed limit or risk being charged with an actual motoring offense.
That would go halfway to solving this problem already, which is mostly an intellectual problem, not one that really manifests in the real world, which is almost the entire point of this post

2. Maybe all bikes should be subject to some form of MOT? Or, more logically, a stopping distance test, simultaneously testing the equipment AND the riders ability to use it! (More work for local 'government accredited' bike shop/test centres?)

But this distance would have to be set with the most commonly used, standard commuter bicycle currently in use, the road bike. An average road bike, with average brakes, and all e-mtb's would easily be able to meet those standards, problem solved?

I really don't care how we get there, or whatever it is i'd have to do, i just want to be able to legally ride my unrestricted Kenevo anywhere i like and simply be responsible for my actions, just like the roadies do now, who will still be overtaking me!!!

A couple of problems arise when you apply this technology to a road bike, but the solutions are still simple.

1. Have a poll to decide upon the most widely accepted highest speed an average rider could reach on an ordinary road bike, i reckon that's around 40mph, but whatever that turns out to be, simply limit the assistance on those bikes to that speed.

2. How do you determine what is a road bike and what isn't? Tyres. I could write a complete legislative draft on tyre specification requirements here but i've written more than enough already and i'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a problem coming to an agreement on that. After all is said and done, it's enough to say, that if you put skinnys on your legally unrestricted e-mtb to circumvent the tyre regulations you are simply breaking the law in the same way as a motorist that's driving around with illegal or bald tires on their car, they can't catch you on camera doing it, but if caught, you'll be handed a hefty fine and will have to pay to get your bike back from the cops, though it will be much easier to spot a cyclist doing that than the motorist.

The end result of any legislation should ensure that all cyclists are capable of roughly the same speed, not one particular group (roadies) being allowed to go so much faster than everyone else because of the inherent nature of the bike, especially when those bikes are the least safe, if road bikes can legally do 40mph in a 40mph zone, so too should e-mtb's.

Please fire some more arguments at me, i feel like i'm building a case to take to my MP

 

[Carlos Muralhas]

I agree with the bigger wider tyre, bigger contact patch on the ground for gripping and braking, less distance to stop. All other things being equal of course, same road, same rider weight, same quality brakes. Of course the road bike will have less energy going forward (less weight on the bike) but the tyre contact patch and the rider weight will have a much bigger influence than the bike weight.

 

[wildsau2]

I guess that'll be down to the entirely arbitrary, pointless restriction placed on your ebike. If you can go faster on your road bike, over which you have much, much less control and less than half the ability to stop in an emergency, does it not make you think "why aren't we collectively fighting this stupid assistance limit placed on our e-bikes for literally no reason at all"?

speed for e-mtb is ok for me, my avg this year is 27km/h. Less control on a road bike? No.

 

[DEADMEAT]

speed for e-mtb is ok for me, my avg this year is 27km/h. Less control on a road bike? No.

Lol

 

[Doomanic]

i just want to be able to legally ride my unrestricted Kenevo anywhere i like

Can you give some examples of where you'd like to ride your unrestricted bike?

 

[DEADMEAT]

Can you give some examples of where you'd like to ride your unrestricted bike?

See the second line of my post... And then question your motivation behind yours.

 

[Doomanic]

OK, I missed that. So you want to ride you unrestricted eBike legally on the road? Easy, what you want is already possible; register it as a Speed Pedelec, pay for insurance and wear a motorcycle helmet.

My motivation? I'm concerned about trail access. I only ride my eBike off-road. If I can't do that, I won't be able to ride any more.

 

[wildsau2]

Lol

why?

 

[DEADMEAT]

why?

Saying that road bikes are just as controllable as a mountain bike is willfully ignorant at best

And don't throw Road Bike Party at me as i'm well aware. I will however stick my neck out and say that you, couldn't do half the shiz you do on a mountain bike, on a road bike, end of.

Don't say silly things. This forum is called E-MTB Forum, and i' f**king love e-mtb's. I'm on your side dude.

 

[wildsau2]

@DEADMEAT sorry, i hope this is not offtopic. ive answered the threatowners question. i do emtb for commuting, and i do roadbike on weekends, with my friends etc. and i love speed. i am not your oppinion that emtb is more safe than other bikes. if you crash with a car, a tree, a stone etc. Perhaps i missunterstand you. if, sorry for that. my english is rare (like a good steak).
attached files my commuting distance with my Rotwild RC+ HT. Peace.

 

[Dusty]

my commuting distance with my Rotwild RC+ HT. Peace.

How do you find your bike for commuting

 

[mark.ai]

Agree almost entirely with the last paragraph.

All of my comments are based on the use of pedelecs, and cycling in general on public roads, that is all the law is really intended to deal with.

But firstly, please, please do not suggest that you have the same level of control on your road bike as you do with, not just your ebike, but any mountain bike. On any mtb you have at least 5 times the contact patch on the road surface, this directly equates to an at least similar, subsequent increase in braking performance, even before you consider the average size and efficiency differences between the brakes themselves, and body positioning.

The law as it is, albeit as i said completely arbitrary as there has never been any legislation on e-bikes, is about road safety. Braking performance surely HAS to be the primary measure by which road safety standards are set? Obviously there are many other factors to consider, but just to continue my point about differing levels of control offered by a typical road bike over that of a typical mtb or e-mtb, why don't mountain bikers use drop bars? Why have mtb handlebars been steadily increasing in width, and quite dramatically i might add, over the last 20 years? The answer, as you know, is control.

You make good points but i think you have to admit to having had a slightly defensive, knee jerk reaction to my suggesting road bikes offer limited control vs a mountain bike, coming out with what essentially amounted to "You might not be able to control a road bike but i can!". Excuse the paraphrase, but my point is that i think you're missing the point for the sake of argument.
Lets not be silly, narrower bars offer less control, skinny itty bitty tyres offer much less grip, and therefore much less braking performance, no matter how much better road bike brakes are now, it's the tyres that stop you. Control and braking performance. That's the bottom line.

If you'd like to come out with me and do some tests that would be great, you on your road bike, me on my unrestricted Kenevo, we'll both sit at the speed whichever one of us tops out at first (which will still be me) and do an emergency stop, then i'll listen to some more of your points. Perhaps then we could devise a hazard/evasive manoeuvre test and see which of us kills the pedestrian? Then i'll listen some more.

The point is this. At any given speed, an e-mtb offers greater control, and a shorter stopping distance than a road bike, already making the road bike inherently more dangerous than an e-mtb, add to that the fact that as stated above, they are still faster than current e-mtb's, just makes them many more orders of magnitude less safe, on the road, than an e-mtb. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

The law. Currently, the law says that road bikes, as they are, are fine, only facing some scrutiny after the case last year involving a woman who died after being hit by a cyclist in London who just couldn't stop in time because he had no brakes. There was a lot of talk in the aftermath of that accident about the law requiring all bikes to have a front brake which is a good thing (read blindingly obvious) and i totally agree obviously. But there you go, talk of safety legislation went straight to braking, stopping distance, the number one safety element, common sense.

The law of the road should still stand, if you do 30mph in a 20mph zone on a pushbike, you should get the same punishment any road user gets. But currently, speed limits on the road do not apply to cyclists in the UK, which is madness, we need solutions... So.

1. All cyclists should simply be asked to adhere to the speed limit or risk being charged with an actual motoring offense.
That would go halfway to solving this problem already, which is mostly an intellectual problem, not one that really manifests in the real world, which is almost the entire point of this post

2. Maybe all bikes should be subject to some form of MOT? Or, more logically, a stopping distance test, simultaneously testing the equipment AND the riders ability to use it! (More work for local 'government accredited' bike shop/test centres?)

But this distance would have to be set with the most commonly used, standard commuter bicycle currently in use, the road bike. An average road bike, with average brakes, and all e-mtb's would easily be able to meet those standards, problem solved?

I really don't care how we get there, or whatever it is i'd have to do, i just want to be able to legally ride my unrestricted Kenevo anywhere i like and simply be responsible for my actions, just like the roadies do now, who will still be overtaking me!!!

A couple of problems arise when you apply this technology to a road bike, but the solutions are still simple.

1. Have a poll to decide upon the most widely accepted highest speed an average rider could reach on an ordinary road bike, i reckon that's around 40mph, but whatever that turns out to be, simply limit the assistance on those bikes to that speed.

2. How do you determine what is a road bike and what isn't? Tyres. I could write a complete legislative draft on tyre specification requirements here but i've written more than enough already and i'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a problem coming to an agreement on that. After all is said and done, it's enough to say, that if you put skinnys on your legally unrestricted e-mtb to circumvent the tyre regulations you are simply breaking the law in the same way as a motorist that's driving around with illegal or bald tires on their car, they can't catch you on camera doing it, but if caught, you'll be handed a hefty fine and will have to pay to get your bike back from the cops, though it will be much easier to spot a cyclist doing that than the motorist.

The end result of any legislation should ensure that all cyclists are capable of roughly the same speed, not one particular group (roadies) being allowed to go so much faster than everyone else because of the inherent nature of the bike, especially when those bikes are the least safe, if road bikes can legally do 40mph in a 40mph zone, so too should e-mtb's.

Please fire some more arguments at me, i feel like i'm building a case to take to my MP

Unfortunately I think most legal limits get set for the worst case, e.g. speed limit on the road of cars must be set for worst car + worst driver scenario (old car, old or teen driver?) rather than best car + best driver scenario (pro racing driver in a modern supercar). So any speed limit for e-bikes probably assumes it's a really crappy bike ...

25km/h limit does seem a bit low (on the road anyway) but 40mph (=64km/h) seems a bit high to aim for

 

[Doomanic]

I'd be happy to see the limit raised to 20mph to match our cousins across the pond, but like @MattyB I can't see it happening.

 

[wildsau2]

How do you find your bike for commuting

very good hardware (frame, brose s, 640wh, shimano xt brakes and gears 36-11/46), i’ve changed the tires, good speed, silent.
But very poor eMTB integration (bad marquardt remote, missing software, no ANT+, no BLE support, no Apps).

i had a Levo Comp HT MY2017 27+.
The RW is faster and has enough battery for my commuting distance.

All in all, i wait for Levo my2019.... (630wh, gx eagle wishlist)

 

[Dusty]

All in all, i wait for Levo my2019

Rumours?

 

[MajorUpset]

Hi, just contemplating getting a 2018 kenevo, currently have an evil following which I love....

How many of you still ride non emtb as well or has emtb taken over as your main ride?

Thanks

Wow... like reading my own mind ! I also have a Following MB, and am also contemplating a Kenevo... but tbh, can’t afford both. So was wondering whether I’d need to keep the Evil (which I’d really like to, as I do love it).

What did you decide ?

 

[wildsau2]

Rumours?

of course, ?? rumours

 

[Levorunner]

I bought my 2108 Turbo Levo in January. I have not ridden a bike in 40 years! All I can say about the Levo is AWESOME! I just turned over 1000kms with it today! What more can I say! ???

 

[Dusty]

I bought my 2108 Turbo Levo in Januar

I looked at the levo because of its popularity but because of my lack of component knowledge I didn't know what was a good deal or not .
Maybe I should start a thread ?

 

[PabloNZ]

I bought a Specialized Turbo Levo FSR for fun, my commute, and to act as an alternative to a second car, so like the proper old man I am I added some panniers earlier today to do this.

I couldn't see a lot of info online about how this would work with a full sus bike so hopefully this helps someone.

I used a Thule Pack'N'Pedal rack with the optional side frames and Ortlieb Back Roller bags. The side frames are needed as the bags easily flap in towards the spokes without them. It's a bit of a faff to get the bags back far enough that my heels don't foul on them when pedalling but it seems OK for now.

Removing the rack and frames to use the bike for fun is easy, due to the mounting mechanism, and takes about 5min to put back on and get tightened up for the commute/supermarket run.

 

[Dusty]

Removing the rack and frames to use the bike for fun is easy, due to the mounting mechanism,

Have you a picture of the frames without the bags on them ?