E-bike speed restrictions (agree or disagree )

[Gary]

Welcome to Australia...
.

I know all that. and genuinely feel bad for you guys.

Spanish Helmet law is my favourite.

In Spain we're going to make wearing a helmets compulsory for all riding of bicycles outside of towns!.
Ok, but what about when it's too hot ?
Well.. .not then obviously
Ok. so what about climbing up a big hill?
Well... no... not then either.
Ok.. so what about kids?
yes. they should always wear helmets.
What? even for short journeys?
Well.. .no not then.

In reality if a spanish cop stops you. They'll ask why you're not wearing a helmet, and listen to your answer. then say something along the lines of "you probably should wear one" and off they'll go.

Having said all that spanish drivers are among the most courteous towards cyclists I have ever encountered

 

[mark.ai]

Consider the L1e-A class of electric bikes in the UK: you need a driving license, insurance, a number plate and to wear a moped helmet, and you are still limited to 25km/h ...

The only bonus is the motor can go up to 1000W, but not sure what you will do with that!

Just adding the links I was reading with more info about it:
- New e-bike category ups the power to 1000 watts - Cycling Weekly
- Registration | Rad Power Bikes Europe

Belgium seems the place to go

 

[MattyB]

Consider the L1e-A class of electric bikes in the UK: you need a driving license, insurance, a number plate and to wear a moped helmet, and you are still limited to 25km/h ...

The only bonus is the motor can go up to 1000W, but not sure what you will do with that!

Just adding the links I was reading with more info about it:
- New e-bike category ups the power to 1000 watts - Cycling Weekly
- Registration | Rad Power Bikes Europe

Belgium seems the place to go

I believe that class is primarily aimed at larger, heavier cargo bikes for commercial use - they are seen as greener van replacements for stuff like sandwich delivery, couriers etc.

 

[grieko]

On the road and public tracks, you ride with 2 wheels and a motor. In the worst case a motorcycle. For that you need a driver license, license plate for the motor and assurance for a motor as well. Here in europe we have different categories. speed limit 25km, 45,

km and no speedlimit. All different. Involved in a accident you can get very serious problems who have to pay and that without assurance?

 

[Gary]

Wheeee...

 

[Mabman]

Those guys have too much time on their hands. I could go faster riding off the penthouse deck of a 60 story building.

 

[Slowroller]

That was pretty stupid

 

[Gary]

That was pretty stupid

What? You mean Embn don't just re-hash every episode GMBN ever do who in turn didn't just re-hash almost every episode GCN ever made?

62 is pretty bloody fast for a lumpy grass sheep field though

They should probably slap insurance, tax, licenses and compulsory helmets on hills

 

[outerlimits]

What? You mean Embn don't just re-hash every episode GMBN ever do who in turn didn't just re-hash almost every episode GCN ever made?

62 is pretty bloody fast for a lumpy grass sheep field though

They should probably slap insurance, tax, licenses and compulsory helmets on hills

Done 89kmh on my Levo, down hill, and felt solid and stable. Done the same hill on my analog all mountain bike, and at 70kmh it felt sketchy as, and had me dabbing the brakes.

 

[Gary]

Done 89kmh on my Levo, down hill, and felt solid and stable. Done the same hill on my analog all mountain bike, and at 70kmh it felt sketchy as, and had me dabbing the brakes.

all that proves is Donny is way braver than you. Not surprising for an Ex WC Downill racer.
I haven't ever done much over 50mph on any mountainbike because i think riding straight down hills is a terrible waste of elevation when i could be cornering and riding something more interesting.. massive stability has never really been somrthing I've craved from any bicycle.

 

[Bearing Man]

It doesn't seem fair that you can't keep up with your mates on their normally asperated bikes doing 20 - 25 on the flat, and you only get to talk to them three quarters of the way up the next hill as you pass them again!
I say derestrict the bloody things. How can it be right that you can roll down a hill at 30mph but your not allowed to pedal at more than 15mph on the straight!! Doesn't make a lot of sense to me
Great debate though

 

[mark.ai]

I had a sudden thought in the shower, as you do And it was that it would make much more sense if e-bikes weren't limited depending on speed, but instead were limited on power, e.g. bike power + rider power allowed up to some limit. That way e-bikes would work much more similarly to non-powered bikes. So you could set the limit to be say the power of an Olympic athlete. And then the e-bike would only go as fast along a road/trail as a non-powered bike ridden by some top athlete.

It would mean that people with more leg power would get less out of an e-bike motor, but that's also the current case when they reach the fixed speed limit more easily.

 

[Gary]

When you're naked and covered in soap that's what you think about?

M'kay...

 

[Jojo10]

Hello

My current opinion is, that the 25km/h limit for E-Bikes (Pedelecs) here in Germany is not fitting at all. For city bikes to commute it is too fast for the coexistence of pedestrians, non-E-Bikes and cars and in specific with a lot of people, who cannot handle this speed.
For off road use (in Bavaria you can legally ride everywhere in the forest with a vehicle rated as Bike, so also with an 25km/h E-Bike) it is to slow, if you use your bike for sports especially in a group with non-E-Bike "XC racers".
I would like to bring some numbers into this discussion from some trips I did with my unrestricted E-Bike.
A) Enduro Tour: Concentration on technical, steep, flowy downhills. Uphill only to connect the best 8 Trails here in the area. If its not going down, its going up. 36km, 1600hm, average speed 12,1km/h, one battery used with 504Wh.
Throwing out all longer downhills from the recording, for the rest of the tour 93% of the time, I'm below 25km/h. And here are still some up and down "flat" sections included, where you could be faster than 25km/h even with an E-Bike without motor activated.
B) "XC"-Tour: "Flat", non technical single trails, 65km, 650hm, average speed 17.6km/h, one battery used with 504Wh. Without the longer downhills it shows around 85% below 25km/h and also some flowy flat sections over 25km/h which is still possible without motor activated.
Both of this rides needs nearly only ECO and often switch motor off due to battery consumption, otherwise you would need two batteries. My guess is, that with some other, better rolling tires (currently DHRII, MaxTerra front and back) you could spin easier over 25km/h and so the faster Sections would be possible despite the speed limit of 25km/h.
C) After work ride around the corner, only E-Bike Buddies. Short uphills, short downhill trails. 25km, 350hm, average speed 17km/h. Mostly Trail or Boost. Sometimes it feels like motorcycling. The analysis shows 30% of the ride over 25km/h without downhills.

After this results I maybe have to change my opinion.
For proper Enduro riding you don't need more than 25km/h.
For "XC"-Riding you can live with some better rolling tires.
For this kind of rides you cannot even go faster because of battery consumption.
And if you hammer through the forest and only 30% is over 25km/h you have to admit, that maybe it is not good to ride like that through the forest.
So I will switch back to the limit and try it out to compare.

Thanks

 

[Bearing Man]

So what exactly is the argument here?

1. Falling off going faster than 15mph?
2. Annoying people out walking on trails by riding fast past them?
3. Running pedestrians over who don't hear you coming?
4. People can't handle the speed!

If it's number one? then that's going to happen going down hill anyway.
No 2, Most people are considerate enough to slow right down when passing walkers or animals. (Yes I know there are some out there who don't, but there will always be some)
Or No 3, Electric bikes, motor bikes and vehicles look like the way forward. So, shouldn't we (the government) be embracing this eco mode of transport and educating people that you should look as well as listen when crossing the road? It does seem a fact these days that most people are wondering around with noise cancelling headphones in their ears and wouldn't even hear a truck coming!
No 4, Some people can't ride motor bikes or drive cars but they are not stopped from having a go! No one says: Sure, you can have a Lamborghini, but it must be restricted to 70mph!
So what is the argument? Why restrict us to such draconian speeds
Or have I missed something?

 

[knut7]

The pedelec is restricted to make it impact it's surroundings as close to a regular bike as possible. Increasing restriction limit increases average speed. We don't want that on infrastructure that is shared with other bikes and pedestrians, for obvious reasons. Really, it is obvious. As for trails. Do you live in a country where most/all trails are non motorized? Have a look at the relevant law paragraph. Chances are motorized access is prohibited because of trail wear, noise and speed. So authorities don't want people riding e-mopeds (derestricted ebikes) on non motorized trails. If enough people don't give a shit because they are convinced the law is stupid then chances are ebikes will be banned.

The speed restriction is the only practical solution to keeping the speed down. Pedelec isn't about high speeds, it's about riding more and exploring more, it's still a bike

 

[R120]

Part of the issue as I see it is where we are in the current development of E-Bikes. Currently the vast majority of EBikes, and certainly those capable of any decent range, are heavy, and the effect of this is basically like dropping an anchor off the back of the bike when riding abovet the cut off in certain situations.

We are seeing the emergence of newer motors and technologies, such as the Fazua, that is making it possible for EMTB’s to get into the 16-18KG range, which whilst still relatively heavy makes riding the bike when not assisted a very different experience.

I think the reason most people derestrict has nothing to do with wanting to go faster, but actually to have a more consistent riding experience. The problem is that the current limit is at a point where a lot of people hover around on rides, and as such you find yourself experiencing the sudden shift from assisted to non assisted which can be very frustrating.

As the bikes develop over the next few years,, weights drop and the synthesis between riding with and without assistance becomes more seamless, then the need to/ uptake of people derestricting will imo become a non issue.

Ultimately what we want is a bike that gets us up the hills easier but rides like a normal bike elsewhere, and for me at least taking the restriction out enables this.

 

[Bearing Man]

The pedelec is restricted to make it impact it's surroundings as close to a regular bike as possible. Increasing restriction limit increases average speed. We don't want that on infrastructure that is shared with other bikes and pedestrians, for obvious reasons. Really, it is obvious. As for trails. Do you live in a country where most/all trails are non motorized? Have a look at the relevant law paragraph. Chances are motorized access is prohibited because of trail wear, noise and speed. So authorities don't want people riding e-mopeds (derestricted ebikes) on non motorized trails. If enough people don't give a shit because they are convinced the law is stupid then chances are ebikes will be banned.

The speed restriction is the only practical solution to keeping the speed down. Pedelec isn't about high speeds, it's about riding more and exploring more, it's still a bike

Excellent point Knut7. I rarely consider throttle ebikes and I fully get your point there. So, maybe there should be a distinction between throttle assist and pedelecs? As anyone who rides a de-restricted pedelec will attest, sustaining speeds above 20 -25mph off road even in turbo, is hard work and battery draining. I also agree that the very last thing I would want to see is ebikes banned from currently open trails. I just can't agree to 15mph

 

[Jojo10]

Hello

I agree with @knut7 totally. The impact to it's surroundings is the reason for the speed limit.
In terms of behavior at the cut off point I was very surprised yesterday, when I tried out the 25km/h limit with my E8000 with the latest firmware. Its beautifully soft. It begins with 25km/h and the assist tapers off to around 27,5km/h. I wouldn't call that cut off, its really soft. And a huge part of the "anchor" effect is coming from the soft tires with low pressure, that you can use on E-Bikes. With non-assist-usable tires it's much less drag.

Bye

 

[Gary]

The pedelec is restricted to make it impact it's surroundings as close to a regular bike as possible. Increasing restriction limit increases average speed.

This just isn't true. increased climbing speed increases average speed massively on a restricted Emtb. On the flat they're slower than non-Ebikes.
Not having a severe cut off point (ie all then nothing at 15mph) is the one thing that makes them feel NOTHING like a regular bike.
De-restricted they get gradually harder to pedal the faster you ride. Until they eventually hit a speed where you'd struggle to go any faster.

 

[Gary]

the effect of this is basically like dropping an anchor off the back of the bike when riding abovet the cut off in certain situations.

You still runnning the OG treacle treads that came fitted to your two?

 

[knut7]

This just isn't true. increased climbing speed increases average speed massively on a restricted Emtb. On the flat they're slower than non-Ebikes.
Not having a severe cut off point (ie all then nothing at 15mph) is the one thing that makes them feel NOTHING like a regular bike.
De-restricted they get gradually harder to pedal the faster you ride. Until they eventually hit a speed where you'd struggle to go any faster.

What isn't true? I haven't said anythink about a pedelec feeling like a regular bike.

 

[CaptainJoe]

A lot of true insights have been shared already from both sides. Here are my 2 cents:

• As we all know, there is no real brake setting in beyond "the speed limit" - I know, it feels like it, though, more on some bikes, less on others (I ride a Turbo Levo with Brose motor). Anyway, nothing is really stopping us from going faster than the "limit" and it's completely up to me if I want to go faster - I just have to pedal harder, and the motor will not assist me. That's all. However, my gear set and my physical abilities don't really allow me to go much faster than 25 km/h while pedaling anyway... Therefore: For me, stopping motor assistance at 25 km/h is absolutely not an issue.
• Being involved in an accident with injuries, even if not legally at fault, whith a derestricted bike could ruin you financially (I'm not even talking about moral responsibility). That's like going too fast on the motorway and being involved in an accident with injuries. You get some blame regardless of what happend (at least in Germany). Granted, this scenario of hitting someone with a bike will likely occur rather to commuters in public traffic with pedestrians etc than to MTBers on trails. However, as insurance companies will search high and low for any loopholes to not pay you or for you, they will likely use any argument to get out of their contractual obligations, if it should happen to you. A deristricted bike is just what they will happily take as an excuse. I'm not willing to take this risk, even though I think I'm a "safe rider"...

These are personal decisions and others will see it differently. However, I don't think this is a pure "let everybody do what they want as long as it doesn't affect others" issue. Here is why:

• Undoubtedly, there is growing "public concern" about ebikers not riding savely, being too fast and reckless etc. - news outlets keep mentioning incidents with ebikes, even if the "e" has nothing to do with it. Given this sensitivity, as non-sense and factless it may be, I believe we are lucky to have what we have today. I personally highly appreciate the fact that EU-wide Type 1 e-bikes are legally considered "normal bicycles". We can happily ride wherever normal bikes are allowed. What more to wish for? That's a huge playgournd we can hit without having to think twice. Looking at other places such as the US, with different legislation state by state or even county by county etc. I feel we are privileged over here. So, if a defined (and observed) speed limit of 25 km/h is the key to having this status quo (in EU), and as derestriciting bikes is jeopardizing it, I don't think it's purely personal business whether you derestrict or not. Police is stepping up controls, and everyone caught with a non-compliant bike is potentially affecting me and my freedom to ride tomorrow where I'm allowed to ride today (and, no, I don't think politicians will be very reasonable once public opinion turns against ebikes). BTW, a similar argument holds true against trail rowdies who can cause trail closures for everyone - but, and that's a significant difference, that's just for a trail or maybe a few. If we lose the "normal bike" privilege than we lose ALL LEGAL TRAILS at once. From there, it is a nasty uphill battle...

Sure, why exactly 25 km/h? Why not 30? Or 40? I think 25 is maybe not ideal but an acceptable compromise after all...

Ride safe and have fun!

Captain Joe

 

[R120]

You still runnning the OG treacle treads that came fitted to your two?

Yup but I don’t notice the drag off road/call it an issue for me personally.

 

[Norange]

So what exactly is the argument here?

1. Falling off going faster than 15mph?
2. Annoying people out walking on trails by riding fast past them?
3. Running pedestrians over who don't hear you coming?
4. People can't handle the speed!

If it's number one? then that's going to happen going down hill anyway.
No 2, Most people are considerate enough to slow right down when passing walkers or animals. (Yes I know there are some out there who don't, but there will always be some)
Or No 3, Electric bikes, motor bikes and vehicles look like the way forward. So, shouldn't we (the government) be embracing this eco mode of transport and educating people that you should look as well as listen when crossing the road? It does seem a fact these days that most people are wondering around with noise cancelling headphones in their ears and wouldn't even hear a truck coming!
No 4, Some people can't ride motor bikes or drive cars but they are not stopped from having a go! No one says: Sure, you can have a Lamborghini, but it must be restricted to 70mph!
So what is the argument? Why restrict us to such draconian speeds
Or have I missed something?

You can currently have an ebike that's derestricted, no problem at all. Like the people under point 4, you'll require a licence and insurance for that. Plus MOT and some more strict standards.

As for the limit being in the wrong place, I suspect there's an element of lowest common denominator and erring on the side of caution. E bikes are still pretty new, perhaps in time this might go up a bit, if e-bikes prove to integrate well with current infrastructure. Think there's more chance of that happening with a lower limit tbh. I know everyone on the forum is a saint, helps old ladies cross the road, stops at red lights, yadda yadda yadda. IMO, being derestricted from the off would have meant compulsory insurance, licence and so on.

I also think that riding safely at speed (on road at least!) is generally something you learn gradually. And it's a good thing that you can't walk in off the street, buy a bike off the shelf then just career off down the high street at 30mph.

 

[CaptainJoe]

The trail system in my area is either motorized with no restrictions or non-motorized, so a restricted bike does not allow me to ride any additional trails and would just piss me off.. I ride my EMBT on multiple use trails with motocross bikes going 60, 70, even 80 miles per hour. It's not a problem for hikers, bicycles, horses or ATV's.

Well, I believe that's a rare situation in your patch of the world. Most areas I have ever ridden (all over Europe and a few in the States) didn't have a lot of trails where motorized vehicles would be allowed for "recreational use". Looking at many different areas on opencyclemap, I would reckon that in many places around the world the network of trails accessible for unmotorized vehicles (and in EU this very fortunately includes type 1 pedal assist ebikes of limited motor power and a speed limit for the assistance) is by far more extensive than the network of nature trails that is open to motorized vehicles. I can understand your personal desire to be able to keep up with others on these specific motorized trails in your neigborhood. However, to me the solution would rather be to partition to open the non-motorized trails to pedal assist bikes (with a speed limit for the assistance and a limit for the power of the motors as as key elements to help you argue "they are basically much closer to normal bikes than to the other motorized vehicles"). That will probably give you many more trails to ride on...

CaptainJoe

 

[ccrdave]

this debate would be a lot more "interesting" if all taking part had actually ridden a derestricted bike, even if you are dead against the idea you may find a different perspective if you have tried at least once

 

[R120]

I think there is also a difference between derestricting and tuning - in my experience of riding derestricted bikes, they are not actually any faster/higher top speed than a normal bike (except up a hill), you just get uninterrupted assistance.

I think this is a different kettle fo fish to tuning a bike ( i have never ridden a tuned bike) where the bike has been fettled to make it faster, either though gearing or upping the motor power level.

 

[knut7]

this debate would be a lot more "interesting" if all taking part had actually ridden a derestricted bike, even if you are dead against the idea you may find a different perspective if you have tried at least once

I have ridden one, it didn't change my mind about the future of trail access for pedelec. And it didn't make me feel different about riding a moped (derestricted ebike is legally a moped) on the sidewalk. The downside of riding derestricted is massive. You can end up owing someone a whole lot of money, if you get into an accident. The upside is very small in comparison!

 

[Bearing Man]

You can currently have an ebike that's derestricted, no problem at all. Like the people under point 4, you'll require a licence and insurance for that. Plus MOT and some more strict standards.

As for the limit being in the wrong place, I suspect there's an element of lowest common denominator and erring on the side of caution. E bikes are still pretty new, perhaps in time this might go up a bit, if e-bikes prove to integrate well with current infrastructure. Think there's more chance of that happening with a lower limit tbh. I know everyone on the forum is a saint, helps old ladies cross the road, stops at red lights, yadda yadda yadda. IMO, being derestricted from the off would have meant compulsory insurance, licence and so on.

I also think that riding safely at speed (on road at least!) is generally something you learn gradually. And it's a good thing that you can't walk in off the street, buy a bike off the shelf then just career off down the high street at 30mph.

Maybe that's the answer? I would be quite happy to buy insurance, and don't disagree with needing some sort of licence (Although it's currently unfair that you have to buy a motorcycle, pass your test and then you're allowed to ride a bicycle!). Maybe in future there could be some middle ground on a dedicated ebike licence for those who don't already have a motorcycle licence and not having a bloody great number plate hanging off the back of your bike, or trying to ride in a motorcycle helmet!