E-bike speed restrictions (agree or disagree )
- Thread starter Krisj
- Start date
That is exactly what you can do in Holland with an S-Pedelec, my colleague has one and just paid for on year of insurance with the dealer and off he went!
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In Holland, all cyclists, children, pensioners, Pedelec's, S_Pedelec's, and even Moped's up to 45Km/h share the same paths. I get passed on my E-Bike by a 70 year old man on a moped with no helmet on whilst he carries a crate of 24 beers between his legs! I for one find this quite dangerous.....
I currently have my bike de-restricted on my 50km commute because like others say, I find the yoyo-ing of the speed incredibly frustrating. I understand that other users pay insurance for the luxury of having assistance up to the speed of 45Km/h but I only take my restriction up to 35Km/h so I am still riding at a sustainable 'normal' cycling speed. Whenever I ride my bike in the woods or on designated trails I actually lower my assistance limit back down to 25Km/h because I ride with non E-bikers and just don't really find the de-restriction necessary.
To that end, I totally agree with the majority that there should be a limit but definitely not 25Km/h. My other colleague told me to buy a road bike instead of an E-bike but I'm just not ready to start wearing lycra!
In my country, the s-pedelec can be ridden by anyone with a license for a moped or a car. So most adults can buy an s-pedelec without worrying about drivers license.Tthe rules for other countries may be different though, so it's worth checking out.
It's the same throughout the EU (UK sill included). Only differences are some technicalities as some countries require a license plate for mopeds some don't etc. That's why de-restricting is pointless and just harms us in the long run...
I still have 'normal' mountain bikes and I ride them regularly. I made many comparisons on the same routes/trails and I have significantly higher average speeds with my 25kph e-mtb. (I only had a higher average speed with my 7kg road bike on flat roads.) 80% of the times where I hit the assist limit I wouldn't even get to that speed with my normal mtb, in ~10% I can ride my ebike faster from my own power and in ~10% where I can ride 28-30kph with my normal mtb I just settle @25 with my ebike. For me, the "I can ride faster with a regular bike" so I entitled to de-restrict my ebike is a complete BS. In the end, this will just achieve that ebikes will be a separate category with separate rules and won't be considered as bicycles. Basically, all ebikes will be s-pedelecs.
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CaptainJoe
New Member
I for one have tested it. But I think we have two different discussions here:
- Will derestricting a bike make some things, certain rides, more fun, easier, better for the rider? Yes, that's undoubted. I haven't seen anyone who denies that. I myself found out that I don't need it for the type of terrain/trails I ride and, given some of the risks, I decided to go with the legal limit again.
However, the other discussion is:
- Is derestricting bikes and riding them in public space against the legal regulations doing the EMTB community a favor? And that's for me a clear no. Sure, we can argue whether 25kph is the best number. However, the fact is that without such a limit, regulators and governments would not consider such an ebike "close enough to a regular bike" to waive the distinction. There are places in the world where this distinction is made simply because the bike has a motor. This comes with a lot of downsides regarding where you are allowed to ride. In other places, retricted bikes are treated like normal bikes. That's a privilege. It required significant effort, lobbying and compromise. In EU, with quite a number of different legislations, the 250W / 25kph limits represent this point of compromise. It's specifically made to allow everybody to ride with an ebike where normal bikes are allowed. I'm personally glad we have such a reasonable compromise, even if 25 kph is not everbody giving the maximum of personal fun/benefits on every ride. Overall it's maximizing my personal fun BIG TIME, a lot more than I would have with a derestricted bike but at the expense of far fewer trails available to ride.
If you live in an area where restricted bikes are only allowed on trails cleared for motor vehicles then maybe you should go buy an S-Pedelec. Alternatively, start partitioning for access to trails for non-motorized vehicles and you will soon find out that you have to argue, why pedal assist bikes with a motor should be allowed. That's where you have to find arguments and compromise. Overall, I think the benefits of this compromise for me as a trail-loving mountainbiker by far outweight the downsides of the defined limits.
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thats good stuff and I agree but here's a question if the 15mph cut off is there to separate us from s pedelec and mopeds why are pedlecs not allowed button throttles? if they were fitted the bike would still not go faster than 15mph pedalled or with the button activated!
dont get me wrong I wouldnt want a button throttle anyway, but whats the difference restricted is restricted right?
Rockyw
Member
The current New Zealand regulations do not have a speed limit for pedal assist bikes, just a 300 engine Watt power limit. However the manufacturers have the bike engine assist limits set when they arrive in New Zealand. For Brose, Shimano and Yamaha that limit is set at 32 km/hr or 20 mph. For Bosch engines it is 25 km/hr or 15.5 mph. So modifying the speed limit is currently not illegal in New Zealand, even though it may void the manufacturer warranty. I for one will be modifying my bike, as I find it extremely annoying, especially on flat trails, when the feeling of the brakes comes in at 30 km/hr. There is also currently no issue in NZ with riding pedal assist E bikes on any normal mountain bike trails here. When I look at my Strava results, I see that many people are achieving much greater top speeds on their normal unassisted mountain bikes than myself, due to the braking affect that comes in when pedal assist stops.
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I’ve just seen this thread , can’t believe we’re doing all this again . How sad
as the membership expands more people will have an opinion, aint never gonna go away and maybe it shouldn't, its a controversial subject but it should be talked about maybe one day somebody who can change things might be listening
Fair comments , I guess , it’s the memory of some of the stuff from the last one that made me think Ohh nooo . People who ride off road with any flair at all will soon find out why the 15mph restriction makes an ebike hard to ride , not knocking those who don’t , being happy and having fun is all that matters
You mean apart from the no flair dig ?
Not meant as a dig in any way , poor choice of words perhaps maybe flow is the word , there is no way a ride can flow with the power delivery changing or cutting out, but not everyone rides at places where a ride flows at around 15plus mph and not everyone has that ability to want to .
CaptainJoe
New Member
The key thing to even get into the mentioned discussion is "pedal assist". Throttle activated motor-assisted bikes have existed for a long time (with combustion fuel motors). They weren't very popular, as it would in most cases make a lot more sense to buy a proper moped instead. However, when the technology behind the pedal assist progressed enough to be relevant for the bicycle industry, the "product visionaries" had the glorious idea to create this new category of low-powered limited pedelec that would ideally be treated like a normal bicycle deliberately avoiding a throttle. That's also a reason why the walk assist is such a limited thing as it needs to avoid being interpreted as a throttle in disguise.
So, yes, you are right. Besides the restrictions, it's also the fact that our ebikes do not have a throttle which makes them legally into "normal bikes", in some lucky places at least.
Fair enough Kernow, I think I get what you mean. Perhaps that's more likely around built trails? Think it's fair to say I adjust my riding style and the assistance used on the flat. Uphill frankly I'm happy to be making progress, and downhill I'm above the limit anyway. Looking forward to trying 29 in the next few weeks along with normal tyres.
Like previous posters, I don't think anyone is claiming the limiter improves the bike (apart from the obvious safety aspect). More that without those restrictions, e-bikes would likely be treated very differently.
Like previous posters, I don't think anyone is claiming the limiter improves the bike (apart from the obvious safety aspect). More that without those restrictions, e-bikes would likely be treated very differently.
In the US, throttle and pedal assist bikes are legally the same, and both are bicycles, in most places anyway.
Yes generally Iam noticing the limiter a problem on built trails , fairly flat up and down stuff where you pedaling hard and pumping , you pedal up to a small jump , or rollover where you expect to lift off , suddenly you hit the limiter , you wieght unexpectedly is thrown forward and your file is ended or worse . A 4cross type track shows it up worse , and something like a bmx or jump track would be dangerous . It’s generally easy to notice at the little practice areas you get at bike parks of your building skills there . As soon as you find your hitting that limiter on the rollovers or small jumps it’s time to sort it Or basically your never going to be able build skill any further in that area .
Climbing its not Possible to get to the limiter so that’s not an issue.or if you can it’s not much of a climb
And as for pedaling any great distance much above the limiter on flat off road stuff you still have to work bloody hard to keep up that sort of speed . On my local moorland trails it’s not often your noticing the limiter at all , it’s iether too draggy or your freewheeling on a rough decent . Even on the old railway tracks that get us around the area were normally conserving battery in eco taking it easier and having a chat .
The assist limit doesn't improve the e-bike it just puts it in the same category as regular bicycles (in the EU at least). If someone values that we have the same trail access as regular bikes then don't disable the assist limit, but if doesn't give a sh*t about it then just do it...
As pedelecs are getting more and more popular the de-restricting issue will get bigger too and we can only guess where it will lead to. Policing it is almost impossible and it will be more simple for lawmakers to restrict all pedelecs' trail access or just classify them as mopeds like the s-pedelecs now. Does it sound unimaginable? I wouldn't bet on it.
If I ride places where the 15mph assist limit makes the ebike 'hard to ride' then I ride my regular bike or as an alternative, just turn off the assist and problem solved...
On the contrary to the above post
I was listening to bunch of guys talking at an enduro last weekend where there was an ebike class . There was a bit of laughing going on that the ebikes would probably fail in the extreme conditions due to heavy rain , but there was a more serious concern that getting stuck behind an ebike due to its speed restriction was going to cost the riders poor results . So ebikers are already considered a pain by many riders because they hold them up on the pedaly sections then overtake on the climbs and it all happens again . The overtaking on the climbs is always way below the assist limit , that’s just a fact of ebikes and I feel the place we need to be most considerate .
I don’t see any ebikers going any faster than the better normal riders on flowy sections , but a derestriction brings them closer together and removes the frustration . So for these reasons the restrictor simply does put an ebike in another category that is less compatable with normal bikes . It also does the same on road rides . Average roadies , even below average roadies roll along faster than 15mph on the flat , and an ebike user starts to feel unwelcome as he’s holding the group up .
I think once a derestrictor is experienced anyone will quickly realise that the only limit required on an ebike is its 250w power , there is so much effort required to gain higher speeeds much above 20 and even more to sustain that speed , the natural resistance soon overcomes the tiny 250w motor especially on a heavy off reader with draggy tyres .
I would like to hear how many of the negative thinkers here have actually ridden a de resricted bike , many have ridden mine and not even even noticed
I was listening to bunch of guys talking at an enduro last weekend where there was an ebike class . There was a bit of laughing going on that the ebikes would probably fail in the extreme conditions due to heavy rain , but there was a more serious concern that getting stuck behind an ebike due to its speed restriction was going to cost the riders poor results . So ebikers are already considered a pain by many riders because they hold them up on the pedaly sections then overtake on the climbs and it all happens again . The overtaking on the climbs is always way below the assist limit , that’s just a fact of ebikes and I feel the place we need to be most considerate .
I don’t see any ebikers going any faster than the better normal riders on flowy sections , but a derestriction brings them closer together and removes the frustration . So for these reasons the restrictor simply does put an ebike in another category that is less compatable with normal bikes . It also does the same on road rides . Average roadies , even below average roadies roll along faster than 15mph on the flat , and an ebike user starts to feel unwelcome as he’s holding the group up .
I think once a derestrictor is experienced anyone will quickly realise that the only limit required on an ebike is its 250w power , there is so much effort required to gain higher speeeds much above 20 and even more to sustain that speed , the natural resistance soon overcomes the tiny 250w motor especially on a heavy off reader with draggy tyres .
I would like to hear how many of the negative thinkers here have actually ridden a de resricted bike , many have ridden mine and not even even noticed
I’ve only had one ride off-road where the limit became a hindrance. I was attacking the Verderers Trail in the FoD in boost just to see how quickly I could flatten the battery and I spent quite a lot of time having hovering around the limit wishing it was a little higher. At this point in time I think 20mph would be fine but I don’t hit BMX ever or pump tracks very often so I’m not seeing the issues that some others are.
I am concerned about access rights and wouldn’t ride a chipped bike anywhere I currently ride which makes it difficult for me to see the argument from both sides.
On the road is a different matter. The limit is, IMO, dangerous if you ride on the highway, especially on a Bosch motored, plus tyred heavy bike. Consequently, I don’t ride my eBike on the road.
I am concerned about access rights and wouldn’t ride a chipped bike anywhere I currently ride which makes it difficult for me to see the argument from both sides.
On the road is a different matter. The limit is, IMO, dangerous if you ride on the highway, especially on a Bosch motored, plus tyred heavy bike. Consequently, I don’t ride my eBike on the road.
There is data suggesting that the increased speed of a pedelec leads to more "critical events" when riding (roads/city). I'm not sure how some people can assume that further increasing the speed of a bike will improve safety.
There are a few studies to back this up. If we want imporved safety, average speed of the pedelec should be reduced. Alternatively, pedelecs must be made more conspicious, so the surroundings can easily identify them as a faster moving cycle.
"This result was very close to significance, suggesting that more kilometers traveled at higher speeds may better explain the larger number of critical events than more kilometers alone. Thus speed shows the highest association with the occurrence of critical events."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847815000662?via=ihub
Based on this, I can't see how we could assume that increased average speed on trails will lead to less events with other cyclists on the trails.
There are a few studies to back this up. If we want imporved safety, average speed of the pedelec should be reduced. Alternatively, pedelecs must be made more conspicious, so the surroundings can easily identify them as a faster moving cycle.
"This result was very close to significance, suggesting that more kilometers traveled at higher speeds may better explain the larger number of critical events than more kilometers alone. Thus speed shows the highest association with the occurrence of critical events."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847815000662?via=ihub
Based on this, I can't see how we could assume that increased average speed on trails will lead to less events with other cyclists on the trails.
It's not about "negative thinkers" it's about thinking in general. Before I decided to buy my Meta Power I was thinking if I can accept the 'disadvantages' of the 25kph assist limit. The answer was an easy yes as the benefits are far more bigger than the occasional compromises.
I rode s-pedelec and unrestricted pedelec too. Would a 'no assist limit' be better so I wouldn't have to compromise ~5% of my riding? Yes. Do I make the legislation that determines the assist limits? No. Do I want to add fuel to the arguments against ebikes and risk the unlimited trail access? No way!
I started to ride bicycles many years ago after the enduro (moto) riding became pretty much impossible/forbidden and I highly value the trail access that I have with my bikes.
In my opinion, the 'frustration' of running together regular and ebikes on an enduro race has nothing to do with the assist limit but with poor organization. They should run them separately. It's the same if different skill level riders run together without any order, it's not enjoyable for anybody.
Have you read that report I got as far as the quoted stuff from 2012 talking about motors in the hub , then the statement that ebikes can maintain 25kmh even up steep hills and into high headwinds . Sorry but it’s out of date , referring to different ebikes . and is frankly talking bollocks . If they are saying speed is the problem alone then perhaps they should compare ebike commuter speeds with other fast bikes like fit lads on roadies commuting in the city .
My mum had one of those early ebikes with a front hub motor , it was quite fast and your own effort bore little relation to the output you could get from the bike , on top of that it was a cheap nasty Chinese piece of junk that had poor brakes and handled like a wheelbarrow . I think the current thinking is still based on those original ebikes , they even fooled my opinion of ebikes until I actually rode a decent modern bike . I think you can trawl the net and find a study to back up many things especially out of date stuff . sadly modern thinking is based too often on what we are told is fact by seemingly official sources .
I don't know what Verderers is like but using probably the most well known red graded trail centre descent in the UK as an example. ie. Spooky Woods @Glentress.
If you don't know it it's 3/4 of a mile long and only drops around 200ft. is smooth hardpack motorway style surface has 24 (mostly bermed) corners, around 20 jumps, 3 drops and a few small rock features.
It's clearly not a steep trail but is rollable chainless (if you can pump well)
a decent rider averages right around 15mph down the descent meaning cornering speed is below the assist cut off but as soon as you leave the corner you pedal back above it. Every single corner. Most of Glentress' Blue and red trails are around the same gradient and all of the blue is similar smoothness and because of this a restricted Ebike is less fun than a non-Ebike to ride there.
Disclaimer: I know all of GT really well and if you GAF about Strava I'm top 1% on most of GT Red's descents riding a lightweight 100mm travel 4X hardtail. so YMMV
Ps.apologies for strava humblebrag. If it's any consolation it makes me cringe too
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S
Apologies Gary, sometimes it is difficult to work out your acronyms. What is YMMV please? ?
Your mileage may vary.
ie. we're not all the same
ie. we're not all the same
To follow on form @Kernow 's point, i think that a limitation on the power output, and actually not a speed limit is the key issue, and that actually using speed as the distinguishing factor is the wrong metric.
I would quite happily ride a lower powered motor with no limit, versus a higher powered motor with a limit.
It seems to me that the bikes should be classified on power rather than speed.
I agree that there does need to be classifications in place to protect out trail access etc etc, its just that speed is not the right way to do it.
I would quite happily ride a lower powered motor with no limit, versus a higher powered motor with a limit.
It seems to me that the bikes should be classified on power rather than speed.
I agree that there does need to be classifications in place to protect out trail access etc etc, its just that speed is not the right way to do it.
I agree. and the current law covering power limitation is perfect IMO.
Derestricted it's still no faster (max speed) than a non powered bike so I don't see any need for a speed restriction at all.
The key element in all this is that the bicycle is still human powered, but electrically assisted - its when those lines get blurred that the problems begin. If you only need half a crank turn to send the bike 50m down the road then thats not what we are after
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