DT ratchet teeth 54T vs 36T vs stock 18T for ebike

[BiGJZ74]

I never understood how people say 54t contacting at the same time has less secure engagement when an i9 Hydra only has 2 tiny pawls contacting only 2 points on a 108t at a time, 3 pairs in phase....(more than 2 times smaller contact points than a 54t ratchet). I guess the drag in 54t in constant contact creates wear but there's definitely more contact space to spread out torque over 54t than 2 pawls on 108T. Any thoughts? I run 350 hubs on my 2 regular bikes w/ 60T ratchets....no issues yet and I typically put out 1000-1200w when I punch up climbs. My ebike, a Rail, has I9 torch hubs.

 

[Akelu]

Dt Swiss advises not to use more than 24t ratchet with ebike due to the extra forces applied.

They make a special 24t version called 'hybrid' which is reinforced for ebikes (and it's not hollow like the 36/54).

I'm in the process of upgrading my hybrid 1900 spline 3-pawl wheel to ratchet (I've preordered the Ratchet LN 'Hybrid Steel HG' upgrade kit). I thought that would come with 18t ratchet like the others but apparently not. Hybrid ratchets come with 24t.

The 24t has 15 degrees of engagement, half way between the 18's 20 degrees and the 36's 10 degrees.

DT Swiss Star Ratchet Upgrade Kits

Precision handcrafted custom bicycle wheels since 2000. The choice of Olympians, World Champions, and Grand Tour Legends. Engineering expertise, meticulous assembly, and passion for cycling define the Wheelbuilder Difference.

wheelbuilder.com

 

[Sidepod]

Been running a hollow 54 on my eeb for the last six months. So far so good. I am very mechanically sympathetic though and don’t crash up through the cogs on full chat.

 

[Mikerb]

Dt Swiss advises not to use more than 24t ratchet with ebike due to the extra forces applied.

They make a special 24t version called 'hybrid' which is reinforced for ebikes (and it's not hollow like the 36/54).

I'm in the process of upgrading my hybrid 1900 spline 3-pawl wheel to ratchet (I've preordered the Ratchet LN 'Hybrid Steel HG' upgrade kit). I thought that would come with 18t ratchet like the others but apparently not. Hybrid ratchets come with 24t.

The 24t has 15 degrees of engagement, half way between the 18's 15 degrees and the 36's 10 degrees.

DT Swiss Star Ratchet Upgrade Kits

Precision handcrafted custom bicycle wheels since 2000. The choice of Olympians, World Champions, and Grand Tour Legends. Engineering expertise, meticulous assembly, and passion for cycling define the Wheelbuilder Difference.

wheelbuilder.com

yep 24t as standard on H1700 wheelset with 12 speed XD driver on my Whyte E180RS. Super easy to service. Checked mine after 300 miles and all good.

 

[Akelu]

It's also very very cheap to buy replacement 24t kits.
Complete 24t ebike ratchet including both ratchets, both springs and grease = $32.45 USD

DT SWISS Service Kit Star Ratchet Hybrid Version with 24 Teeth for Ra, 34,79 €

DT SWISS Service Kit tooth lock washer hybrid version with 24 teeth for Ratchet System 2 pieces With these tooth lock washers you can maintain your DT Swiss

r2-bike.com

 

[salko]

It's also very very cheap to buy replacement 24t kits.
Complete 24t ebike ratchet including both ratchets, both springs and grease = $32.45 USD

DT SWISS Service Kit Star Ratchet Hybrid Version with 24 Teeth for Ra, 34,79 €

DT SWISS Service Kit tooth lock washer hybrid version with 24 teeth for Ratchet System 2 pieces With these tooth lock washers you can maintain your DT Swiss

r2-bike.com

They are cheap because they never fail ?

 

[Akelu]

They are cheap because they never fail ?

It's crazy how much a 54t ratchet set costs in Australia.

$148 USD for the 54t ratchet, 2 springs and little tub of grease

DT Swiss Superlight 54t Star Ratchet-Springs-Grease Kit

Upgrade your existing DT Swiss Star Ratchet hub with this kit. You'll not only shave some weight, but you'll triple the engagement points going from the standard 18 up to 54.Saves 10g over the standard jobs and comes as a pair of ratchets - enough to do 1 hub.It'll work on any star ratchet hub...

www.mtbdirect.com.au

 

[Akelu]

It's crazy how much a 54t ratchet set costs in Australia.

$148 USD for the 54t ratchet, 2 springs and little tub of grease

I can literally buy nearly 5 complete 24t ratchet kits for the price of one 54t.

 

[eMullet]

Over 700km on 54T ratchet with no problems on Spectral:ON

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

1300 km and my 54t ratchets are done. Started slipping on full leg power / steep climbs. I should have serviced more (I didn't ever service it stupidly) and I reckon I could have gotten more out of it.

 

[Gary]

I am very mechanically sympathetic though and don’t crash up through the cogs on full chat.

That makes no difference to the Freehub pick up mechanism. Just your chain and cassette.
Grinding high gears all the time in high torque modes with high torque stopping and starting would make more difference.

 

[salko]

1300 km and my 54t ratchets are done. Started slipping on full leg power / steep climbs. I should have serviced more (I didn't ever service it stupidly) and I reckon I could have gotten more out of it.

I guess keeping 24t ratchets in Hybrid hub are way to go for emtbs. Maybe someone share his max mileage with 24t ratchet before needing replacement?

 

[Gary]

Any thoughts?

Have you actually stopped to think about how the two different Freehub mechanism designs work?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I guess keeping 24t ratchets in Hybrid hub are way to go for emtbs. Maybe someone share his max mileage with 24t ratchet before needing replacement?

I swapped out for a spare 24t I had. It'll no doubt last a long time.

 

[Akelu]

should have serviced more (I didn't ever service it stupidly) and I reckon I could have gotten more out of it.

Yes, DT Swiss themselves say that the more teeth your ratchet has, is mainly proportional to how much extra service you will need to give it.

 

[BiGJZ74]

Have you actually stopped to think about how the two different Freehub mechanism designs work?

Did you read my post as I already mentioned how the two types work....anyways, i was just trying to make a discussion.

 

[Gary]

Did you read my post as I already mentioned how the two types work

Yes. Of course I read your post
The fact that you stated you can't understand how sprung pawls are more secure when engaged compared to ratchet rings says to me you probably haven't actually thought very hard about the mechanics of each design and how the engagement is achieved.

It's not all that difficult to grasp if you simply look at the two designs. Allow me to explain.

as you can hopefully see with the above sprung pawl designs (not I9 but same principle) the more force you put into driving the hub when the pawls are engaged the more securely they are pressed into the ratchet

whereas...

Ratchet LN Technology | DT Swiss | DT Swiss

The Ratchet LN replaces the pawl freehub system. It is the entry level Ratchet System of DT Swiss and it stands for outstanding reliability.

www.dtswiss.com

with two sprung ratchet rings as the DT Swiss design uses all that is keeping them from slipping (when worn) is the two springs either side.
and the more points of engagement. the finer the ratchet surface required the shallower each tooth. ie. less engagement material in contact. so it stands to reason with wear under high load they will eventually slip.

Nothing is perfect. and yes. As you state with just 2 pawls in contact at any one time in your I9 hub you are asking a lot of the hub shell, freehub body, pawls and ratchet.

...anyways, i was just trying to make a discussion.

And I'm just helping you answer your question within the discussion

 

[BiGJZ74]

Yes. Of course I read your post
The fact that you stated you can't understand how sprung pawls are more secure when engaged compared to ratchet rings says to me you probably haven't actually thought very hard about the mechanics of each design and how the engagement is achieved.

It's not all that difficult to grasp if you simply look at the two designs. Allow me to explain.

View attachment 68795

as you can hopefully see with the above sprung pawl designs (not I9 but same principle) the more force you put into driving the hub when the pawls are engaged the more securely they are pressed into the ratchet

whereas...

Ratchet LN Technology | DT Swiss | DT Swiss

The Ratchet LN replaces the pawl freehub system. It is the entry level Ratchet System of DT Swiss and it stands for outstanding reliability.

www.dtswiss.com

View attachment 68796 View attachment 68797

with two sprung ratchet rings as the DT Swiss design uses all that is keeping them from slipping (when worn) is the two springs either side.
and the more points of engagement. the finer the ratchet surface required the shallower each tooth. ie. less engagement material in contact. so it stands to reason with wear under high load they will eventually slip.

Nothing is perfect. and yes. As you state with just 2 pawls in contact at any one time in your I9 hub you are asking a lot of the hub shell, freehub body, pawls and ratchet.


And I'm just helping you answer your question within the discussion

Yes. Of course I read your post
The fact that you stated you can't understand how sprung pawls are more secure when engaged compared to ratchet rings says to me you probably haven't actually thought very hard about the mechanics of each design and how the engagement is achieved.

It's not all that difficult to grasp if you simply look at the two designs. Allow me to explain.

View attachment 68795

as you can hopefully see with the above sprung pawl designs (not I9 but same principle) the more force you put into driving the hub when the pawls are engaged the more securely they are pressed into the ratchet

whereas...

Ratchet LN Technology | DT Swiss | DT Swiss

The Ratchet LN replaces the pawl freehub system. It is the entry level Ratchet System of DT Swiss and it stands for outstanding reliability.

www.dtswiss.com

View attachment 68796 View attachment 68797

with two sprung ratchet rings as the DT Swiss design uses all that is keeping them from slipping (when worn) is the two springs either side.
and the more points of engagement. the finer the ratchet surface required the shallower each tooth. ie. less engagement material in contact. so it stands to reason with wear under high load they will eventually slip.

Nothing is perfect. and yes. As you state with just 2 pawls in contact at any one time in your I9 hub you are asking a lot of the hub shell, freehub body, pawls and ratchet.


And I'm just helping you answer your question within the discussion

Thanks for the response!

 

[KSL]

I would not say anything about DT Swiss ratchet durability based on experiences about chinese knock offs. But as said, 24T has been designed for ebikes and it is stronger than 54T version. I have 24T on my ebike and 36T&54T on my normal bikes and I think I will keep it that way.

Do you have any information on DT SWiss claiming their 24T is designed for eBikes or any stronger than other T versions?
I'm currently running 36T and plan to keep it clean and lubed...Although I'm lazy.

 

[Mikerb]

Do you have any information on DT SWiss claiming their 24T is designed for eBikes or any stronger than other T versions?
I'm currently running 36T and plan to keep it clean and lubed...Although I'm lazy.

#HYBRID - DT Swiss

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

1300 km and my 54t ratchets are done. Started slipping on full leg power / steep climbs. I should have serviced more (I didn't ever service it stupidly) and I reckon I could have gotten more out of it.

Old thread I know, sorry. But I'm considering the 54t for my 350 hubs that currently have the 36t. I have about 500 miles on the 36t with zero wear that I can see. I'm probably less aggressive than you at 73 yrs old and less powerful and as you are saying you didn't maintain the 54t as well as you could have. So thinking of trying the 54t. Did the 54t ratchet better (quicker with less motion) or does the motor internal engagement rule out here? Thanks.

 

[Pyr0]

I like the quicker engagement of the 54t.
I've serviced them twice in about 500-600 miles. No doubt they'll fail at some point but I still have the 24t ones to swap back when they do.

 

[Sidepod]

If you don’t mind the noise. Kind of thought it was cool to begin with but it’s just annoying now.

 

[All4Fun]

I'm running a 240 EXP 36t on a Flyon with 120Nm.
Over 2000Km and no visible wear, i lube it with all-weather chain lube, no grease.
I think the one-spring design of the EXP is doing a good job about engaging the rachets, the minor wear to the alu body is the same as on my analog bikes.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

I'm running a 240 EXP 36t on a Flyon with 120Nm.
Over 2000Km and no visible wear, i lube it with all-weather chain lube, no grease.
I think the one-spring design of the EXP is doing a good job about engaging the rachets, the minor wear to the alu body is the same as on my analog bikes.

I use the DeMonde freewheel light grease. I guess I will try the 54t for a while and just keep a close eye on it.

I did install the 54t on my SL. The old 36t had about 750 miles on them and looks like very minor wear and maybe a slight nick or two that could probably be burnished out. The quicker engagement was noticed right away and ratcheting to loft the front wheel over an obstacle is now much more possible. Slightly more noise but I'll just keep up with the servicing and will check it again in about 250 miles to see how it's wearing. I rarely hit much over 1000 watts max on my rides so I think I'll be OK.

 

[Fede1967]

I have just gone through the (painful!) down/upgrade process from H1900 3pawls to ratchet (by default they sell the 18 POEs kit and for this reason I consider a downgrade rather than an upgrade).. Painful was removal of the pawls ratchet ring after one year of hard ebiking so I had to do several attempts by increasing the heat transfer with a buthan gas torche and increasing the "hammering" on the wrench till I got it released. I have also upgraded directly to a DT 24 t ratchet which is considered the most robust for ebikes applications. Surprisingly it is sounding very quite and less noisy than the 3 pawl system, even with light DT red grease as they reccomend. For this reason I have checked a few times if the installation was OK and it was perfect. Now I am considering to "invest" (=waste) into a 36T vs a 54T ratchet. What is the latest experience you can share about 54T durability target so far on ebikes and heavy duty application? In case is not clear, my only goal is to make noise so to put pressure on my buddies that I am driving with but due to the nature of trails with frequent "turbo" ramps uphill I don't want to have bald ratchets after a few rides. . I am also to considering the chinese knock-off as the latest info exchanges are quite promising. thanks!

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

I have just gone through the (painful!) down/upgrade process from H1900 3pawls to ratchet (by default they sell the 18 POEs kit and for this reason I consider a downgrade rather than an upgrade).. Painful was removal of the pawls ratchet ring after one year of hard ebiking so I had to do several attempts by increasing the heat transfer with a buthan gas torche and increasing the "hammering" on the wrench till I got it released. I have also upgraded directly to a DT 24 t ratchet which is considered the most robust for ebikes applications. Surprisingly it is sounding very quite and less noisy than the 3 pawl system, even with light DT red grease as they reccomend. For this reason I have checked a few times if the installation was OK and it was perfect. Now I am considering to "invest" (=waste) into a 36T vs a 54T ratchet. What is the latest experience you can share about 54T durability target so far on ebikes and heavy duty application? In case is not clear, my only goal is to make noise so to put pressure on my buddies that I am driving with but due to the nature of trails with frequent "turbo" ramps uphill I don't want to have bald ratchets after a few rides. . I am also to considering the chinese knock-off as the latest info exchanges are quite promising. thanks!

I'm not positive but not sure the 36t and 54t are compatible with the 24t. I did run the 24t on my more powerful Focus Jam2 and it's pretty much indestructible. I had the the 350 Hybrid hub and the DT Swiss site said the the 36t and 54t would not work for that hub. But I don't think I would go with the finer teeth on an ebike with 70+ nM of torque and would stay away from any Chinese knock-off of these since I have heard stories of some nasty failures. I just don't think they are going to give you the best material or gear quality and you don't save that much money on them anyway.

 

[Pyr0]

When I was looking into swapping the ratchets from 24 to 54, I read the knock off ratchets when serviced show darkening of the grease, indicating metal wear.
I stuck with the official DT Swiss ratchets for this reason alone.

 

[SummerMadness]

I can't find any of the steel hybrid 36 tooth ratchet upgrade kits anywhere, they all seem to be the SL hollow version, anyone seen any about? Am in the UK

 

[salko]

Isn't Hybrid ratched 24T only?