Dissapointed

[Peaky Rider]

If


If you look at the power vs cadence curves of the various motors the Yamaha motor, used by Giant and in my Haibike SDURO, comes up short at high cadence. This may mean that the Yamaha motor is spinning faster, or alternatively and equivalently, is wound differently.

A motor operating higher in its RPM range is more efficient because it is generating less heat in proportion to its output power - spinning at a high cadence is more efficient but for the Yamaha motor high cadence means 70 to 80 rpm instead of 110 to 120 rpm like the other bikes.

Difference in design could explain part of your range deficit; perhaps it’s also a combination of soft ground and cold batteries. Once the weather warms up you’ll know for sure - it is possible that you just got unlucky and drew a bad battery but it seems more like temporary adverse conditions.

That is what I am hoping will be the case Hiker Dave.

 

[steve_sordy]

When my frame battery is fully charged it says the range is 40m in Eco, 30m in Trail and 20m in Boost. The TEC pack produces the same figures.

I haven't ridden in the Peaks yet, nor in sub zero temperatures, but the actual ranges I'm getting (either battery) are coming in as expected. I'm 67, 92kg riding weight. The bike lives in an unheated garage that this Winter has never fallen below 5degC. But crucially, I transport the bike on a tow bar mounted rack, so by the time I get where I'm going the battery will be at whatever the ambient temperature is, maybe less if it's damp.

I am having charging problems though, (mentioned elsewhere on here) and new information today suggest that it might be because I'm trying to charge below 10degC, when the temperature range for charging is claimed to be 0degC to 40degC.

 

[steve_sordy]

.......... Could be the vent holes in the Focus frame is a problem... Try plugging them and see if it makes a difference.

Yet another interesting suggestion from this thread. Maybe the air scoops should be blocked off whenever its cold? A bit of heli -tape should do the job, maybe even cling film!

 

[highpeakrider]

I wonder if you could ride with a big inflatable tent covering the bike in winter, or a carbon front spoiler that would deflect the cold air away from the battery?
Battery in a heated back pack on your back?

Other than really cold conditions where you should not charge, i've not seen anyone post any real world data that demonstrates less performance, or any real data that covering two small holes, or wrapping the battery in a cover will improve the range.

People seem to be getting to wrapped up in none proven detail, in summer will we leave them in the garage because its to warm?

Its a bike, go out and ride it.
The battery is under warranty for two years, we will all have the newest shiny thing in two years.

 

[Andy A]

I wonder if you could ride with a big inflatable tent covering the bike in winter, or a carbon front spoiler that would deflect the cold air away from the battery?
Battery in a heated back pack on your back?

Other than really cold conditions where you should not charge, i've not seen anyone post any real world data that demonstrates less performance, or any real data that covering two small holes, or wrapping the battery in a cover will improve the range.

People seem to be getting to wrapped up in none proven detail, in summer will we leave them in the garage because its to warm?

Its a bike, go out and ride it.
The battery is under warranty for two years, we will all have the newest shiny thing in two years.

Well said and you are totally spot on.

 

[Peaky Rider]

Well said and you are totally spot on.

No he is not. (Sorry High Peak Rider)

Fact - My bike battery will not take a charge after being ridden in temperatures just above freezing.

My opinion only - The air scoops are just gimmicks.

"Just go out and ride" - OK if you only want to do 18 miles but I would have expected at least 25 and hopefully 30 miles off one battery.

Oh well, hopefully warmer spring weather and my post Christmas diet will improve matters

 

[Andy A]

No he is not. (Sorry High Peak Rider)

Fact - My bike battery will not take a charge after being ridden in temperatures just above freezing.

My opinion only - The air scoops are just gimmicks.

"Just go out and ride" - OK if you only want to do 18 miles but I would have expected at least 25 and hopefully 30 miles off one battery.

Oh well, hopefully warmer spring weather and my post Christmas diet will improve matters

What he is saying is that everyone seems to be getting worked up about the battery and cold weather, but for yours not to charge does indicate a fault somewhere as it isn't that cold, and if the scoops are gimmicks why did their design team put them on, also air scoops are on the new Haibike Flyon are they just gimmicks as well! It is probably a case that you might have a faulty battery or possibly charger why not contact the shop where you bought it and get them to check it over for you?

I agree 18 miles isn't great but on my first ride ever yesterday it was on road but I did 19 miles and 1350 ft of climbing and I had just under 3 bars left on the battery and it was a cold morning up North

 

[jonnie brads]

My bike will live in my cold garage so I am starting to worry as I only got in on Friday!

I seccond that I have had mine 1 week and not had chance to get out yet and test it ☹. I do on average 25 miles every Sunday on a non ebike so i am expecting that on the focus I will ofcourse be using it in off mode at parts of the trail where I can pedal without assistance (dont want to get lazy or have to buy a tec pack ?)

 

[Lee67]

What he is saying is that everyone seems to be getting worked up about the battery and cold weather, but for yours not to charge does indicate a fault somewhere as it isn't that cold, and if the scoops are gimmicks why did their design team put them on, also air scoops are on the new Haibike Flyon are they just gimmicks as well! It is probably a case that you might have a faulty battery or possibly charger why not contact the shop where you bought it and get them to check it over for you?

I agree 18 miles isn't great but on my first ride ever yesterday it was on road but I did 19 miles and 1350 ft of climbing and I had just under 3 bars left on the battery and it was a cold morning up North

Ive rode in -5 over the winter so far... still get over 60 miles in eco with big climbs..so the cold doesnt affect em as much as you think

 

[Andy A]

I seccond that I have had mine 1 week and not had chance to get out yet and test it ☹. I do on average 25 miles every Sunday on a non ebike so i am expecting that on the focus I will ofcourse be using it in off mode at parts of the trail where I can pedal without assistance (dont want to get lazy or have to buy a tec pack ?)

Well as you can see from my previous post I did 19 miles yesterday with just under 3 bars left on the battery so you should easily do 25 miles

 

[jonnie brads]

Well as you can see from my previous post I did 19 miles yesterday with just under 3 bars left on the battery so you should easily do 25 miles

Fingers crossed I didnt mention mines a 2018 29er if this makes much difference. Thanks again

 

[Peaky Rider]

Starting to look like I have a problem with my bike, which is really all I have been trying to establish.

Unfortunately, the dealer has already said he can find nothing wrong with it but then these e-bikes are no doubt complicated things.

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[Andy A]

Fingers crossed I didnt mention mines a 2018 29er if this makes much difference. Thanks again

You should easily do 25 miles on yours

 

[highpeakrider]

So here's a thing, in summer I did 36 miles round Macc forest lovely ride in the sun took me 4 hours and 40 minutes.

Yesterday it was about 2-3 degrees and windy, after 18 miles on a single battery I was starting to get freezing, cold feet, hands starting to get cold with thick winter gloves.

So what you guys are suggesting at temperatures that are low enough to affect bike range your going to be out riding for 4-5 hours.

No most likely your going to do 2 hours tops?
Is battery range really going to be a consideration when it cold enough to freeze your balls off?

If we were in Canada where its could be -27 and cold enough to freeze lakes for the season i'd be with you, but we're in the UK.

 

[Peaky Rider]

So here's a thing, in summer I did 36 miles round Macc forest lovely ride in the sun took me 4 hours and 40 minutes.

Yesterday it was about 2-3 degrees and windy, after 18 miles on a single battery I was starting to get freezing, cold feet, hands starting to get cold with thick winter gloves.

So what you guys are suggesting at temperatures that are low enough to affect bike range your going to be out riding for 4-5 hours.

No most likely your going to do 2 hours tops?
Is battery range really going to be a consideration when it cold enough to freeze your balls off?

If we were in Canada where its could be -27 and cold enough to freeze lakes for the season i'd be with you, but we're in the UK.

" 2 hours tops", you've got to be kidding.

Meet with about a dozen mates every Saturday at 9.00 am, whatever the weather. Do anywhere between 25 to 40 miles, as off road as possible, returning home around 2.00 pm after a nice cafe stop and have been doing so for the last thirty years. That's why I'm struggling with battery range and old legs.

We do Five Shires Head and Macclesfield Forest before breakfast.

 

[Lee67]

I agree other week in -5 i was out 4 hours.....

 

[highpeakrider]

" 2 hours tops", you've got to be kidding.

Meet with about a dozen mates every Saturday at 9.00 am, whatever the weather. Do anywhere between 25 to 40 miles, as off road as possible, returning home around 2.00 pm after a nice cafe stop and have been doing so for the last thirty years. That's why I'm struggling with battery range and old legs.

We do Five Shires Head and Macclesfield Forest before breakfast.

Before Breakfast but you don't meet till 09:00?
Do you actually mean Brunch?

 

[Shaun]

Starting to look like I have a problem with my bike, which is really all I have been trying to establish.

Unfortunately, the dealer has already said he can find nothing wrong with it but then these e-bikes are no doubt complicated things.

Thanks for all the responses.

I am not convinced you have a problem with your battery. I went out and repeated the route I did yesterday (see earlier thread post) but this time I was on my Focus Jam2 using the TEC pack. Conditions were the same, cold, windy and wet with very muddy trails, so heavy going. Pretty much same as yesterday but with a 10 kg heavier rider the TEC pack started to turn red at the 18 mile point.

I never needed to use anything above ECO as its so strong and nearly equivalent to the trail setting on my Levo. I was staggered by how strong it is and this makes me think that its the principle reason along that the Shimano E8000 Steps system runs out quicker than my Levo. The Levo ECO mode is dialled back to 10% which is just enough to cancel out the bikes weight. I then use trail at 30% when ECO struggles on the inclines. I'm sure if I ran my Levo at higher ECO mode assist it would decrease the range and align with the Focus.

We really need to encourage Shimano to allow us the opportunity to tune ECO in the same way they allow us to Tune Trail & Boost on the E-Tube phone app.

Just my thoughts....

 

[Peaky Rider]

Before Breakfast but you don't meet till 09:00?
Do you actually mean Brunch?

Nah, that's when we meet mid week and some have to go to work after the ride.

 

[Peaky Rider]

I am not convinced you have a problem with your battery. I went out and repeated the route I did yesterday (see earlier thread post) but this time I was on my Focus Jam2 using the TEC pack. Conditions were the same, cold, windy and wet with very muddy trails, so heavy going. Pretty much same as yesterday but with a 10 kg heavier rider the TEC pack started to turn red at the 18 mile point.

I never needed to use anything above ECO as its so strong and nearly equivalent to the trail setting on my Levo. I was staggered by how strong it is and this makes me think that its the principle reason along that the Shimano E8000 Steps system runs out quicker than my Levo. The Levo ECO mode is dialled back to 10% which is just enough to cancel out the bikes weight. I then use trail at 30% when ECO struggles on the inclines. I'm sure if I ran my Levo at higher ECO mode assist it would decrease the range and align with the Focus.

We really need to encourage Shimano to allow us the opportunity to tune ECO in the same way they allow us to Tune Trail & Boost on the E-Tube phone app.

Just my thoughts....

Sounds a reasonable theory Shaun.
Guess I was just expecting a little too much from my E-bike

 

[highpeakrider]

Sounds a reasonable theory Shaun.
Guess I was just expecting a little too much from my E-bike

Did you happen to mention to the Bike shop you wanted to do 40 mile rides when they sold you an ebike with the smallest battery?
TEC pack and you should be good with use of ECO, 36 miles I had 3 bars left on my main battery TEC pack was drained after 18 miles but did most of the climbing.

That was goyt valley and macc forest, up the river dane before breakfast, but i stopped at the chippy for a 3 foot cod and chips....

 

[R120]

In ride outs I have done with Focus owners, the most I have seen gotten out of the built in battery was 25 miles and 3000ft of climbing, ridden almost entirely in ECO, in warm weather, and I was impressed at that range from the battery as on the same ride I had almost drained my 500wh battery, ridden a bit more in trail.

I nearly got a Jam, but one of the reasons I didn't was that my local loop when the weather is good is about 25 miles and just over 2000 ft of climbing, done in about 2hrs on an EMTB, and I couldn't see a way that the Focus would do that without the tec pack, which from my test rides with it was something I didn't want on the bike if doing any technical riding.

I just cant see that if you are going to be doing any type of riding that is going to have between 2000-300ft of climbing and over 20k that you are going to not run the risk of draining the battery.

 

[Kernow]

@Kernow : Where did you see that? Is it for any Li-ion battery or just Shimano?
I have reported on here problems with charging and I believe that I had convincingly proved it was the charger that was at fault. But today another member said to try charging the battery when it was warm (it wouldn't charge at 5-8degC). It worked!

It’s standard advice for any modern lion battery , not sure if the low temp causes damage , or just a poor charge . It’s possible some intelligent chargers would refuse to charge if temp is wrong perhaps . One reason I wouldn’t have a built in battery

 

[Doomanic]

I have a giant stance with only a 400 battery and in the peaks i too can get 50 miles... even 70 miles with 3-4000 ft of climbing... 8 miles would annoy me too...ps try spinning more is my only advice

Sounds like the giant has double the battery life of most other bikes

Looks like a Giant will have to go the shortlist for my next bike, although I'd like to see proof of those claims.

 

[R120]

One of the issues with any discussion to do with range, is aside from the obvious like rider weight, mode, elevation etc, I have also found the the terrain you are riding makes a big difference.

For example I can do two different rides in the Surrey Hills. One will be about 25 miles and 2500 - 3000ft of elevation, but most of the climbing is getting to the top of trails. I can comfortably do this loop with one battery, mix of Eco and Trail, prob 60/40 split

The other is a very technical loop, where you are doing about the same amount of climbing, but only about 18miles. Now this loop involves a lot of technical singletrack, with a lot of short sharp climbs, a lot of up and down and sudden bursts of power. This loop will also use most of my battery (and also knacker me a lot more!)

The point is I have noticed with the Shimano system, that if you are riding constant long climbs such as fire roads/ normal single track then you can get a lot more range than doing technical climbing, even if using the same modes, because with the technical climbing you are demanding more out of the motor, via sudden sharp inputs of max torque.

 

[highpeakrider]

One of the issues with any discussion to do with range, is aside from the obvious like rider weight, mode, elevation etc, I have also found the the terrain you are riding makes a big difference.

For example I can do two different rides in the Surrey Hills. One will be about 25 miles and 2500 - 3000ft of elevation, but most of the climbing is getting to the top of trails. I can comfortably do this loop with one battery, mix of Eco and Trail, prob 60/40 split

The other is a very technical loop, where you are doing about the same amount of climbing, but only about 18miles. Now this loop involves a lot of technical singletrack, with a lot of short sharp climbs, a lot of up and down and sudden bursts of power. This loop will also use most of my battery (and also knacker me a lot more!)

The point is I have noticed with the Shimano system, that if you are riding constant long climbs such as fire roads/ normal single track then you can get a lot more range than doing technical climbing, even if using the same modes, because with the technical climbing you are demanding more out of the motor, via sudden sharp inputs of max torque.

I’d agree 100% with that....

 

[Simon_t]

It’s standard advice for any modern lion battery , not sure if the low temp causes damage , or just a poor charge . It’s possible some intelligent chargers would refuse to charge if temp is wrong perhaps . One reason I wouldn’t have a built in battery

The problem is if you fully charge them when cold, if the battery is taken to a hot temperature, e.g. a warm room, the cell voltages will rise and exceed the maximum allowed cell voltage. LiPos are very dangerous if taken outside of their safe working voltage.

 

[Peaky Rider]

Did you happen to mention to the Bike shop you wanted to do 40 mile rides when they sold you an ebike with the smallest battery?
TEC pack and you should be good with use of ECO, 36 miles I had 3 bars left on my main battery TEC pack was drained after 18 miles but did most of the climbing.

That was goyt valley and macc forest, up the river dane before breakfast, but i stopped at the chippy for a 3 foot cod and chips....

The owner loaned me his bike (the same as the one I ended up buying) for a weekend last November. Pretty mild and very dry. Did a regular route and got just under 28 miles with over 2000 feet of climbing. Even hooned around on it rather a lot due to the novelty.

Plan was to use TEC battery for longer Saturday rides and just the bike battery for regular two hour Tuesday evening rides. Unless things improve, that plan looks fatally floored.

3 foot cod! that's not cod, it's fried dolphin.

 

[highpeakrider]

What you want is really what my bike is doing, strange you don’t get the same and I’m just under 60 so not a young light kid, I’m about 15 st

 

[ggrin]

Am I the only person on this forum who is disappointed with their Focus Jam 2?

I bought a 6.9 drifter last November along with the Tech pack which I was hoping not to use too frequently.

I love the bike, it looks great and rides superbly but there are two issues which are making me consider getting rid of it.

Firstly, the battery is a pain to remove. I knew this before purchasing but did not think it would be an issue, but I am finding it is.

Secondly, and more importantly, I am finding the battery range very disappointing. I ride in the Derbyshire Peak District so every ride I am looking at at least 2000 ft of climbing and conditions are currently very sticky.

Even so, I was expecting more than !8 miles off the main battery.

Now you could say that at 68 I am old (true), fat (a little perhaps) and unfit (definitely not, I have been riding these hills three times a week for the last thirty years).

Also my mate, who has just bought a Giant Trance, ironically on my recommendation, is getting almost 50 miles per battery charge on the same rides. He is almost my age, slightly heavier and not as fit, (he cannot keep up with me on a pedal only bike). Now I realise his bike has a 500wh battery compared to the Focus' 378wh, but even so.

I have read on here that people are getting 30 to 40 miles on the main battery. I would be very happy with that but am getting nowhere near it.

I rarely ride in trail now let alone boost, but still the range is rubbish.

Can anyone tell me where I am going wrong?

I have a Jam squared C plus, got it in November. I love everything about the bike but I have always been disappointed in battery range. What really brought it home was doing a 23 mile ride, 1750ft of climbing, with my mate on his new (2018) Levo comp carbon. At the end of the ride my battery was almost empty but he had 61% battery left!
Both of us on eco most of the way, but he had dialled up his eco to give him a bit more assistance.
He is 13 stone, I am 16 stone but otherwise everything the same.
Left me feeling I have bought the wrong bike and wondering if I should ask dealer to check the battery?