Direct purchase any regrets?

[Al Boneta]

I am an independent bicycle retailer. Direct to consumer brands are nothing new, I have seen dozens come and go in the last 30 years. We never really worried about it until the last couple of years, because in that time the direct to consumer brands have become really good.
I have sold a metric shit ton of Levos since 2016. But the only bike that I feel is a rival to Levo supremacy is the YT Decoy. Sorry Trek but even though you and Specialized are like the forever Coke vs Pepsi battle, YT is about to eat your lunch.
The Decoy: It looks amazing and has great value in the parts spec. It’s one of the best riding Emtbs I have thrown a leg over. It’s a direct to consumer brand so it had better have higher end parts spec.
A Levo costs more for a few reasons, some you will give me a rash of shit for the next part of this comment, but understand I am not saying a Levo is better than a Decoy.
In fact I really like the Decoy and I were able to stock it in my store I would. If I could buy one at wholesale for myself, I would be tempted, but it would end up making no sense for my business.
Specialized spends a lot of money on development and R&D. I can hear it now
“Well than why did the 19 Levo have some many problems when it came out?”
You can only be as good as the component manufacturers you partner with. Brose manufactured motors that would have been fine for anyone else, but they were noisier than Specialized wanted. So they decided to change them out on every 2019 Levo that was manufactured at that time. No one made them do this, they just did it.
That probably wasn’t cheap and probably the reason Specialized is looking elsewhere for motor manufacturers that are willing to build them exactly what they want. I predict you see a Brose motor on any of their performance Ebikes in the coming years.
Sure they could have just stuck a E8000 system on their like everyone else does, but that’s not they way they do things.
When I was a product developer at Specialized in 2008-2010, one of my bikes at the time was the Rockhopper. When I was meeting with the handlebar manufacturer in Taiwan, I was just going to go with an existing handlebar and just throw our logo and graphics on it. My boss was not pleased and I spent 2 extra weeks in Taiwan creating a new bar from scratch. I spent another 2 months back stateside testing prototypes.
That’s just one part and whatever the outcome they do everything this way. Architecture of a Brose S Mag and Brose 2.1 is the same, but they ride completely different. Specialized wasn’t just going to use the exact same motor that anyone else could use. It had to perform the way they wanted to and with their software. Whether or not any of us love or hate the outcome, the Turbo Levo is the number 1 Emtb in the world. By a huge margin. All of that development costs a lot more than just calling Shimano or Bosch and ordering an off the shelf system.
And the E8000 system is good, but in my opinion the Specialized Brose motor and 4th Gen Bosch motor are in a different league.
I have never been able to buy a complete bike that is speced the way I want it. It just doesn’t happen. But I can change most components and hang whatever I want on my bike. I run a $60 9-speed derailleur and my customers are having me mount AXS on their bikes. But I can’t change the motor or the software. And that’s the heart and soul of the whole thing.
Having said all that, the Decoy Is the only bike with E8000 that I would own.

 

[Al Boneta]

Spesh are now doing frame/battery/motor only option but unless you’ve got a garage of parts or your cannibalising another bike it’s not very cost effective but that’s how it’s been priced no doubt..

I have a lot of customers that have upgraded the suspension and wheels on their Levos that would love a frame only option, because they could stick all of the stuff they replaced back on their base and comp Levos.
Then they could throw all of their high end stuff on a new carbon frame.
But not going to happen for the US market

 

[Al Boneta]

I have to respectfully disagree with this and I am in the US, I have a friend and he has had his 2019 Kenevo at the dealer for a motor replacement 3 times and each time the dealer has to wait for Specialized to send out a motor. This is where he bought it. LBS. Each time it was at the dealer for 2 to 3 weeks. After 9 months of ownership, he told me buy the Decoy. Very few dealers will buy 6 motors like Berkshire did the UK. That tells me that there are too many issues when a dealer has to put that much $ out to be able to replace motors quickly. He also has had a battery replaced too but that is a whole other can of worms.

In all honesty, if it takes that long at that particular dealer, he needs to go to another dealer. This is the old schoool, lazy, complacent bike shop behavior that has actually given rise to direct to consumer brands. If that shop is still around in 5 years it will be a miracle. A miracle for the dealer, not the consumer because these shops need to go.
Specialized will have a new motor to any shop in the US in 3 business days. The only way it can take 2 to 3 weeks is if the dealer takes his sweet ass time ordering the replacement or he’s taking his sweet ass time swapping the motor.
A Levo motor swap takes no more than 45 minutes.

 

[YrianX]

I have a lot of customers that have upgraded the suspension and wheels on their Levos that would love a frame only option, because they could stick all of the stuff they replaced back on their base and comp Levos.
Then they could throw all of their high end stuff on a new carbon frame.
But not going to happen for the US market

I have the frame only on order actually, and for me it looks like it will come out slightly below price of a full s-works with some bargain hunting for the parts I want while waiting for the frame, which is pretty easy now with end of season sale on.

And then I will have exactly the parts I want on it Vs. still having to (really wanting , not needing mind you) swap out several parts on a pre-built one.

Of course, I would not have the benefit of being able to re-install more or less unused parts for a potential resale down the line, unless I also shop for parts with that in mind. However, the resell with original lower end components you have swapped approach is really mostly viable for the more entry level models, not the S-works anyhow seeing what equipment lvl it comes with pre built.

And there is always the thing with the fast paced tech development in E-bikes these days...

Having said all of this, I do want to mention that the ONLY OTHER alternative I REALLY considered was the Decoy... If it wasn't for the frame only option Specialized introduced very much under the radar, I would most likely have a shining brand spanking new Decoy parked in my garage right now...

 

[Russ2550]

I’ve been shopping round for my first E-bike and the Decoy Pro looks favourite. My biggest concern about pulling the trigger on the bike, is the direct sales aspect, as I’m a little worried, regarding warranty and returns issues.

So for those that have bought YT’s, any regrets, would you do it again, or would you go back to an LBS where you get more support after sales service?

Definitely look at the geo numbers and know your size. It was recommended I buy a size Large Decoy and based on that I’m now considering selling it. I thought it was me that needed to adjust to the bike. But I’ve never ridden a bike where my knees and wrist immediately hurt. I don’t know why YT slams their steerer tubes the way they do, or run on the smaller side. There customer service has been decent. But they aren’t exactly going to exchange my bike. On the other hand, Commencal was fairly easy to deal with and their sizing more normal if that’s a way to describe it.

 

[seamarsh]

Definitely look at the geo numbers and know your size. It was recommended I buy a size Large Decoy and based on that I’m now considering selling it. I thought it was me that needed to adjust to the bike. But I’ve never ridden a bike where my knees and wrist immediately hurt. I don’t know why YT slams their steerer tubes the way they do, or run on the smaller side. There customer service has been decent. But they aren’t exactly going to exchange my bike. On the other hand, Commencal was fairly easy to deal with and their sizing more normal if that’s a way to describe it.

dudes post is 10 months old.. i’m guessing he made his decision already. you can get higher rise handle bars to fix your problem, you just have to spend some time dialing in your cockpit, could
also try a slightly longer stem. the reason it feels small is the steep seat tube angle, you will get used to it.

not sure why would they exchange a bike you bought and rode?

 

[Russ2550]

dudes post is 10 months old.. i’m guessing he made his decision already. you can get higher rise handle bars to fix your problem, you just have to spend some time dialing in your cockpit, could
also try a slightly longer stem. the reason it feels small is the steep seat tube angle, you will get used to it.

not sure why would they exchange a bike you bought and rode?

I wasn’t really paying attention to the date. And regardless, if someone else comes across it I was just throwing out my experience. I’m guessing that’s part of why you also responded to a 10 months old post as well? Oh and I was being rhetorical about them exchanging my bike.. I know on the Internet things doesn’t always come out right. Just trying to talk bikes is all

Anyway, so far I’ve tried higher rise bars, longer/higher degree stems, and it still doesn’t feel right, for me anyway. I have new fork on order as well. And you’re correct, it’s the steep STA, in combination with the shorter reach, and super low BB. As I’ve mentioned it feels like an oversized XC bike. I’m coming from an older Haibike Xduro where I barely need to move the saddle most rides. I would probably have been just fine if I had gotten an XL. It’s a good bike, and really hoping a longer steerer tube will make me feel less “perched”. Otherwise, I’m not sure what else can be done?

 

[seamarsh]

I wasn’t really paying attention to the date. And regardless, if someone else comes across it I was just throwing out my experience. I’m guessing that’s part of why you also responded to a 10 months old post as well? Oh and I was being rhetorical about them exchanging my bike.. I know on the Internet things doesn’t always come out right. Just trying to talk bikes is all

Anyway, so far I’ve tried higher rise bars, longer/higher degree stems, and it still doesn’t feel right, for me anyway. I have new fork on order as well. And you’re correct, it’s the steep STA, in combination with the shorter reach, and super low BB. As I’ve mentioned it feels like an oversized XC bike. I’m coming from an older Haibike Xduro where I barely need to move the saddle most rides. I would probably have been just fine if I had gotten an XL. It’s a good bike, and really hoping a longer steerer tube will make me feel less “perched”. Otherwise, I’m not sure what else can be done?

not a short reach at all
if you go by the numbers. but i hear you it’s the seat angle that makes it feel smaller, it’s great downhil and tech climbs! i would go higher ride bar and bump fork to 160mm keep stem same and slam saddle back in rails. see if those things help, they helped me.

 

[steve_sordy]

I did all my research into geometry and concluded that my YT Capra would be spot on.

But it wasn't; in two key areas: both my fault, not YT's, they had made all the information available - I just wasn't looking properly!

#1 I missed the steep seat angle that put the saddle a lot further forward, shortening the cockpit. It wasn't a deal breaker, but it was nagging.
#2 I missed the high seat tube which meant that even with the 150 mm travel dropper pushed all the way in the fully extended dropper was too high for comfort. (Yes I know I could use the dropper, but I could not get it right when on the move over bumpy terrain). This was bad.

I rotated the bars slightly,which made enough difference for me to live with it. But I hated the saddle height issue! Fortunately the dropper failed quite quickly and I got a warranty replacement of a 125 mm dropper, problem solved! I loved the bike, absolutely loved it!

@Russ2550 mentions his hope that "a longer steerer tube will make him feel less perched". A longer steerer tube will push the bars higher, but further back towards him. A shorter stem will move the bars away from him. A reduction in bar length perhaps. He could experiment by moving the grips and lever inbound. This affects other stuff of course, but I'd try anything that costs nothing to do.

 

[Russ2550]

I did all my research into geometry and concluded that my YT Capra would be spot on.

But it wasn't; in two key areas: both my fault, not YT's, they had made all the information available - I just wasn't looking properly!

#1 I missed the steep seat angle that put the saddle a lot further forward, shortening the cockpit. It wasn't a deal breaker, but it was nagging.
#2 I missed the high seat tube which meant that even with the 150 mm travel dropper pushed all the way in the fully extended dropper was too high for comfort. (Yes I know I could use the dropper, but I could not get it right when on the move over bumpy terrain). This was bad.

I rotated the bars slightly,which made enough difference for me to live with it. But I hated the saddle height issue! Fortunately the dropper failed quite quickly and I got a warranty replacement of a 125 mm dropper, problem solved! I loved the bike, absolutely loved it!

@Russ2550 mentions his hope that "a longer steerer tube will make him feel less perched". A longer steerer tube will push the bars higher, but further back towards him. A shorter stem will move the bars away from him. A reduction in bar length perhaps. He could experiment by moving the grips and lever inbound. This affects other stuff of course, but I'd try anything that costs nothing to do.

not a short reach at all
if you go by the numbers. but i hear you it’s the seat angle that makes it feel smaller, it’s great downhil and tech climbs! i would go higher ride bar and bump fork to 160mm keep stem same and slam saddle back in rails. see if those things help, they helped me.

Yeah I honestly thought I’d like the steeper seat angle b/c I have a jacked up back. And your right, it feels perfect on descents, when I don’t even notice the cramped feel. I think I got so used to and developed bad habits on my other ebike which has a 72.5 STA, 180m F/R. I can ride with the seat slammed both up and down bc the BB is so high. It’s a medium and sits up a good bit higher then my Decoy. I have the 40 degree rise Renthal bars on the Decoy now. I found a pair of ProTaper Bars w/ a 3” rise. They damn near look like BMX bars but may be worth trying? The Fox 38 I bought is the 180mm. I also have another 36/160mm. I was hoping for at least just a inch or higher in the steerer tube, but that could just end up making it worse. I’m trying to find a saddle with fairly longer rails to push the saddle back. But they all seem to be geared towards commuter bikes. But I’ll try one if it may help. If you or anyone else know of any longish rail saddles that may work suggestions would appreciated!

 

[nickfrog]

It was recommended I buy a size Large Decoy and based on that I’m now considering selling it.

Sorry to hear that. I am normally a L but looking at the Decoy 29 sizing it was obvious that I needed a XL. I am only 6ft but a L would have been too small based on the reach value. How tall are you and who recommended a L ?

 

[seamarsh]

it’s not too small it’s all preference. i’m sure you have heard ritchie rude rides a size small frame! some guys at yt like to size down to have bike more playful... etc. i’m on a large at 6’, works perfectly. sizing up would limit dropper post length, so was not an option for me. have a buddy is on a large and only 5’6” he likes it.. no correct answer here

 

[nickfrog]

it’s not too small it’s all preference. i’m sure you have heard ritchie rude rides a size small frame! some guys at yt like to size down to have bike more playful... etc. i’m on a large at 6’, works perfectly. sizing up would limit dropper post length, so was not an option for me. have a buddy is on a large and only 5’6” he likes it.. no correct answer here

For clarity, Russ is considering selling. But you're right, maybe it's too large for him although reading between the lines it's more likely he finds it too small.