Decoy VS Levo Geometry Differences. The fallacy of Trail Bike VS DH

[Lee Dove]

Having read quite a bit about the Levo being a trail Bike and The Decoy Full on Enduro/DH recently I thought I would do a geometry comparison.

On the Size Medium for both bikes the differences are
1. Seat Tube 1 deg steeper on Decoy
2. Chainstay 13mm SHORTER on the Decoy.
3. Head angle 0.5 deg slacker on Decoy (in High Setting)

Everything else is almost exactly the same.

Given the short chainstays I would say the Decoy should be as good if not better than the Levo as a trail bike. I know that setting the bike in the high setting and getting teh suspension right made quite a difference to the bike in terms of trail feel.

Verdict: Do not let anyone tell you the Levo is a better trail bike than the Decoy. With a flip of the chip to slacken the head angle it would make it better than the Levo on steeper rough stuff.

Anyway thought a few folks might be interested in this.

Edit: Changed chainstay length from 30 , still shorter

 

[CatButt]

Yeah, I was planning on trying my Decoy in high mode...partly because I had a few pedal strikes (every mm counts) and partly to make it feel a tad more livley for trail riding. I might add 10mm to the fork too in the future which mean in high it should have similar stats to stock fork in low...I think.

 

[Lee Dove]

You could also just stick another token in the fork the make it ride dynamically higher (which is the real difference), but the main reason for me running high was to increase head angle , BB was an added benefit.

 

[CatButt]

You could also just stick another token in the fork the make it ride dynamically higher (which is the real difference), but the main reason for me running high was to increase head angle , BB was an added benefit.

I want to play with the Grip2 first and see what I can make it do...I typically like a super plush initial stroke for the small bumps...so I cheat that with a tad more travel. The Grip2 may allow me to not have to do that. Obviously the less travel the better to get the same job done. I like the 160 fork/170 frame and the Frankenbike concept...I am thinking it will be super duper fun once I get set up and get used to it.

 

[Jamsxr]

Imagine if there were other eBikes apart from the Decoy and Levo ?

 

[Tamas]

Having read quite a bit about the Levo being a trail Bike and The Decoy Full on Enduro/DH recently I thought I would do a geometry comparison.

On the Size Medium for both bikes the differences are
1. Seat Tube 1 deg steeper on Decoy
2. Chainstay 30mm SHORTER on the Decoy.
3. Head angle 0.5 deg slacker on Decoy (in High Setting)

Everything else is almost exactly the same.

Given the short chainstays I would say the Decoy should be as good if not better than the Levo as a trail bike. I know that setting the bike in the high setting and getting teh suspension right made quite a difference to the bike in terms of trail feel.

Verdict: Do not let anyone tell you the Levo is a better trail bike than the Decoy. With a flip of the chip to slacker the head angle it would each the Levo alive on steeper stuff.

Anyway thought a few folks might be interested in this.

Chainstay is just 13mm (not 30mm) shorter on the Decoy.
But based on the geo numbers I can’t see what makes the Decoy a ‘Enduro/DH bike’ compared to the Levo. Probably the specifications because the base Levo for comes with 32mm Sektor fork, Level T brakes, no dropper seatpost while the same price Decoy CF Base comes with Yari, Code R, dropper post.
That’s pretty much gravel bike vs proper trail bike.
Reviews are generally biased in favor of the Levo and comparing the 11,300€ S-Works to everything else ignoring the 1,5-2x price tag. No question, it’s an awesome bike but there are many others on the same level...

 

[Lee Dove]

Chainstay is just 13mm (not 30mm) shorter on the Decoy.

Thanks , my mistake, corrected in OP. 13mm is still quite a difference.

 

[Lee Dove]

did you compare both bike geometries side by side or is this a conclusion reached with internet broscience?

I am not sure what you are saying. I compared geometry charts to get the numbers and own a decoy and have ridden a couple of Levos (a mate has one).

I also have a Jeffsy (trail bike ?) and have compared the ride to that of the Decoy. So not SCIENCE just a bit of engineering and ride impressions. I made the post as there seems to be a lot of comments that the Levo and Decoy are not comparable as one is Trail and the other Enduro.

With modern materials the RIDE quality of a bike is mainly about geometry and suspension components. Tube thickness etc. are parameters that will change weight and durability but much less ride qualities. We are talking about full suss bikes not rigid forked hardtails.

I guess you may just be trolling of course.

PS: I have been 3rd twice and 4th once in the last three years of the Scottish Enduro Series so probably do have a feel for what an Enduro bike feels like

 

[Eckythump]

I’m surprised you don’t feel the difference between the two having ridden them both.
Don’t get me wrong, they are not worlds apart but certainly discernible. Having said that I haven’t tried the high setting yet.

 

[Lee Dove]

I’m surprised you don’t feel the difference between the two having ridden them both.
Don’t get me wrong, they are not worlds apart but certainly discernible. Having said that I haven’t tried the high setting yet.

I can feel the difference but my point was that the Decoy is just as good a trail bike as the Levo. Different size wheels , different suspension make the most difference however.

The Decoy is a good trail bike like the Levo but when the going gets tough the Levo suspension struggles. It was the same on my Jeffsy until I swapped the Fox 34 for a Lyric.

 

[miPbiP]

Lee's observation sounds very plausible to me.

YT chose steep Enduro style trails for the Decoy launch event, which I reckon was significant in Rob rating it much more "fun" than the Levo in his levo vs Decoy comparison video (below).

YT know what they're doing with that choice of location. It's not by chance. It's to set expectation and market positioning.

 

[miPbiP]

As for chainstays, I have 2 clockwork 29ers known for short chainstays, but I'm actually finding it easier to get over the bars on my Levo, despite the longer reach, and I'm wondering if that's because the weight is more centred on the wheelbase.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

+ 165 / 160mm travel, Reach for me was 495mm in XL vs 480mm in Levo XL... Felt that it made it better suited to chunkier stuff.

 

[Lee Dove]

+ 165 / 160mm travel, Reach for me was 495mm in XL vs 480mm in Levo XL... Felt that it made it better suited to chunkier stuff.

Do you think 165 vs 160 travel makes a real difference ?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Do you think 165 vs 160 travel makes a real difference ?

The levo is 150f 150r and the Decoy 160f 165r... It makes a little difference. Also the Shock on the Decoy was the larger canned X2.

 

[Lee Dove]

The levo is 150f 150r and the Decoy 160f 165r... It makes a little difference. Also the Shock on the Decoy was the larger canned X2.

Ok, I misunderstood. I think the main suspension difference is really the Decoy has a stiffer fork. My original point was that the Decoy is better at the Chunky stuff BUT it was as good as the Levo on milder trails when setup right.

 

[Eckythump]

Maybe having the X2 is why I am feeling a reasonable difference.
The extra 20nm of torque makes a significant difference between the two when any climbing is involved never mind differences in suspension behaviour.
Riding yesterday I was thinking to myself how the Decoy was harder work to pedal up the same trails than the Jam2 on the same power levels. Maybe flipping the chip will make that difference up. I’ll have to give it a go.

 

[Lee Dove]

As for chainstays, I have 2 clockwork 29ers known for short chainstays, but I'm actually finding it easier to get over the bars on my Levo, despite the longer reach, and I'm wondering if that's because the weight is more centred on the wheelbase.

I thought the Clockwork 29 had 450mm chainstays so longer than the Decoy and a fraction shorter than the Levo. I suspect that one of the reasons for YT to use a 27.5 at the rear was to allow shorter chainstays, always a problem with 29 wheels.

 

[miPbiP]

haha I didn't know Clockwork was a brand.

clockwork is my term for a non-motorised bike aka acoustic/bio powered.

 

[lookhear]

By the same thinking it also makes the Levo a killer enduro bike. Especially if you stick a 160mm fork on it. Also pretty much sorts out the head angle to match the Decoy.

 

[Lee Dove]

is that so? how do you know this are you a bike frame engineer?

again more broscience.

Professional Engineer for 41 years. Now retired. Lectured in Engineering at Warwick Uni for a few years. Designed some of the first FEA systems.

So this is how I know and I have no idea what "broscience" is.

 

[Lee Dove]

By the same thinking it also makes the Levo a killer enduro bike. Especially if you stick a 160mm fork on it. Also pretty much sorts out the head angle to match the Decoy.

That may be the case with a a decent fork in it. The Decoy numbers for head angle was the steep version so it can be set slacker using the chip.

I am not saying that the Levo is a bad bike only that is potentially no better as a trail bike than the Decoy. Rob did not test the Decoy on his home trails or side by side with the Levo so it was a guess on his part about the trail performance .

 

[miPbiP]

is that so? how do you know this are you a bike frame engineer?

so broadly, yes he is.

 

[Lee Dove]

so youre not a bicycle frame engineer. ok.

Troll on my man. I am sure everyone appreciates your contributions

 

[Lee Dove]

specialized spends $250K on a new hydroforming machine so they can make tubing in complex shapes with varying thicknesses to dampen vibrations, distribute loads and provide unique clearances...

some guy on the internet: oi all tubing thicknesses, etc are just for weight.


just because you taught at uni for 41 years doesnt mean youre an engineer with all the knowledge in the world. thats why there are specializations for different disciplines.

I guess you do not know what FEA is then and its application to frame design . Anyway witter on all you like as you will get no more responses from me. Happy ?

 

[Slowroller]

again more broscience.

dampen vibrations

 

[Tamas]

so youre not a bicycle frame engineer. ok.

I’m not really sure if ‘bicycle frame engineer’ is a thing...

 

[Lee Dove]

haha I didn't know Clockwork was a brand.

clockwork is my term for a non-motorised bike aka acoustic/bio powered.

I thought you meant the Orange Clockwork ?

 

[Camstyn]

Good job on shitting all over this thread

 

[Camstyn]

the whole thread was started on a fallacy sorry for ruining your fantasy kid.

Because you said so. Nobody cares. Half the thread now is you trying to win a pissing contest and failing miserably. Congrats.