Decoy VS Levo Geometry Differences. The fallacy of Trail Bike VS DH

[miPbiP]

@Camstyn you can remove any user's comments from your view by clicking their avatar and clicking ignore. If you refresh the page you'll see their posts are gone.

It's great for peace of mind, and life's too short to read things you don't want to.

 

[Camstyn]

@Camstyn you can remove any user's comments from your view by clicking their avatar and clicking ignore. If you refresh the page you'll see their posts are gone.

It's great for peace of mind, and life's too short to read things you don't want to.

It’s all good, things must be slow in the Levo forum. I know how this internet message board stuff works, I’ve been around the motorcycle oriented ones since back in the newsgroup days.

 

[JonasH]

@ASV You are absolutely right when it comes to computer aided analysis SW (both static and dynamic) vs physical prototype lab test, and people trails. Generally engineers get their degree in a subject (Mechanical/Electrical/Cybernetics etc) not a object. But the way you go about "educating" and "picking on" other members does not reflect that your social skill set matches your engineering skills. I'm using this forum to get information on different issues, and read about other peoples preferences and experiences, not to pick them apart. It's frustrating to go over pages and pages of spam and stupid arguments for the sake of an argument before i can find the good stuff.
Listen, you obviously are a smart guy and knows a lot, please share in a good/kind way.
Cheers!

 

[Hasse Birkmose]

not trolling. youre probably used to everyone bowing down when you say youre an engineer but here i am pointing out your assumptions and how unscientific they really are.

I am new to this forum and really like it. I like the nerdy stuff an especially the experience form riding different bikes. We are all happy amateurs who share our thoughts... That is in essence what a forum like this about... when we read each others opinions in here we KNOW this and accept this. Please... join in... be a happy amateur ;-)

 

[Sapientiea]

not trolling. youre probably used to everyone bowing down when you say youre an engineer but here i am pointing out your assumptions and how unscientific they really are.

To be honest, Lee dove is not making wild conclusions and is just discussing his opinions. You however, are just attacking him without any constructive comments. You can, if I may suggest, find another thread where you have something positive to contribute.

 

[HikerDave]

Having read quite a bit about the Levo being a trail Bike and The Decoy Full on Enduro/DH recently I thought I would do a geometry comparison.

On the Size Medium for both bikes the differences are
1. Seat Tube 1 deg steeper on Decoy
2. Chainstay 13mm SHORTER on the Decoy.
3. Head angle 0.5 deg slacker on Decoy (in High Setting)

Everything else is almost exactly the same.

Given the short chainstays I would say the Decoy should be as good if not better than the Levo as a trail bike. I know that setting the bike in the high setting and getting teh suspension right made quite a difference to the bike in terms of trail feel.

Verdict: Do not let anyone tell you the Levo is a better trail bike than the Decoy. With a flip of the chip to slacken the head angle it would make it better than the Levo on steeper rough stuff.

Anyway thought a few folks might be interested in this.

Edit: Changed chainstay length from 30 , still shorter

YT Decoy fork offset 44mm Specialized Levo fork offset 51mm. Fork offset plus trail from head angle means Decoy significantly more stable on a tricky downhill than the Levo, at the cost of wandering a bit more on climbs if the rider isn’t paying attention. Otherwise climbing about the same because Decoy’s steeper seat angle places rider slightly forward.

If you like to go downhill fast, buy the Decoy. If you like to go uphill fast, buy the Levo. Either would be a huge upgrade for me, in all trail conditions.

 

[mitch1808]

That may be the case with a a decent fork in it. The Decoy numbers for head angle was the steep version so it can be set slacker using the chip.

I am not saying that the Levo is a bad bike only that is potentially no better as a trail bike than the Decoy. Rob did not test the Decoy on his home trails or side by side with the Levo so it was a guess on his part about the trail performance .

LEvo's price is bad!

 

[davarello]

Both great bikes with their own strengths and weaknesses, the importance of which will vary for every rider. I bought a Levo Comp as it fits my needs for trail riding and a bit of bike park - if I was more into jumps I would have gone for something with a bit more travel and better suspension for the money like a Decoy, which I'm sure would be great on trail as well.

 

[Lee Dove]

YT Decoy fork offset 44mm Specialized Levo fork offset 51mm. Fork offset plus trail from head angle means Decoy significantly more stable on a tricky downhill than the Levo, at the cost of wandering a bit more on climbs if the rider isn’t paying attention. Otherwise climbing about the same because Decoy’s steeper seat angle places rider slightly forward.

If you like to go downhill fast, buy the Decoy. If you like to go uphill fast, buy the Levo. Either would be a huge upgrade for me, in all trail conditions.

Thanks for the fork info. I have not been able to find the offset for the Decoy and had assumed they went 51 with the 29 front wheel like most manufacturers.

Then I expanded the fork description on the YT website and there it is

 

[Davey S]

Is everyone remembering the geometry on the levo can be adjusted using the flip chip? I got the basic levo and put the 160mm Lyrik ultimate on it magic Mary up front and Eddie current on back. along with guide re brakes flip chip in low position (measures at 54.5 degree head angle now) and it is a very capable bike heading down the chunky stuff. I haven’t had the opportunity to test out the decoy but it is obviously much better value.

 

[Lee Dove]

Is everyone remembering the geometry on the levo can be adjusted using the flip chip? I got the basic levo and put the 160mm Lyrik ultimate on it magic Mary up front and Eddie current on back. along with guide re brakes flip chip in low position (measures at 54.5 degree head angle now) and it is a very capable bike heading down the chunky stuff. I haven’t had the opportunity to test out the decoy but it is obviously much better value.

54.5 Deg wow that is a Chopper not a Mountain Bike. How well does it turn ?

 

[Davey S]

54.5 Deg wow that is a Chopper not a Mountain Bike. How well does it turn ?

To be honest it turns fine from what I have experienced. I don’t have a quiver of modern bikes to compare it too but I felt I struggled a bit on steep and rough terrain before (original fork was garbage for my intended use) and it seems to plough through the rough stuff much better now. Still jumps well and nimble enough to react to unexpected roots and drops. I have noticed a difference climbing but only the really steep stuff (the kind that you should probably not be trying to pedal up) but nothing drastic that makes me want to go back. I can always flip the chip in the rear suspension (takes 5 mins) if I’m going for a long trail ride and that definitely makes it a little sharper.

 

[Lee Dove]

To be honest it turns fine from what I have experienced. I don’t have a quiver of modern bikes to compare it too but I felt I struggled a bit on steep and rough terrain before (original fork was garbage for my intended use) and it seems to plough through the rough stuff much better now. Still jumps well and nimble enough to react to unexpected roots and drops. I have noticed a difference climbing but only the really steep stuff (the kind that you should probably not be trying to pedal up) but nothing drastic that makes me want to go back. I can always flip the chip in the rear suspension (takes 5 mins) if I’m going for a long trail ride and that definitely makes it a little sharper.

The comment was sarcastic as I am sure the head angle is NOT 54.5 deg

 

[R120]

I think the key point is actually both the Levo and Decoy occupy the same space in the Market, and IMO are direct rivals rather than enduro vs trail, it’s only there marketing that is different. The Levo is slightly more of an all rounder and the YT a bit more aggressive, but neither are anywhere near as full on gravity focused as a lot of other EMTB’s

There are plenty of far more longer travel more “super enduro” bikes out there than the YT, and the YT is far more comparable to the Levo than it is to a Kenevo.

 

[Davey S]

The comment was sarcastic as I am sure the head angle is NOT 54.5 deg

?‍ Yes that would be 64.5 ? Doh!!

 

[MarkH]

I think the key point is actually both the Levo and Decoy occupy the same space in the Market, and IMO are direct rivals rather than enduro vs trail, it’s only there marketing that is different. The Levo is slightly more of an all rounder and the YT a bit more aggressive, but neither are anywhere near as full on gravity focused as a lot of other EMTB’s

There are plenty of far more longer travel more “super enduro” bikes out there than the YT, and the YT is far more comparable to the Levo than it is to a Kenevo.

After my first run out on my decoy, coming from 2 years on a Levo, I'd echo this. The Decoy rides just like a long travel Levo, nimble but with a bottomless feel. My 2018 Levo only has 135 on the back and that is the most noticable difference in the ride between the 2. Negatives to the Decoy are the noisier engine and slightly more binary power delivery - this will be a problem for some but I'm OK with it. Decoy seems to have better range but then again the battery is 10% bigger. Still tweaking the Decoy and planning to try it in high setting as got a few pedal strikes yesterday. First impressions are it's rapid, flickable and has more pop than the Levo.

 

[Lee Dove]

I think the key point is actually both the Levo and Decoy occupy the same space in the Market, and IMO are direct rivals rather than enduro vs trail, it’s only there marketing that is different. The Levo is slightly more of an all rounder and the YT a bit more aggressive, but neither are anywhere near as full on gravity focused as a lot of other EMTB’s

There are plenty of far more longer travel more “super enduro” bikes out there than the YT, and the YT is far more comparable to the Levo than it is to a Kenevo.

That was 110% my original point in the opening post !!! Thanks.

 

[Camstyn]

i dont get it. you say its the same but then rattle off a list of differences. so are they the same or are they different?
-bottomless feel
-rapid and flickable
-has more pop

wouldnt those differences be attributed to the geometry?

Levo forum slow again today? What point is it you are trying to make? Have you ridden a decoy and disagree with his assessment?

 

[Lee Dove]

Levo forum slow again today? What point is it you are trying to make? Have you ridden a decoy and disagree with his assessment?

Ignore him , he is just Trolling ... Again .

 

[Camstyn]

Ignore him , he is just Trolling ... Again .

Sometimes I know I shouldn’t take the bait but can’t resist the fun, LOL

 

[routrax]

specialized spends $250K on a new hydroforming machine so they can make tubing in complex shapes with varying thicknesses to dampen vibrations, distribute loads and provide unique clearances...

some guy on the internet: oi all tubing thicknesses, etc are just for weight.


just because you taught at uni for 41 years doesnt mean youre an engineer with all the knowledge in the world. thats why there are specializations for different disciplines.

You misunderstand what engineer actually means.

It means you don't know everything, but what you don't know you will figure out in a systematic and methodical manor to solve a problem.

 

[MarkH]

i dont get it. you say its the same but then rattle off a list of differences. so are they the same or are they different?
-bottomless feel
-rapid and flickable
-has more pop

wouldnt those differences be attributed to the geometry?

OK to put it into perspective my mate's have a couple of Haibike enduros with 180 travel and they are like monster trucks compared to the Levo: plough thru everything but are the polar opposites when it comes to agility. I'm guessing the Kenevo is along these lines (I would expect Spesh want to make them different) but that is supposition on my part as I haven't ridden a Ken. The Decoy is like a Levo wrt to agility but has longer legs (possibly not as long at the Ken). I would describe it as a Levo with (I'm guessing) 90% the capability of a Kenevo, or another way a lighter more agile Kenevo.
Whether that's a result of geometry or whatever I have no idea, I just ride the thing.
Oh and just my opinion. No science just personal view and it should be borne in mind this is a comparison between a decoy and an 2018 Levo and not a 2019.

 

[mitch1808]

That was 110% my original point in the opening post !!! Thanks.

Hes comparing it to the 2018 Levo, that from what I understand wasn't as nimble and well done as the 2019?

 

[Lee Dove]

Hes comparing it to the 2018 Levo, that from what I understand wasn't as nimble and well done as the 2019?

My response here was to R120 not the post about the 2018 Levo. My understanding is that the 2019 is a much better bike (from the guys in the shop) and have only ridden a 2019.