*sigh*
Friggen moto bringing this troll bait in here...
I don’t think you upset anyone else motorcycle and cycling go together for lots of riders , and ebike sits right between the two ,Has Gary logged into his alt account?
I apologise if I upset you guys, I suppose I was trolling. I mean, I know perfectly well that on any given forum, you get the single minded chest beaters who pass off a myriad of unsubstantiated facts, as actual facts, and then feel like they can lord it over the guys that 'just don't know better'. Tyring to post an opinion on an internet forum was obviously a reckless thing to do.
You'll notice I stopped posting in this thread earlier, not because I'm upset or precious, quite the contrary. My old man used to tell me "never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" ? I'm not calling Gary, Varaxis or anyone else in this thread an idiot, but you get where I'm going with it.
On another note, my quote above might not be here long, the last time I used an offensive word like 'stupid' it was moderated. Gary must just be lucky I suppose
Anyway, I'm off to the Holden forum to post a picture of Allan Moffat.
You can only make your own mind up on the value of something. Cost is something completely different.
One thing many people forget is the engineering of a full suspension MTB is actually trickier than that of a Motorbike, since you have to factor in peddling and the human input into how the suspension operates, which you dont have to on a motorbike. This is one of the reasons why in the MTB industry there has been constant costly redesign and redevelopment of bikes to try and reach an ideal suspension platform.
That doesn't mean that I don't think an MTB is expensive compared to a motorbike,
You comment on suspension shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues that lay with suspension design on an MTB, again their are multiple articles about this which are interesting and informative.
Being motor powered vs human powered means you are talking about a completely different set of dynamics and variable effecting the suspension, and the design needs. An MTB's suspension has to perform well under more parameters than that of a motorbike.
A dirt bikes suspension system is relatively simple, with the majority of tuning defined by the shock set up - on an MTB the suspension design itself is far more complex, and exampled by the multiple different systems on the market place which look to solve the many issues.
The suspension on an MTB has to behave very differently going up a hill to going down a hill, and has to work well when pedalling and when not pedalling - A motorbike does not have to deal with pedal bob, does not have to deal with the gears being on a derailleur at the back of the swing arm and the multiple issues this causes with suspension design having to accommodate the resulting chain growth/movement. You have to take into account pedal kick back introduced by the suspension to the pedalling platform. The much lighter weight of an MTB also causes a lot of suspension design issues, anti squat, brake jack etc etc etc.
In short MTB suspension needs to be far more efficient than that on an motorbike, and as such is more complex, because there are times when you effectively want the suspension to do nothing, and times when you want it to do a lot, all the time whilst taking into account pedalling inputs. On a motorbike you have the ability to introduce instant power to the drivetrain to influence the rear suspension, on an MTB you do not. A motorbike is much heavier, meaning deflection isn't an issue like it is on bicycles, and the ratio of unsprung mass is far higher than on an MTB.
I would refer you to articles in bike magazines, but then i guess they are coming from a biased standpoint!
As an FYI I am as into Motorbikes as any other two wheel contraptions, with multiple Huskies, KTMs, and more having hit the dirt under me, and also multiple track bikes, and even a few hardtail chops thrown into the mix - I am no suspension expert but have spent enough time on both motorbikes and bikes, and enough money modifying them, to know the differences.
Excellent, forget all the value BS, this is 100% the point I was making. Case closed, thank you.
Fundamentally disagree. Pull an mtb air shock to bits and dirtbike shock to bit's and see which one has more bits. It's a more complicated system for a reason and makes your average airshock with only pressure and 6 clicks of rebound adjustment look like a toy.
However, the original point around suspension complexity was tied into it's atttributed cost to the overall cost of the bike and, there can be no argueing that a dirtbike shock costs more to produce than a MTB shock...though I'm sure you'll find a way. It's bigger, requires more material, has more bits and even basic models have high and low speed compression and rebound damping circuits. You don't get that on an MTB shock until you're buying high end gear.
Hi mate.Hey Gary, I just saw some data that suggests KTM sold 280,000 bikes last year. Giant bicycles sold 6.6 million.
It seems you only have an understanding of the bicycle not the motorcycleWhen you selective quote, you close the case for only yourself - as I said I look at the value of an MTB next to the value of another MTB, its irrelevant to me what an MTB, or a motorbikes, or a car's, or a house's value is to each other - perceived value is subjective so to try and define it unilaterally is a waste of time, so yes you are right in that for you its a relevant comparison of value, but I am right in that for me its not - no wrong answer other than the one that makes you happy, and if your happy, then I am happy for you! The fact I think a bike might be expensive compared to a motorbike, doesn't mean that I don't also think the bike in question might be good value.
With suspension you have both missed my point, and proven it - I am not talking about the shock itself, but the suspension design and kinematic - motorcycles have bigger and more complex shocks - as I said a motorcycles suspension is predominately defined by the shock set up, whereas a bicycles is by the inherent design of the suspension platform, and the shock is tuned/chosen to work with this.
I totally agree with you, bicycle shocks are far simpler than that on a motorbike, but the suspension designs and requirements are far more complex on an MTB. You simply cannot realistically replicate the tuneabiltiy and set up possibilities of a motorbike shock with an MTB shock for two main reasons - weight and friction - a motorcycle shock is heavier due to its complexity, and can have wider tolerance of friction as the bike itself weighs more and facilitates the action of the suspension inherently better than a low weight MTB. There are companies like EXT who are trying to combine their years of experience in both fields, but they are pretty much the outlier.
So my point was not at all about shock design, but about suspension design, because engineering a rear end that works well on an MTB is more complex, and has more variables than doing so on an motorbike - managing chain growth, chain line and pedal kick back alone are things that are not a factor on a motorbike - the complexity of the shock itself is not what I am talking about at all.
Put simply a motorbikes suspension has to be able to provide grip, dampening, and control - a bicycles has to do the same plus deal with peddling forces, both accommodating and not affecting them, whilst at the same time being as efficient as possible because a human doesn't have the power of a 6Ohp motor to overcome any resistance, and needs the suspension to minimise power loss as much as possible whilst climbing or peddling hard.
I am not trying to have an argument, merely saying that suspension design on a bike is more complex than that on an motorcycle, because there are more variables, and more constraints governing the design - you only have to look at the variety of different suspension designs within the MTB market all looking to solve the same issues to get an idea of that.
Yaaaaawwwnnn
*long sigh*
How predictable. Yet another guy with "moto" or "mx" in his title whinging about bicycle prices.
I haven't even bothered reading all of your reply as I know how this cliche always goes...
Firstly the motor industry is completely different to the cycle industry making comparison rather pointless.
But if you are to compare the end products pricing at least compare like for like.
I don't really care what an entry level motorcycle costs. Do you care what an entry level bicycle costs?
If we are to compare comparing motorcycles to bicycles. Please compare like for like.
Ie. Have a look at how much it woukd cost you to buy the exact bike last year's cycling world champions in each discipline rode.
Now look at what it would cost you to buy last year's World championship winning motorcycles.
PS. This also highlights just how over biked most punters actually are in cycling. Emtb especially.
Interesting article that. I like Fred’s honesty best.Why Are Good Bikes so Expensive? | Gear Patrol
High-end road and mountain bikes can cost as much as — or more than — a decent used car. But why?www.gearpatrol.com
This article was a very insightful read. The KTM MBR one too, regarding how these top-end race bikes are a thing since people can actually afford them, whereas KTM bikes on the showroom floor are base level. I just don't like how the industry guys are spinning it, suggesting they're on some Apple innovation cycle. I can't deny it. I just find it repulsive. SRAM is extremely guilty of it, and I avoid them (and Apple) for it. I wish they'd wait for something bigger
To be honest, I'm very hopeful that emtbs adopt a lot of moto tech. People on normal MTB forums are incredibly conservative. They're the ones demanding incremental improvements through materials and small design tweaks. They're the ones harshly criticizing things for looking different. They belly-ache over high weight. They're a certain kind of Luddite. They're here too, ogling the Orbea Rise or Levo SL and criticizing Chris Porter...
Tech is like what the mp3 and CD did to the vinyl record. It's like going from combustion to electric. It's not like what the space frame design (welded tubes in triangular/truss-like pattern) did for racing cars over stamped plates and beams--space frames required specialized and skilled hands-on labor the R&D needs to be validated for every reiteration. The bicycle already had a space frame. It's been elevated to an art form, with bike enthusiasts ogling over stacked dimes for welds. We're paying for art... one-piece monocoque was the next step engineering challenge, and it happened to become mainstream, despite fears of lower impact resistance. The marketing eventually sank in and got ppl to pay 50% more. People know they're idiots for paying this much to save weight that can be compared to a fresh heap of ... err, I mean eating fewer cookies.
Those ebikes for sale on Amazon, that Zimmerman posted as examples, represent the reality of applying tech without art. Elevating the function and form raises the price. It'd be fairer to compare a Sur Ron X (Black Edition) with a Honda CFR250 seems like a step in the electric-powered direction, to showcase the benefits like reduced maintenance/mess, reduced noise, and instant torque.
I have to admit that familiarity reigns, even for me. As much as I want to claim that I'm open-minded, I can't. I criticized designs like the Marin Mt Vision (and Wolfridge, and the Polygon version). Designs like the Tantrum rear suspension is intriguing, but it's easy to convince me to wait until it's more refined to be elegant before buying on. I'm used to the handling and utility of a mtb, able to get the saddle slammed low for letting loose, and raising it to pedal efficiently, and able to get the bike around gates and transport it normally. I want to still be able to ride with my ride crew but am hopelessly in love with the idea of owning only one bike. That's why I end up looking at bikes like the Whyte E180, Marin Alpine Trail E2, and the Forestal Siryon. I like the idea of using the space in front of the BB/motor for battery storage, to keep weight low and centered, to not compromise on handling. It's a mix of wanting function and form, but not wanting to pay for what's essentially bike jewelry.
Sorry, long-winded way of saying that I'm extremely impressed by moto tech, am envious, but at the same time hate how I was seemingly groomed into buying all this expensive push-bike/acoustic-bike stuff, based on the idea that it's some superbike like a Ducati Superleggera V4. I'd love for ebikes to be comparable, but fear that they become something totally different. I've posted basically the same argument before, and people essentially pointed to the Sur Ron, which I passed on. My money's going towards a Marin Alpine Trail E2, because my current emtb is falling apart, and I don't have the patience to wait for Shimano's motor revision in which the integrated battery slides up the downtube in front of the motor like on the Whyte. Sorry for driving up the prices... I see it as something more my style, compared to a Honda Africa Twin or KTM Super Adventure, since it lets me access sweet singletrack that normally would be off-limits to motos while making the moto-legal stuff more enjoyable (especially those stupidly steep climbs that go straight up the hill).
In other words, I just need the bike to be light enough to pick up easily, which happens to be also light enough to make it easier to pedal and handle for me. I understand why people set familiar numbers to things like price and weight, but I learned that those aren't really that important to me in the end. I shopped for "cheap", getting a $3600 ebike that weighed 50 lbs, but I stopped keeping track of money and weight as I tweaked it. I tried to make it lighter, but I bet it's back up to over 55 lbs by now after realizing that I need beefier parts. It prob cost me over $2500 extra to get it to this point too. My shitty decision-making skills "improved" from my experience, to be open to spending $6000 for a 55 lb bike that only goes 15-20 mph and makes whiny electric motor noises, as I more clearly know myself and what I want. I doubt that normal people would understand.
The World's largest electric mountain bike community.