Cost theory of EBikes by weight.

[Kernow]

Yaaaaawwwnnn
*long sigh*
How predictable. Yet another guy with "moto" or "mx" in his title whinging about bicycle prices.
I haven't even bothered reading all of your reply as I know how this cliche always goes...
Firstly the motor industry is completely different to the cycle industry making comparison rather pointless.

But if you are to compare the end products pricing at least compare like for like.
I don't really care what an entry level motorcycle costs. Do you care what an entry level bicycle costs?
If we are to compare comparing motorcycles to bicycles. Please compare like for like.
Ie. Have a look at how much it woukd cost you to buy the exact bike last year's cycling world champions in each discipline rode.
Now look at what it would cost you to buy last year's World championship winning motorcycles.

PS. This also highlights just how over biked most punters actually are in cycling. Emtb especially.

why is that Yaaaawn ,many mtb riders are also off road motorcycle riders , the two are so similar

Have you looked at a top end enduro bike like ktm etc it certainly does make any bicycle look very expensive and overpriced , there a massive amount more development engineering and technology in the motorbike .
However it’s about numbers sold after that development cost that dictates the price , the cost per unit .
it would be great to know the actual manufacturer profit comparison of each and vs The number of units actually sold .

I don’t see what last years winning bike value has to do with anything , that’s is so dependant on the particular dicipline ie a moto gp is almost a one off item costing millions , you probably could even buy it whereas a wsb motorbike or ews bicycle are all pretty much factory bikes, thier only real value is how famous that racer became , the rear bikes are generally knackered

talking of wieght / cost ratio yesterday on trek thread we worked out that with identical spec bikes , except one carbon frame the other alloy , the wieght saving is costing 1k per kilo

 

[Zimmerframe]

I don’t see what last years winning bike value has to do with anything , that’s is so dependant on the particular dicipline ie a moto gp is almost a one off item costing millions , you probably could even buy it whereas a wsb motorbike or ews bicycle are all pretty much factory bikes, thier only real value is how famous that racer became , the rear bikes are generally knackered

I think what he's (the grumpy one) saying is that we can all head to the supermarket and buy an e-bike for £500.

But we don't. We go and buy the bikes we have for 3-4-5-6-10-12-14 thousand euro's ..

If you compared the cheapo bike (€500) with a cheapo motorbike (€5000) there would be a huge order of magnitude difference in price.

However, if you took a step back and look at what you get when you buy a 4-5-6-7k whatever bike, it's basically exactly the same as a world championship bike, using all the same components. The bikes most of us ride are not far off being duplicates of the top end race bikes in use.

If you then look at an off road motorcycle. Yup, it's great and does most things. But if you then start looking at the same bike used for professional racing at a world level - the component costs then increase the cost of the bike 10 fold - At least !

What Gary said, is that most of us are basically overbiked and are riding around on crazily overspecked racing machines - because whilst they're expensive - they're still in a ball park price range that we justify paying - rather than going to the supermarket.

Where as most of us who are into motorcycling, buy an off the shelf bike and then might make a few tweaks to it, but very few of us will buy the factory version because the price is no longer what we consider reasonable - not that we consider eMTB's reasonable either - but we do it because we can.

 

[mak]

I'm not wealthy buy any means but I don't think 4-6k is expensive for these bikes, I cannot see how you could ever buy a decent spec emtb for 2k.
A quick glance at something without a motor at over 3k ( and there's plenty) actually makes me think how the hell are our bikes so cheap lol.

 

[Gary]

don’t see what last years winning bike value has to do with anything

Simply as any of us could buy the exact same bike with the exact same spec as Reese Wilson's race bike for around £7k whereas to ride the same mx bike as Eli Tomac you'd need to spend £50k+ apart from both having 2 wheels motocross and mtb are world's apart in so many ways it's utterly pointless to use the two as comparison.
And that's without going into an economics debate over how the two industries are run.

 

[Gary]

talking of wieght / cost ratio yesterday on trek thread we worked out that with identical spec bikes , except one carbon frame the other alloy , the wieght saving is costing 1k per kilo

My bike is over 2kg lighter than your Trek, has no carbon at all and cost a lot less.
If you want a light bike don't buy a TREK.

 

[Gary]

it would be great to know the actual manufacturer profit comparison of each and vs The number of units actually sold .

Profit per motor vehicle sold is higher than bicycles. And massively more motor vehicles are sold per year than high end (say £3k+) bicycles.
They're also sold a very different way.

I really didn't want to get drawn into an economics debate but
using Trek as an example. Partly because you have one. But mainly because as one of the top 3 bicycle companies their business model is closer to that of an automotive company's than any of the smaller bicycle manufacturers.
Trek is reportedly worth $1bn
While Honda is worth $100bn+
Just as an example of one of the smaller bicycle manufacturers YT Industries is reportedly worth just $20m

 

[Gary]

TLDR? Wot Zims said

 

[Kernow]

I think what he's (the grumpy one) saying is that we can all head to the supermarket and buy an e-bike for £500.

But we don't. We go and buy the bikes we have for 3-4-5-6-10-12-14 thousand euro's ..

If you compared the cheapo bike (€500) with a cheapo motorbike (€5000) there would be a huge order of magnitude difference in price.

However, if you took a step back and look at what you get when you buy a 4-5-6-7k whatever bike, it's basically exactly the same as a world championship bike, using all the same components. The bikes most of us ride are not far off being duplicates of the top end race bikes in use.

If you then look at an off road motorcycle. Yup, it's great and does most things. But if you then start looking at the same bike used for professional racing at a world level - the component costs then increase the cost of the bike 10 fold - At least !

What Gary said, is that most of us are basically overbiked and are riding around on crazily overspecked racing machines - because whilst they're expensive - they're still in a ball park price range that we justify paying - rather than going to the supermarket.

Where as most of us who are into motorcycling, buy an off the shelf bike and then might make a few tweaks to it, but very few of us will buy the factory version because the price is no longer what we consider reasonable - not that we consider eMTB's reasonable either - but we do it because we can.

That would be fair enough if the facts or comparisons were correct , but they aren’t .you could go buy.cheapo motorbike for about £2k or much less which would be on a par with the £500 supermarket ebike niether would last a day off road , ie cheapo rubbish , but that’s not the comparison we’re making here is it .
you have to compare like for like , so for instance let’s compare the top the range enduro ebike circa £ 10 k and a top of the range enduro motorbike bike £8-10 k , both bikes are pretty much world champion winning bikes off the shelf factory riders of each bike at that level probably have a few mods that may cost a few thousand extra maybe so there really is little in the cost of the actual machine . but the fact remains there’s a hell of a lot more to tge equivalent motorbike for about the same cost to buy , there isn’t a gold plated factory special that really costs much more , certainly no more than there is available in bicycles .
iether Way motorbikes do make bicycles and ebikes way overpriced .
Let’s face it and there are examples out there proving with a relatively small investment , you could draw up a set of frame plans , get that frame made in Taiwan in bulk and import it , fit various levels of group set and suspension to it and market it at near top end prices .
what would it take to develop a top end enduro motorbike , it’s impossible unless your an engineering giant

 

[Kernow]

Profit per motor vehicle sold is higher than bicycles. And massively more motor vehicles are sold per year than high end (£3k+) bicycles.
They're also sold a very different way.

How do you know that , based on what facts , motor vehicle Is too great a generalisation , you have refine that comparison to even argue the differences .

 

[Gary]

I've edited a previous post for you Kernow.

 

[Gary]

Let’s face it and there are examples out there proving with a relatively small investment , you could draw up a set of frame plans , get that frame made in Taiwan in bulk and import it , fit various levels of group set and suspension to it and market it at near top end prices

Haha..
I'm not sure what your point is here.
If you did do all that, after marketing and distribution your profit margin would be less than any of the larger established brands and risk vs investment massive

 

[Kernow]

My bike is over 2kg lighter than your Trek, has no carbon at all and cost a lot less.
If you want a light bike don't buy a TREK.

Based on what ? What bike are you comparing to my trek which has no carbon at all not sure what your point is , . If you want a lite bike do t buy an ebike I would say

 

[Gary]

You said you'd worked out it would cost a grand to get your Trek 1kg lighter.
My bike is already 2kg lighter than your TREK and cost a lot less.
(Based on how heavy my bike is, how heavy yours is and what each COST) .

As you already know I have quite a few bikes ranging from 17lb all the way up to 47lb.
Ideally I like an mtb to weigh between 25 and 40lb depending on use and far prefer the handling of normal bikes because of the weight difference. And because of my preference I wouldn't actually want an Ebike at all that weighed over 50lb. I see that as the point the handling begins to suffer.

 

[Kernow]

Haha..
I'm not sure what your point is here.
If you did do all that, after marketing and distribution your profit margin would be less than any of the larger established brands and risk vs investment massive

My point is there are brands out there that have begun that way in recent years in exactly that way and have been successful

 

[Gary]

And?...

Ie. What has this got to do with a bunch of tight motorcyclists whining about bicycle prices being too high?

 

[Pivot]

eMTB firms do and will charge what the market is prepared to pay. And right now is Bonanza! So why the hell not.

Many premium eMTBs are built in a mega-factory in Taiwan in large volumes, bringing cost per unit right down. This gives them extra margin... good for them!

The other day I spoke to my LBS, they sold 400 ebikes last year and have orders for 300 for this year. They can sell whatever stock they can get! Sadly, they cannot get enough stock to satisfy their customers.

So we can cry in the bucket, or get over it and go for a ride! For me eMTB is worth every penny. Good exercise, fun to ride, a bit of technology... and most importantly, it presses my caveman buttons

 

[Kernow]

Simply as any of us could buy the exact same bike with the exact same spec as Reese Wilson's race bike for around £7k whereas to ride the same mx bike as Eli Tomac you'd need to spend £50k+ apart from both having 2 wheels motocross and mtb are world's apart in so many ways it's utterly pointless to use the two as comparison.
And that's without going into an economics debate over how the two industries are run.

That’s a poor example Eli Tomacs race bike is said to be worth that in press articles simply because it’s been adorned with lots of bling mods the fact is he would still win on a standard bike that’s how they do things on the American supercross circuit , because they can and not from necesity
look at some top motorcycle enduro riders , thier bikes have no more mods than you see on the equivalent works riders bicycle

are you going to take each sentence of what I wrote and turn it into a seperate post , it’s going to get very boring .

 

[Clubby]

You said you'd worked out it would cost a grand to get your Trek 1kg lighter.
My bike is already 2kg lighter than your TREK and cost a lot less.
(Based on how heavy my bike is, how heavy yours is and what each COST) .

As you already know I have quite a few bikes ranging from 17lb all the way up to 47lb.
Ideally I like an mtb to weigh between 25 and 40lb depending on use and far prefer the handling of normal bikes because of the weight difference. And because of my preference I wouldn't actually want an Ebike at all that weighed over 50lb. I see that as the point the handling begins to suffer.

Not been on the forum that long, so may well have missed this but what ebike do you have Gary? Brief spec/battery size etc would be appreciated.

 

[Gary]

Eli came in 13th at R1 Huston after two offs. on a stock bike he wouldn't have made it back to 13th.
Comparing high end race orientated bicycles against high end race motorcycles is not a poor example. It's a very fair one. You simply don't like it as it doesn't fit with your argument.

I was yawning at this thread 13 hours ago. Do I need to point out who has quoting me in it most often?

 

[Kernow]

Not been on the forum that long, so may well have missed this but what ebike do you have Gary? Brief spec/battery size etc would be appreciated.

He didn’t say incase a comparison was made and a constructive answer was given , I did ask

 

[Gary]

@Clubby 1999 Esommet VR - E8000/504wh fairly stock apart from running a 10 speed Zee drivetrain and my pref saddle, grips & pedals (£3.1k and 21.4kg with pedals)

Grow up Kernow. My bike is no secret.

 

[Kernow]

Eli came in 13th at R1 Huston after two offs. on a stock bike he wouldn't have made it back to 13th.
Comparing high end race orientated bicycles against high end race motorcycles is not a poor example. It's a very fair one. You simply don't like it as it doesn't fit with your argument.

I was yawning at this thread 13 hours ago. Do I need to point out who has quoting me in it most often?

Then ignore the thread if you don’t like it , if you can’t give it reasonable constructive input without insulting or belittling people then don’t post . Yours first post was just after the first reply , which was rude and tried to shut it down , then you reacted to moto in a rude and derogatory way because you seem have some kind of dislike for motorcycles , or comparisons with motorcycles . Why?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Then ignore the thread if you don’t like it , if you can’t give it reasonable constructive input without insulting or belittling people then don’t post . Yours first post was just after the first reply , which was rude and tried to shut it down , then you reacted to moto in a rude and derogatory way because you seem have some kind of dislike for motorcycles , or comparisons with motorcycles . Why?

Ignore Gary, his only outlet is winding up people on the forum until they get flicked. Never sure why his card hasn't been marked as he does bring a lot of threads to a closure.

 

[Kernow]

@Clubby 1999 Esommet VR - E8000/504wh fairly stock apart from running a 10 speed Zee drivetrain and my pref saddle, grips & pedals (£3.1k and 21.4kg with pedals)

Grow up Kernow. My bike is no secret.

Grow up ?? pot kettle black there . so your battery is a great deal of that saving , it’s a size small I think , has a smaller lighter fork . and smaller wheels , its a similar wieght to my commencal that was a similar spec , your happy with that bike for what you do , I considered the wieght gain for a more advanced motor and a lot more range and a bike I prefer to ride acceptable , or do we need a pissing contest here about it ?

 

[Gary]

I don't know how you've come to the conclusion I don't like motorcycles? I do like motorcycles. But they are hugely irrelevant to bicycles. Motorcyclists whining about the cost of bicycles not so much. So why keep bringing them and their cost into bicycle discussions?.

Where exactly have I insulted anyone?

 

[Kernow]

Ignore Gary, his only outlet is winding up people on the forum until they get flicked. Never sure why his card hasn't been marked as he does bring a lot of threads to a closure.

Very true it’s quite sad in a way , but I just wonder how many people came here and don’t bother to input because of it . It’s piss poor behavior for someone who keeps telling us he’s qualified to teach , when I did that the first thing we learned was never to become condescending derogatory or belittling or dismissive to people you . Probably why he says he used to teach

 

[Kernow]

I don't know how you've come to the conclusion I don't like motorcycles? I do like motorcycles. But they are hugely irrelevant to bicycles. Motorcyclists whining about the cost of bicycles not so much. So why keep bringing them and their cost into bicycle discussions?.

Where exactly have I insulted anyone?

Seriously Gary if you don’t know where your insulting people then you have a problem . It’s only your opinion what Is or isn’t irrelevant . I’ve not seen another discussion recently with such comparisons , that you consider motorcyclist whining , maybe some threads are seen as done to death and boring by regular members , but that’s the nature of any forum as new people arrive with same questions . If you shut them down they go away , is that what you want ?

 

[Gary]

so your battery is a great deal of that saving , it’s a size small I think , has a smaller lighter fork . and smaller wheels , its a similar wieght to my commencal that was a similar spec , your happy with that bike for what you do , I considered the weight gain for a more advanced motor and a lot more range and a bike I prefer to ride acceptable , or do we need a pissing contest here about it ?

So this is your "constructive comparison"?

Yes. My 504wh battery and it's external placement IS one of the reasons my bike is lighter. I'm also lighter and fitter than you and don't mind riding a 47lb Ebike with the motor switched off so don't I actually need an extra 123wh to achive the same range as you.
Yes. it is a size small. (But longer in both reach and wheelbase than old Commencal was)
your Commie was actually quite a bit heavier. especially in the spec you ran.
Yes. it has 27.5" wheels. I happen to prefer them by miles for their added agility and my preferred riding style.
Yes. it has an E8000 motor - Which I happen to prefer to the Bosch Gen4 as it's a far more natural feeling assiatance.

Almost all 2021 Emtbs have become heavier because of larger internally placed batteries and personally I think it's to the detriment for bike handling. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of increasingly heavier Ebikes.
Believe me. I've considered the weight gain of newer bikes too.

I'm not slagging off you or your bikes... We're just very different riders and have very different preferences

 

[Gary]

@Kernow. Have a read back through your own comments, assumptions and accusations. You have actually been far more insulting and derogatory towards me than I have you.

 

[Kernow]

@Kernow. Have a read back through your own comments, assumptions and accusations. You have actually been far more insulting and derogatory towards me than I have you.

Perhaps but not sure where ? But not to other members who had reasonable inputs and discussion , I hope