Cost theory of EBikes by weight.

[Waynemarlow]

I have a cost theory.

If we take a £ 4K bike as the baseline, which tends to weigh around 23 - 24 kgs, then can we assume its going to cost for every 1Kg saving in weight, its going to cost you £ 1K.

Now we all know weight is not quite so important in EBikes, how do the manufacturers justify the price ?

 

[Mteam]

how do the manufacturers justify the price ?

i ts not just weight that is saved as you spend more money, you also tend to get "better" components:-

- better suspension - higher quality damping, higher quality spring action, ability to adjust to suit your needs etc
- Better brakes - more power at the caliper for a given amount of lever pressure, ability to deal with heat build up better etc
- better drivetrains - smoother shifting, nicer feel at the lever etc

ie they are better at what they do.

some of these are actually heavier than their cheaper counterparts - forks being a great example - fox 38 heavier than 36 for example, but the weight increase is offset by lighter components elsewhere eg carbon frame, lighter wheels ,carbon bars etc etc

so for your extra money you (tend to) get a lighter bike that is also better ,partly because its lighter, but mainly because of the better coponents . The manufacturers dont need to justify it, people will buy them or not, if people dont buy them then they either lower the price, drop the model from the range or go out of business.

 

[Gary]

Not this pish again.
No you can't assume a cost per gram.

If you're on a budget but want a light bike buy a cheaper lighter bike in the first place

 

[Singletrack Scene]

Buy, ride and appreciate. When I buy an Ebike, weight is the last thing on my mind. You're potentially opening a can of worms, that's completely In danger of becoming too subjective, or too objective. They're expensive. - But the latest Samsung Galaxy Phone is £1,500.

 

[Stihldog]

Sometimes we get what we pay for. I use my eMTB on a regular basis and regular maintenance is a necessity. I still chew thru brakes, chains and any other consumables. We’ll see wether I purchased at the right time.
I don’t see many young riders with eMTB but if I do, I wonder how the heck can they can afford that?

 

[Mikerb]

Sometimes we get what we pay for. I use my eMTB on a regular basis and regular maintenance is a necessity. I still chew thru brakes, chains and any other consumables. We’ll see wether I purchased at the right time.
I don’t see many young riders with eMTB but if I do, I wonder how the heck can they can afford that?

sponsored!! (Bank of Dad)

 

[steve_sordy]

I noticed about ten years ago, that if ever I wanted to buy anything for my bike where I had a choice of options, like for example a saddle, that the cost of the expensive saddle vs the cheaper ones was about £1/per gram. In fact the first I noticed, it was exactly £1/gm on WTB Rocket V saddles. Thereafter I kept an eye open and kept seeing this. I full accept that my observations may just be confirmation bias and I'm only seeing what I want to see. But it keeps cropping up. There must be many exceptions to this of course, and because of my confirmation bias I don't notice those! The other odd "fact" is that others see it too and it is still happening (see the OP).

However, as convenient as it may be, I have to accept that it is all bollocks. The manufacturers of bikes and components are mostly not operating in the UK and have no bias towards pricing differentials at £1 per gram. And why "per gram", why not per (choose your imperial unit).
The other factor if course is the currency. If it was in dollars, Euros, or Won then the single unit of currency per gram would not hold up. Maybe there are similar discussions going on in other countries at different break points?

I suspect that this is all down to the natural ability of humans to see patterns, mostly where none exist (clouds, constellations, man in the moon....)

 

[mak]

Not this pish again.
No you can't assume a cost per gram.

If you're on a budget but want a light bike buy a cheaper lighter bike in the first place

You do make me laugh, have you ever thought of a career in teaching lol.
As Gary states in a very diplomatic way there's no reasoning behind price structure after a certain level, this applies to everything. After that its the bullshit factor.
If you have the money to go beyond the bullshit factor then good for you, there's no justification needed apart from " I can afford it" which is how the bullshit factor works.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

sponsored!! (Bank of Dad)

maybe they work hard ??

as for the OP. I don’t think there are any 10k full fat emtbs at around 17kg so the theory is a little flawed to say the least....

 

[Gary]

I have actually taught for a living @mak .
Make of that what you will

 

[Pdoz]

So, 1k per kg? So 29 k for something that floats and, er, a lot more for something that can lift me off the ground?

Interestingly, that 1 k per kg is about the cost of most human weight loss programs.

Nasa is getting ripped off

 

[>moto<]

then can we assume its going to cost for every 1Kg saving in weight, its going to cost you £ 1K.

Uh no, you really can't.

- better suspension - higher quality damping, higher quality spring action, ability to adjust to suit your needs etc

Tell me more about this higher quality spring action.

 

[Mteam]

Tell me more about this higher quality spring action.

Sure - less stiction, more sensitivity over small bumps, less harsh top outs and bottom outs, more end user adjustability of all those things (except stiction), example suntour xcr fork vs fox 34 (or 36,38)

 

[>moto<]

Sure - less stiction, more sensitivity over small bumps, less harsh top outs and bottom outs, more end user adjustability of all those things (except stiction), example suntour xcr fork vs fox 34 (or 36,38)

I see. I thought you were referring to the actual spring, but it seems you mean improved compliance from better seals and rebound/compression valving. Let's go with 'fork action'

Fundamentally, top outs and bottom outs are more a function of the amount rebound damping you have dialled in and the fork/shock air pressure. If you upgrade from a Yari to Lyrik you don't get better bottom out protection.

 

[Waynemarlow]

But you guys condoning the latest and greatest as being worth more than 1k per 1kg ( a kilo of silver is only £760.00 ) still haven’t convinced me that for every 1k spent to buy a “better“ bike, we as riders can actually utilise that small incremental gain from a slightly better feeling front fork. My gut feeling is that manufacturers love you guys when you buy that super dooper all singing and dancing 20kg bike for 6k.

Can I throw something in here, if we took a £ 4500 bike + £1000 in riding lessons + £ 1000 in holidays riding your bike v a £ 6500 bike owner, which rider would enjoy their bike the most ?

 

[The Hodge]

I would probably go for the option you threw in ..but didn't as the logistics of that would probably get me into trouble with the missus ..disregarding the same cost the fact I was going to buy a bike..have some lessons ..and then go on holiday just wouldnt "get over the line " to quote a Pardewism ( football manager who was particularly fond of that saying )

 

[R120]

With EMTB's often the higher up models weigh more, because they have burlier components on - e.g a Zeb or 38 is going to weigh more than a Lyric or 36.

Essentially you are paying for more bling on a high end EMTB , and one of the beauties of EMTB's is that with many bikes the basic model is the same frame, motor, battery etc, and in many ways a more sensible option as you can then put the parts you want on rather than some marketing guys idea of a dream bike.

Of course its a slightly different game with the lighterwieght lower powered emtb's, but then again it seems a lot of owners get them and then start putting heavier components on!

 

[>moto<]

But you guys condoning the latest and greatest as being worth more than 1k per 1kg ( a kilo of silver is only £760.00 ) still haven’t convinced me that for every 1k spent to buy a “better“ bike, we as riders can actually utilise that small incremental gain from a slightly better feeling front fork. My gut feeling is that manufacturers love you guys when you buy that super dooper all singing and dancing 20kg bike for 6k.

Can I throw something in here, if we took a £ 4500 bike + £1000 in riding lessons + £ 1000 in holidays riding your bike v a £ 6500 bike owner, which rider would enjoy their bike the most ?

I'm not sure very many people here are condoning the '1k per 1kg' except the OP. Like most discretionary purchases there is a large component of emotion attached as well as simply buying soemthing you can afford. I don't think there is any argument that riding more is the biggest thing that will improve your riding and fun factor.

Manufacturers love people who buy their cheap bikes as well, becuase at the prices currently being charged for MTB's in general, they are making a killing. 4.5K for an MTB is still 4.5k.

 

[R120]

There is also a big difference between various EMTB's as to how "lite" the feel to ride vs their real world weight, which is all down to weight placement and design.

The Whyte's are a good example of this, as despite being circa 24/25kg IIRC due to how they have positioned the weight, and the geometry, they dont feel that heavy when you ride them.

Really if I was looking at a new emtb right now, this is what I would have at the forefront of my decision making process - a lot of bikes with the bigger batteries have the weight far further forward up the down tube, and this IMO makes the bikes feel heavier, as its harder to get the front end up, and place the bike - it can also lead to a flip flop feeling when turning.

I think you have to throw conventional thinking on weight slightly out the window with full power EMTB's - yes getting the weight down is still relevant, but not as relevant as having the weight in the right area on the bike in the first place.

 

[Gary]

becuase at the prices currently being charged for MTB's in general, they are making a killing.

"They're" really not mate.

4.5K for an MTB is still 4.5k.

to you the punter, yes.
But...
Do you somehow think designers, engineers, materials, labour, production, assembly, parts and factory/warehouse/office running costs and advertising/marketing etc. cost nothing?
Take all those costs (and more) off that 4.5k and actual profit is only a fraction of that figure. Not to mention the fact it is split between the manufacturer, distributor, shop and the tax man. (who funnily enough all also have running costs to cover)

Punters believing they're somehow being ripped off baffles me.

 

[Varaxis]

It's like $1000 for the motor and frame mount, $750 for the 500-650 Wh battery and mount, plus $250 for the control switch(es), display, and sensors. This adds about 7-8kg to the bike.

Upgrading a premium MTB frame and wheels to carbon can easily rack up $2000 in cost. This can net a 2 kg weight savings total, such as if you're going from a Transition alloy frame to carbon. Weight saving economy is far worse in smaller parts, like carbon or titanium cranks, brake levers, and saddle rails, where you'd be lucky to save 100g per $100.

What would you rather spend the $2000 on? Drop a modest amount of weight, or increase power output and stamina by a large magnitude? Either way, this is not the last expense. When you become so passionate about cycling, you tend to put a lot of your disposable income towards it. Anything that you're not happy with will eventually be addressed...

Even if you're poor, you'll likely end up at this point since physical bike parts have equity. Recover cash by selling it on 2nd-hand-markets and put it into better stuff. Repeat until you're satisfied. The process can be slow if you sink your money into stuff that turns out to be heavy losses, like carbon parts that can't be trusted on the 2nd-hand-market. Making decisions based on price reeks of short-term thinking (instant gratification, Vimes boots theory). Making decisions based on single pivotal issues is already controversially foolish enough (AKA single-issue voting).

Anyways, high-end bike stuff doesn't really have much excess weight in general. Makers offer a variety of options, so the rider themselves can choose what is considered just enough for them. Some riders have higher demands/standards. What's fine for one rider can be excessive to another, or inadequate to another. It's all a compromise of strength, cost, and weight. If you're having trouble picking, then you only have your own lack of knowledge to blame. The better you know your real self, the easier all this decision making becomes. I'm happier not pretending that I'm a racer; what an expensive and excessively foolish mistake that was. No longer needing to ride for the sake of maintaining fitness beyond what's necessary for healthy well-being is liberating. I can ride wherever my heart feels like it, at whatever pace/"sweatiness" I like, without so much preparation and planning.

 

[>moto<]

"They're" really not mate.

to you the punter, yes.
But...
Do you somehow think designers, engineers, materials, labour, production, assembly, parts and factory/warehouse/office running costs and advertising/marketing etc. cost nothing?
Take all those costs (and more) off that 4.5k and actual profit is only a fraction of that figure. Not to mention the fact it is split between the manufacturer, distributor, shop and the tax man. (who funnily enough all also have running costs to cover)

Punters believing they're somehow being ripped off baffles me.

When it costs more to buy an MTB than a full dirtbike with a whole engine full of precison machined components, 48mm suspension, bigger brakes (calipers), magnesium engine cases, a fuel injection sytem, bigger hubs, wider wheels, bigger tyres, lights and all the rest of it....yes, I think MTB's are expensive.

Retail bike shops might not be banking the profits but the people supplying the parts are making some coin.

EDIT: I saw a bike for $21k the other day, you can a cheap new car for that. They have more running costs than a MTB supplier and a higher material cost.

 

[apac]

When it costs more to buy an MTB than a full dirtbike with a whole engine full of precison machined components, 48mm suspension, bigger brakes (calipers), magnesium engine cases, a fuel injection sytem, bigger hubs, wider wheels, bigger tyres, lights and all the rest of it....yes, I think MTB's are expensive.

Retail bike shops might not be banking the profits but the people supplying the parts are making some coin.

EDIT: I saw a bike for $21k the other day, you can a cheap new car for that. They have more running costs than a MTB supplier and a higher material cost.

That's not an electric dirt bike though, is it. ?... unless you buy a shitty under powered and under equipped Sur-Ron light bee. How much are zero, Alto and KTM Ebike's? And where do you legally ride them?

 

[>moto<]

That's not an electric dirt bike though, is it. ?... unless you buy a shitty under powered and under equipped Sur-Ron light bee. How much are zero, Alto and KTM Ebike's? And where do you legally ride them?

That totally isn't the point.

Do you somehow think designers, engineers, materials, labour, production, assembly, parts and factory/warehouse/office running costs and advertising/marketing etc. cost nothing?

A dirtbike would take more time to design, more time to engineer, requires more materials, has higher labour and production costs as well as all the guff mentioend in the quote above.

Are MTB's good value? Comparatively, no, they are not.

 

[>moto<]

I just looked and the Specialized Turbo Levo SL S-Works is $22,300. The closest 2 min google I could find for a 2018 Alto MXR was $15,674 and the Specialized isn't even a full fat eBike

Values are in AUD.

 

[R120]

The cost of motorbikes vs bicycles has been covered as nauseam in many threads - you are looking at a well established industry with many multiples of manufacturing output more than the high end bike industry, where most of the production line is full automated.

A dirt bike, is fundamentally a pretty simple piece of design too, compared to may high end bicycles.

The bicycle industry is still dominated by manual labor, and the high end stuff such as carbon frames are very reliant on manual labor, and have much longer manufacturing times that metal frames.

There is a huge manufacturing cost difference between a basic standard bicycle and a high end one.

No one is arguing that these things aren't stupidly expensive, but it is what it is.

 

[Gary]

Yaaaaawwwnnn
*long sigh*
How predictable. Yet another guy with "moto" or "mx" in his title whinging about bicycle prices.
I haven't even bothered reading all of your reply as I know how this cliche always goes...
Firstly the motor industry is completely different to the cycle industry making comparison rather pointless.

But if you are to compare the end products pricing at least compare like for like.
I don't really care what an entry level motorcycle costs. Do you care what an entry level bicycle costs?
If we are to compare comparing motorcycles to bicycles. Please compare like for like.
Ie. Have a look at how much it woukd cost you to buy the exact bike last year's cycling world champions in each discipline rode.
Now look at what it would cost you to buy last year's World championship winning motorcycles.

PS. This also highlights just how over biked most punters actually are in cycling. Emtb especially.

 

[>moto<]

If we are to compare comparing motorcycles to bicycles. Please compare like for like.
Ie. Have a look at how much it woukd cost you to buy the exact bike last year's cycling world champions in each discipline rode.
Now look at what it would cost you to buy last year's World championship winning motorcycles.

Comparing motorbikes to bicycles is cliche because it's such an obvious comparison as they are very similar. Comparing workd champion is comical, why would I do that, I am not going to buy either. I would consider a top dollar eBike if I thought it represented value just as I have purchased top end dirt bikes.

Despite your prickly demeanour, you usually make valid points but I'm pretty lost with the gem you dropped above.

 

[Gary]

If you're lost try reading all the information you've been given.
Pay particular attention to R120s post.
Too difficult?
The cycle industry is nothing like the motor vehicle industry in management structure, supply or sales .so No. They are not comparable.

And Yes. Comparing top end with top end is the only fair comparison.
And the top end of both is race generally orientated.

 

[Waynemarlow]

And Yes. Comparing top end with top end is the only fair comparison.
And the top end of both is race generally orientated.

Now Gary, you definately bring a slightly shall we say upbeat 200 cadence tempo to the discussion and yes I know you proclaim you can go on for hours at that rate unlike Chris Boardman who ran a steady 100, but can we bring the discussion back to my weight theory on ordinary shop mass produced Emtbs. Can we ignore the out and out race products in this discussion.

The question remains, does having a base engine package thats common across an entire range, an aluminium or carbon frame of roughly equal weight ( sorry chaps but often the hydroformed aluminium frames produced nowadays are lighter than the equivalent carbon frame, ask Trek , yes you can have very special carbon frames at a very light weight, but they will have very little durability ) that has now been so finely honed in design that there's little to no weight savings to be had, suspension thats pretty much similar apart from internals, which leaves just components as the really only things that can " weight save ".

The only other candidate that could come into play would be better design, but we are getting to the point of no returns here I would suspect.

Now the question has to be asked are the weight savings ( all those silver kilo bars ) being sacrificed for probably less durability and less battery power by using lighter weight components and less battery capacity.