Brose 1.3 motor vs Brose 1.2E motor

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I am going to do some testing in the coming weeks on the two motors.

I have a sneaky suspicion that they are now identical motors.

 

[Donnie797]

The 1.2E motor is only built in the 2019 "budget" Kenevo Comp and all other versions (Levo & Kenevo) stay with the 1.3? Or is this a secret yet?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

The 1.2E motor is only built in the 2019 "budget" Kenevo Comp and all other versions (Levo & Kenevo) stay with the 1.3? Or is this a secret yet?

1.2E is in the 2019 Kenevo Comp. 1.3 is in the 2018 Levo and 2018 Kenevo Expert and 2019 Kenevo Expert.

 

[Donnie797]

okay, thanks Rob. I guess there will be a 2019 Levo as well - just curious if it's just color changes or changed specs, too. Would not make sense to change the 1.3 motor to a 1.2E on whatever Levo version cause there are already "budget" Levo models available. Or they go to the 1.2E on the cheaper Levos and upgrade some other components... so many questions, so hard to wait

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

okay, thanks Rob. I guess there will be a 2019 Levo as well - just curious if it's just color changes or changed specs, too. Would not make sense to change the 1.3 motor to a 1.2E on whatever Levo version cause there are already "budget" Levo models available. Or they go to the 1.2E on the cheaper Levos and upgrade some other components... so many questions, so hard to wait

I have a feeling that the 1.2E is a marketing thing.

1.3 motor on the premium bikes
1.2E on the entry level bikes

Lots of speculation about the 2019 Levo here: 2019 Specialized Turbo Levo News & Rumours

 

[Dax]

What was the difference between the 1.2 an the 1.3? I know they added a heat pad to manage temperature better on the 1.3

 

[ccrdave]

lots of different internal components, internal heat sinks revised wire plug system more external heat sinks. they had to improve the heatsink thing for the carbon frames and allow higher sustained power

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

lots of different internal components, internal heat sinks revised wire plug system more external heat sinks. they had to improve the heatsink thing for the carbon frames and allow higher sustained power

Not so sure anymore. In the past yes definitely, but from sources I'm hearing that there are few, if any, internal changes between the motors now.

 

[ccrdave]

Yes those were the changes between the origional 1.2 and 1,3 for the 1.2E who knows but i doubt its the same as the old 1.2

 

[RobbieJay]

Yea, the old motor was the 1.2T and my guess would be that the 1.2E is a revised version of that motor, with a heat pad, new screws etc etc (to counter the overheating issues) but without the new updated 1.3 magnets/internals (so no 15% power increase) to keep costs down.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

without the new magnets/internals (so no 15% power increase) to keep costs down.

That what I want to test.

 

[Donnie797]

Yea, the old motor was the 1.2T and my guess would be that the 1.2E is a revised version of that motor, with a head pad etc to counter the overheating issues, but without the new magnets/internals (so no 15% power increase) to keep costs down.

sounds legit - but i have no clue

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

That what I want to test.

Hi Rob,
Will you be using the BLevo App when you carry out the test?
The reason I ask is BLevo captures the 'Maximum Biker power' and Maximum 'Motor power ' outputs so it should, in theory, give you at least some indication of what the new/older bikes are putting out power wise?

You will need to set the assistance at 100% everything and you will also have to pedal it like you just stole it and are being chased by the cops up a fairly steep hill to for about 5 to 10 seconds to capture this Maximum output reading. You will briefly see this output if you have the display set to show 'Motor power (W) and Biker power (W)

Also, I am not sure how accurate the in built Specialized Power Meter is but I suppose it will at least give you a rough idea of what is being pushed out.

Also, maybe we could start a separate post on 'Who has got the most powerful Levo or Kenevo motor and everyone can submit their outputs so we can compare if we have a donkey or a racehorse . Mine is probably on the donkey side of things as I have a 1.2 engine. I vaguely remember hearing @Tori mention on one of her videos a Motor Power figure of over 700 watts

 

[picrots]

1.3 motors are tuned Brose "Drive S". I wonder if the new 1.2E is the same motor with different tune or they have downgrade to "Drive T" motor.
It would be great if anyone here who has access to the motors (can open the covers) can see the labels on the motor to identify this.

The series number is the only visual difference. The Drive T goes by C 911, while the Drive S is categorized as C 972.

 

[ccrdave]

No need to open covers mission control app will show motor serial number

 

[picrots]

Here are some information I got from specialized dealer regarding new 1.2E motor:

'E' stands for 'Economical'
It has the same hardware as 1.2 motor but it is tuned to consume less energy than 1.2 motor.
Its peak torque at 60 rpm is 60NM compare to 75NM of original 1.2 motor and 90NM of 1.3 motor.
It offers around %30 more ride time compared to regular 1.2 motor with identical battery also around %30 less power.

It might be a good option on a hardtail Levo but it doesn't make any sense on a heavier downhill oriented Kenevo to have weaker motor.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

It has the same hardware as 1.2 motor but it is tuned to consume less energy than 1.2 motor.

Interesting! @PaoloBLEvo

 

[Finch9981]

Interesting! @PaoloB[QUOTE="picrots, post: 11569, member: 652"]Here are some information I got from specialized dealer regarding new 1.2E motor:

'E' stands for 'Economical'
It has the same hardware as 1.2 motor but it is tuned to consume less energy than 1.2 motor.
Its peak torque at 60 rpm is 60NM compare to 75NM of original 1.2 motor and 90NM of 1.3 motor.
It offers around %30 more ride time compared to regular 1.2 motor with identical battery also around %30 less power.

It might be a good option on a hardtail Levo but it doesn't make any sense on a heavier downhill oriented Kenevo to have weaker motor.[/QUOTE]
Evo

hmm not sure if this makes the choice harder or easier £3750 for a comp and £400 on a range extender or get a 2018 expert for 4600.. agree that motor doesn't make sense in the heaver bike

 

[davegixer]

hmm not sure if this makes the choice harder or easier £3750 for a comp and £400 on a range extender or get a 2018 expert for 4600.. agree that motor doesn't make sense in the heaver bike

For me, it has to be the Expert over a Comp with a range extender. Comp with range extender is heavier with less power than the Expert (with no range extender).

 

[davegixer]

One thing is for sure, there are a lot more variables to consider when buying an EMTB compared to a push iron back in the day! (awesome variables though).

 

[picrots]

In where I live they only have comp available. I think if you have access to the expert model and you want the long travel ebike it is a no brainer choice (compare to comp) due to its very sorted spec. In my opinion the compromises on comp version is more than its price drop.

 

[idogliotti]

Hi all! I am about to buy the 2019 kenevo comp (first eMTB). But after doing a little investigation I have doubts regarding to the motor. Why would they put a weaker and older motor than the 2018 turbo levo fsr (it has the 1.3) In a 2019 model? Is the 1.2e brose drive T o Drive S? Anyone tested and compared the 1.3 with the 1.2e?
Thank everyone!!!!

 

[Donnie797]

Hi all! I am about to buy the 2019 kenevo comp (first eMTB). But after doing a little investigation I have doubts regarding to the motor. Why would they put a weaker and older motor than the 2018 turbo levo fsr (it has the 1.3) In a 2019 model? Is the 1.2e brose drive T o Drive S? Anyone tested and compared the 1.3 with the 1.2e?
Thank everyone!!!!

Well it's the old 1.2 motor, but renewed (maybe the "e" means "enhanced"?), so it hopefully has no heat problems anymore.
The reason to do this is explained by the price tag - and for some riders the Comp is exactly the right version, since they will throw out and replace some components anyway and don't need a stronger motor for shuttling up between the serious downhills.
Riding my Kenevo (Expert) for 200km now, I can say that Trail and Turbo in standard settings felt too much of assist for me on my home trails, so I've adjusted the modes down to 20-40-60. Once I had to ramp it back up to 100% when I was totally out of energy and had a severe steep and long climb in front of me. Just telling this, because I now think the weaker 1.2E motor might not be too weak to have fun on the rides - you might just speed up a hill a bit slower

 

[picrots]

Here is what I get from specialized sales representative:

'E' on 1.2e motor stands for 'Economical' - motor is tuned to consume less energy.
It is the same hardware as 1.2 motor but with less peak torque.
1.2 has 75 Nm at 60 rpm cadence while 1.2e has 50 Nm.
1.2e motor offers around 30% more ride time compared to 1.2 motor, with identical battery (also around 30% less power)

So it's the old motor with 2 changes to fix the overheating issue:
1- They used some thermal paste between motor and bike frame to enhance heat transfer.
2- They tune the motor to have lower pick power so it overheat lesser and battery last longer.

I haven't have enough time on my kenevo comp yet due to traveling but on my few tests I didn't get disappointed by motor performance. Unless you planning to race with other ebikes like levo which in my opinion kenevo is not the bike for this purpose.
In my opinion if you have the money go for expert! it's very well spect and totally worth the extra cost but if you can only afford comp version don't think of motor as deal breaker unless it's important to you to compete on climbing.

 

[Bearing Man]

Thought this post might be worth resurrecting if anyone is interested.

The 1.2 and 1.2e have less plates in the motor windings and fewer armature magnet plates compared to the 1.3. The 1.2e is detuned for extra battery range, no other reason.
I have yet to see any of these Brose motors overheat. If you leave the heat sync pad off, it makes no difference and is not used with the same motor in any other bike.

This was a thermal image taken by @Zimmerframe after a hard ride and shows a top temp of 40.1°C. Not saying they don't get hotter than this but unless you're climbing a monster mountain in Death Valley, you probably shouldn't worry too much.

For accuracy on power and assistance, the specifications below on power and assistance are from Brose:
1.2e Drive C (E22243)
1.2 Drive T (C16162 - Later C91143)
1.3 Drive S (C97272)
1.3 Drive TF (C79232)
When comparing maximum torque, consider assistance and when/how that torque is used? We test ride almost every motor that we repair or overhaul and most drive T motors (70Nm) feel faster or more powerful than the Drive S (90Nm). The Drive S seems to have more initial torque but then drops down where as the 70Nm motors keep delivering.
We have not tested this scientifically yet, just all different motors in exactly the same bike over several years gives you a pretty good feeling.
Anyway, hope this helps.

 

[Zimmerframe]

We have not tested this scientifically yet, just all different motors in exactly the same bike over several years gives you a pretty good feeling.
Anyway, hope this helps.

For straight power comparisons, you could run Mission control in "battery" and see what the bikes are pulling. The 1.3 normally pulls 20A. How this actually converts to useable torque though .. who knows.

Incidentally. After 2 years of pain, mine has magically fixed itself !! Following recent minimal uses and a few comparison rides with the Bosch. Suddenly it felt more pokey in eco and trail (Turbo's always felt ok). A longer test ride showed more range potential too. So took it out on one of my old range test loops where it would invariably arrive back flat .. Got back with 25% left, despite a longer route than normal and 4 PR's on climbs ! I like it a lot more with power and range !

 

[chamaruco]

this explains why the brose T on the rockrider e-st900 seems so capable. perfect for my wife, too much for me. indeed after a few months riding that bike i've prefered a turbo levo sl.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Hi all,
Not sure if any of you guys use Blevo but it supplies you with all the info (and much, much more) that you have been talking about In the above posts. Motor temp, Battery temp, Motor Power measured in Watts, and loads of other geeky measurements for the entire ride which you can view after your ride on your phone. If you want even more detail like Current draw measured in Amps, you can download the CSV output file that has an output measurement for every second of the ride that you can easily download and ‘geek’ over. I don’t know how accurate the info from Blevo is but I guess it will be within + or - 10% or better?

From the data I have the gathered from the 1.2 engine in my newly acquired secondhand 2019 Levo HT on ‘Turbo‘ mode I consistently get outputs of between 580 to 601 Watts of peak power with a Current draw of 15.2 to 15.4 Amps. Motor temp will go over 50 degrees centigrade if consistently climbing on ‘Turbo’ but so far I have never seen it go over 55 degrees. Also, I have noticed it is very economical even on ‘Turbo’ with a 400 Wh battery and if you flip it to ‘Trail’ mode or ‘ Eco‘ it is of course even better. The thing that I ‘really’ noticed is how quiet the motor is compared to any of the 2.1 and 2.2 engines.

My Comp Carbon 2019 Levo FS with the allegedly ‘improved’ replacement 2.2 engine on ‘Turbo’ mode consistently outputs between 710 to 723 Watts of peak power with a Current draw of 19.0 to 19.2 Amps. Now the next bit is interesting as it could be due to the carbon frame not being the best at heat dissipation. Heat definitely increases on these engines. On ‘Trail’ mode if you are continuously climbing it will creep up to nearly 60 degrees. On ‘Turbo‘ mode I have seen it exceed 70 degrees which is why I have asked @PaoloBLEvo if he could add motor temperature to the voice alerts on Blevo so I can back off if it starts to hit a scary motor temp as I carry my phone in my body armour so I can’t see the display.

The question I have for @Specialized Rider Care is what is an acceptable motor temp and what temp range should we be trying to keep within? Is this possibly a reason why some motors have been failing and are still failing? I do not know what damage a consistent 70+ degrees will do to an engine or belt so your feedback or anyone else that knows about heat limitations on electric engines in ebikes would be much appreciated.

Maybe the heat output is not so high on the engines in the aluminium frames with the 2.1 or 2.2 engines in them but I do not have one to give you the feedback on. It would be good if someone who has Blevo and an Ali framed 2019, 2020 or 2021 could do some testing and feedback their numbers to compare?

I have a 1.3 engine which I purchased from Berks cycles a couple of years ago as a spare which I am going to drop into the HT to see what the temps are like continuously climbing on Turbo mode. I can only presume it is going to rinse the 400 Watt battery in just over half an hour as I know I measured the 1.3 engines output when I first got it and it was putting out figures of 740 to 750 Watts and a Current draw of 20 to 20.1 Amps.

Anyway, hope the above info helps and I will feedback what I capture on the 1.3

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi all,
Not sure if any of you guys use Blevo but it supplies you with all the info (and much, much more) that you have been talking about In the above posts. Motor temp, Battery temp, Motor Power measured in Watts, and loads of other geeky measurements for the entire ride which you can view after your ride on your phone. If you want even more detail like Current draw measured in Amps, you can download the CSV output file that has an output measurement for every second of the ride that you can easily download and ‘geek’ over. I don’t know how accurate the info from Blevo is but I guess it will be within + or - 10% or better?

From the data I have the gathered from the 1.2 engine in my newly acquired secondhand 2019 Levo HT on ‘Turbo‘ mode I consistently get outputs of between 580 to 601 Watts of peak power with a Current draw of 15.2 to 15.4 Amps. Motor temp will go over 50 degrees centigrade if consistently climbing on ‘Turbo’ but so far I have never seen it go over 55 degrees. Also, I have noticed it is very economical even on ‘Turbo’ with a 400 Wh battery and if you flip it to ‘Trail’ mode or ‘ Eco‘ it is of course even better. The thing that I ‘really’ noticed is how quiet the motor is compared to any of the 2.1 and 2.2 engines.

My Comp Carbon 2019 Levo FS with the allegedly ‘improved’ replacement 2.2 engine on ‘Turbo’ mode consistently outputs between 710 to 723 Watts of peak power with a Current draw of 19.0 to 19.2 Amps. Now the next bit is interesting as it could be due to the carbon frame not being the best at heat dissipation. Heat definitely increases on these engines. On ‘Trail’ mode if you are continuously climbing it will creep up to nearly 60 degrees. On ‘Turbo‘ mode I have seen it exceed 70 degrees which is why I have asked @PaoloBLEvo if he could add motor temperature to the voice alerts on Blevo so I can back off if it starts to hit a scary motor temp as I carry my phone in my body armour so I can’t see the display.

The question I have for @Specialized Rider Care is what is an acceptable motor temp and what temp range should we be trying to keep within? Is this possibly a reason why some motors have been failing and are still failing? I do not know what damage a consistent 70+ degrees will do to an engine or belt so your feedback or anyone else that knows about heat limitations on an electric engines in ebikes would be much appreciated.

Maybe the heat output is not so high on the engines in the aluminium frames with the 2.1 or 2.2 engines in them but I do not have one to give you the feedback on. It would be good if someone who has Blevo and an Ali framed 2019, 2020 or 2021 could do some testing and feedback their numbers to compare?

I have a 1.3 engine which I purchased from Berks cycles a couple of years ago as a spare which I am going to drop into the HT to see what the temps are like continuously climbing on Turbo mode. I can only presume it is going to rinse the 400 Watt battery in just over half an hour as I know I measured the 1.3 engine output when I first got it and it was putting out figures of 740 to 750 Watts and a Current draw of 20 to 20.1 Amps.

Anyway, hope the above info helps and I will feedback what I capture on the 1.3

Great work Kiwi. Interesting your statement regards noise too. We have noticed that the new Brose drive belt is too wide for the pulley guides and puts a lot of stress on the edge guides of the large drive pulley and belt tensioners pulley guide. These guides seem to be wearing and future longevity will be interesting, although it seems to just wear the edge of the belt away. This I think is where most of the noise is coming from in the later motors.

I will be interested to hear what Spesh rider care comes back with about temperature, but 70 degrees for modern electronics is not even warm really and we have definitely never seen any signs of heat damage. Just for reference, the internal electronics are generally very robust and normally one of the last things to fail on these motors.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Great to hear from you. Thanks for the feedback, glad to know the electronics are robust and you have not seen any signs of heat damage, that sort of puts my mind at ease. Do you by chance know what temp the belt can sustain?

How busy are you at the moment? I think I should get you to do the Brose upgrade and weather proofing on my 1.3 before I throw it in the hard tail