Bosch gen4 - tour mode too strong?

[rzr]

Does the coloured circle on the kiox show the same amount of power in both modes?

It's difficult to read it exactly while you climbing. I'll try to do test - short climb in both modes (and maybe record it) on a weekend.

 

[Gyre]

It's difficult to read it exactly while you climbing. I'll try to do test - short climb in both modes (and maybe record it) on a weekend.

You won't need to record it if you use the Power Contribution screen.

 

[rzr]

Because if you actually have "Tour" and not "Tour+" as you claimed, the output is strictly capped at 50Nm and 140% assist. With eMTB and Turbo, they go up to 85Nm and 340% assist.

and as we spoke, 140% * 280W = 392W - is way above motor limit, the same with the torque
85rpm * 50Nm / 9.554140127 = 445W (way above continuous motor power)
You can reach motor max. in all 3 modes.

 

[yorkshire89]

Why are you not listening to anything people have said?! The 250w is a regulation that ebikes have to provide over an amount of time, in all the time I've had my bike it's never limited me to this power.

Tour and Turbo are massively different in assistance. If your bike is giving you full power (~700w) in tour then you have a problem.

Ignore the 250w, it really means nothing.

 

[Zimmerframe]

and as we spoke, 140% * 280W = 392W - is way above motor limit, the same with the torque
85rpm * 50Nm / 9.554140127 = 445W (way above continuous motor power)
You can reach motor max. in all 3 modes.

This is getting to the point that you're literally trolling ???

You keep making completely in factual statements. You have other posts which point out that you're new to this and obviously have no knowledge, yet you keep arrogantly down playing everything which everyone else is telling you. Presumably you're just a normal person like the rest of us, and a lot of what we read is down to interpretation - but interpreting a lot of your posts you swing from helpful to .... I just have no idea.

Tour mode DOES NOT give the full motor power.

If you think yours does then :

A: your bike is faulty.
B: you are faulty.
C: it's Tour+ not tour.

Everyone here would like to help you, but you keep insisting that you're right and everyone else is wrong. You've been told the simple facts.

@Moderator can you check this guy and out and make sure he's not a spammer ?

Quite simply, the motor has different modes. After years of research these are generally pretty applicable for most people riding a mountain bike in most terrains and situations.

Why should they change Tour mode to be less when there is already a mode called "eco" which is less ? You find tour too much, select ECO - it's not difficult. Are you :

A: Bored?
B: A troll ?
C: Just argumentative ?
D: Trying to make everyone click "ignore"
E: Testing the forum to see when someone gets banned ?

Sorry, I just don't get it. You make a post - which suggests you want help/understanding. You get that and you reject it continually when everything you're saying is contrary to FACTS !

 

[rzr]

please read my first post, I just stated that Tour is too powerful (like or almost like eMTB), and Eco is nice, but for all day trips.
I spoke with Trek shop, they said it's like this, they cannot adjust it. So, you cannot help me, unless you can modify software.

someone gave some values, so I made calculations for him, that's it.
But as I said, I'll try to do some meaningful tests

 

[Zimmerframe]

please read my first post, I just stated that Tour is too powerful (like or almost like eMTB)

Please read everyone elses posts and the specifications of the motor. Tour Is NOTHING LIKE EMTB !

 

[yorkshire89]

You stated (quite a few times) that Tour gives you the same assistance as Turbo. It doesn't (by a long way).
You can't change the assistance on this version of Kiox, it's something Bosch have added more recently.

It feels fine for me and many others. There's a nice step change between each assistance level.

If you need to be able to adjust each level, buy (another) Nyon, or buy a different bike.

 

[Planemo]

So, you cannot help me

I don't think anyone can to be honest mate.

B: you are faulty.

Nailed it.

 

[Gyre]

It seems like OP is just looking for confirmation of his original conclusions instead of sincerely seeking new information.

 

[rzr]

Quite simply, the motor has different modes. After years of research these are generally pretty applicable for most people riding a mountain bike in most terrains and situations.

This is surely a joke.
Bosch didn't see mountain biker from a mile....
Purion - inspired by 70's StarTrek, on bikes for 7-8k
only one eMTB mode (Tour is for touring/city bikes), no customisation at all
controls - again, fancy looking, not designed for MTB (compare with shimano, specialized or new Trek/TQ)
What other riders think about it: (24:44)

I did simple test

One time was in Tour (1:20), one in Turbo (1:23). (another time 1:21 was just a first climb, that's why it has more power)
I tried to keep constant 300W, however it's difficult on a gravel road.
From that, I'd say, motor power was the same.

Where is your data proving i'm wrong ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

only one eMTB mode (Tour is for touring/city bikes), no customisation at all

Are you really just endlessly argumentative or just a really unhappy dude ?

So you have an "eco" mode - not much assistance, great for big distances/climbs.
"tour" - more power than Eco - maybe for you it can be changed to "big eco" ? as the name tour means you're only allowed to use it on touring and city bikes ?
"Turbo" - full power, don't need to put any effort in to get the power, power drop for gear changes disabled.
"EMTB" - Really handy adaptive mode which out of the box balances pretty much full power when you need it but gives you great range and at the same time generally gives you the power you need when you need it without having to decide what you want and change modes.

Yup, they're not always adjustable - depending which controller you have.

Personally, as someone who likes to tinker and used to spend hours messing around with the Shimano settings and even longer on the Brose settings. Now I pretty much just set the Brose to default 99% of the time and go ride and don't worry about it.

Where is your data proving i'm wrong ?

Now this is where I think we have problems. You're on a public forum with the view that you are 100% correct, no matter what anyone else says, no matter what the specifications say, no matter what everyone elses experiences say.

We don't have to prove you're wrong. We don't care if you're wrong. You still don't get it that people are trying to help you. It's not some dick swinging contest where everyone is trying to be better than you.

You've made a statement which is incorrect. You're happy just complaining about it and being convinced that you're right. We're trying to explain to you that what you're saying isn't correct, therefore we're trying to understand what the problem is - to help you !

I've already explained that it's either :

A: your bike is faulty.
B: you are faulty.
C: it's Tour+ not tour.

Your example suggests that it's not tour+. Your Watt figures aren't high at all. It could be that your example is undulating terrain and you're on the limiter for most of it so not showing much power output ?

Examples from different motors (simano/brose/bosch) in trail/emtb/turbo

Tour :

All my examples are about trying to get the most power from the motor.

However, your example :

I tried to keep constant 300W, however it's difficult on a gravel road.

Literally suggests that you just tried to ride at the same power level in both modes ? So how is that proving what the maximum power is achievable in each mode ? All you've done is prove that if you want to, by riding accordingly, you could get the motor to provide 100, 200, 300w in each mode. You've provided an example to try and say that "you are right" .. yes, you are right, the motor can provide similar power in different modes depending how much pedal force you put in. But what has that to do with your claim that Tour and Turbo both provide the same maximum power. They don't. Tour+ and Turbo, yes. Tour and Turbo - NO - because the torque is limited in Tour, to extend out battery life.

Well. I hope you enjoy whatever it is that you do like about your bike. This thread is totally pointless.

 

[rzr]

300W is my constant power (and i can relate that to my other bike with power meter), not a motor (this is what Kiox display shows you and what is saved in GPX/TCX files). Motor gives maximum power at that time (in Tour or Turbo), thus, segment time is THE SAME in both situations.
Terrain was smooth inclined, I agree it's close to max 25-26km/h and some ppl could argue that data is incorrect. I could find longer steeper climb - this is difficult.

 

[yorkshire89]

Where is your data proving i'm wrong ?

Maximum torque in each mode, direct from the Bosch website:

Tour mode DOES NOT give the full motor power.

If you think yours does then :

A: your bike is faulty.
B: you are faulty.

This

 

[rzr]

I'm talking and power, not torque
however, i gave you already an equation with torque before....



but yeah, i undestand. I already explained everything many posts before, and you just try to argue for a sake of arguing? or just trolling?
ok, fine, my bike is faulty and/or I'm faulty. EOT.

 

[rzr]

Examples from different motors (simano/brose/bosch) in trail/emtb/turbo
View attachment 99210
View attachment 99213

Tour :

View attachment 99209
View attachment 99214

All my examples are about trying to get the most power from the motor.

I don't see lightning symbol here (data from power meter), which means these power values are roughly estimated by Strava (from distance,inclination), but it's not very accurate (no info about terrain, tires, bike/your weight etc.)
Basically, on your images, this is total power estimated by Strava,
on my picture (with lightnings) it's only MY power recorded by power meter (from bosch system).

From your examples, I feel lik You don't know too much what you are talking about...

 

[yorkshire89]

I'm talking and power, not torque
however, i gave you already an equation with torque before....

It doesn't matter if you are talking about power or torque, they are both related.
Max Turbo assistance at 80rpm - 710w
Max Tour assistance at 80rpm - 420w

and you just try to argue for a sake of arguing? or just trolling?

Big claim coming from you tbh....

 

[rzr]

It doesn't matter if you are talking about power or torque, they are both related.
Max Turbo assistance at 80rpm - 710w
Max Tour assistance at 80rpm - 420w

correct, these are maximum / 'up to' values and if Turbo can give you 720? we don't know, it's 'up to X', and even if it does, probably it's for a second or a few, when you accelerate.

 

[Zimmerframe]

we don't know, it's 'up to X', and even if it does, probably it's for a second or few, when you accelerate.

Why do you keep writing everything as if this all came out yesterday and no one but you has any knowledge or experience ?

Have you actually ridden your bike ? The more you write, the more it seems like you've never actually ridden it ?

As we said earlier, the way the motor power limits conform for the testing is quite complicated. But effectively, unless it's an SL type motor, the units can draw 700w or more pretty much continually.

I don't have a Bosch example, but the Bosch in Turbo is pretty similar to the Brose. This is on a steep climb, I had to ease off to take the screen grab so it's not full power.

So effectively, in the right circumstances, you could flatten a 500wh battery in less than 5km's or a 625 in 6km's. Hence why it's nice to have different modes

I know this doesn't help you prove your theory, it's just an example about that part.

If we do take a step back and maybe consider that you don't know what you're talking about, can I check something ?

You do know on a purion/nyon and so on it generally will only show "TOUR" even if you have "TOUR+" activated in the firmware don't you ?

It would be pretty obvious when riding the bike if you have Tour or Tour +. The support in Tour when setting off and through the range will be pretty constant. The support in Tour+ will be less when you set off and the assistance level will increase the more effort you put in - like EMTB mode, but less - but unlike Eco and Turbo which feel more constant.

 

[rzr]

Why do you keep writing everything as if this all came out yesterday and no one but you has any knowledge or experience ?

Have you actually ridden your bike ? The more you write, the more it seems like you've never actually ridden it ?

I feel like i have to explain you how to read these (quite often marketing) pictures you are posting.....

Yes, I ride my bike, even I did a test yesterday and provided you some data , and even explained You how to read it and I was happy to discuss and explain data provided by You (which was completely different)


I had Nyon for a moment, there was an option (paid!!) to customize your modes 1-4 (instead of predefined eco/tour/emtb/turbo).
Now I have Kiox (with 2 buttons). mode is called 'tour' (I don't know if there is a hidden + ,how could i?)
Power delivery in my tour is like 'less sensitive' eMTB, if you try hard enough (which i stated from the beginning, above 280W) I feel it delivers the same power like in eMTB and Turbo

So effectively, in the right circumstances, you could flatten a 500wh battery in less than 5km's or a 625 in 6km's. Hence why it's nice to have different modes

It would be nice if you can customise them (like with all other systems?), or at least have a mode between weak Eco and full power Tour/eMTB/Turbo - which this topic is about

 

[Planemo]

and even if it does, probably it's for a second or a few, when you accelerate.

FFS, talk about obfuscation. No it's not for a second (or a few).

Heres another scenario which might help (though I doubt it).

Take a dongled bike, with speed restriction turned off (or at whatever it's max setting is, prob around 28mph). Lets assume that the dongle doesn't alter motor power output, which most don't.

1. Ride said bike with as much rider effort as you can possibly manage for a set distance (say 200m) and time using a stopwatch.
2. Do the same in Tour mode.
3. Compare the two times.

I can guarantee you that the time will be less in Turbo. And it will provide the same assistance from start to finish, not one or a few seconds (as will Tour btw).

If you're putting the same amount of rider effort in and (according to you) power output from the motor is the same in both modes, how can this be?

Answers on a postcard please, along with your math formula because you will prob be in line for a Nobel and correcting Einsteins mistakes.

 

[rzr]

If you're putting the same amount of rider effort in and (according to you) power output from the motor is the same in both modes, how can this be?

Answers on a postcard please, along with your math formula because you will prob be in line for a Nobel and correcting Einsteins mistakes.

I gave you exactly that example above:
constant power from me + power from motor (in tour and turbo mode) = the same time on a climb segment.
why don't you read it ? Do you think I did some mistakes during my test? maybe I could change/improve something ?

I cannot do Your tests, as I don't have 5 different bikes to test, unrestricted/dongled whateva....

 

[Planemo]

I gave you exactly that example above:
constant power from me + power from motor (in tour and turbo mode) = the same time on a climb segment.
why don't you read it ? Do you think I did some mistakes during my test? maybe I could change/improve something ?

I cannot do Your tests, as I don't have 5 different bikes to test, unrestricted/dongled whateva....

Great, then as we've said, you either have Tour+ (Magictour) or you have Tour and your bike is goosed.

Glad we've resolved it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I feel like i have to explain you how to read these (quite often marketing) pictures you are posting.....

Are you sure you're not trolling ? You can't possibly really be as arrogant as this thread displays you as ?

Ride bike, jump to conclusion, tell the world. Disagree with anyone who doesn't agree with your theory.

Dismiss all suggestions and evidence which people submit to try and understand your "problem" and the information (sorry, marketing) they submit to help you understand (which you have to explain to us is incorrect as it doesn't fit with your theory).

Power delivery in my tour is like 'less sensitive' eMTB, if you try hard enough (which i stated from the beginning, above 280W) I feel it delivers the same power like in eMTB and Turbo

So to conclude .. You have TOUR+.

Obviously the world revolves around what you think and decide, but maybe, as an alternative approach you could try :

Experience something, don't understand it, read up about it/do some research - don't disregard everything which contradicts whatever conclusion you may have jumped to !

For example, use the forum Search function .... search for say ... Tour+ ..

One of several results ..

New Bosch Tour + Mode

In summary, this appears to be an additional mode which sits between Tour and EMTB. It automatically adjusts assistance from Eco all the way to Turbo. You potentially get more range compared to Tour or EMTB because with Tour + It shifts down to eco on the flat...

www.emtbforums.com

So if you hate Tour+ and can't use Eco, even though Tour+ generally gives better range for most people (not everyone) than just tour , you can take your bike to the shop and ask them to swap Tour+ out for Tour or even Trek's EMTBLITE - which will give you less assistance than tour+.

It would be nice if you can customise them (like with all other systems?), or at least have a mode between weak Eco and full power Tour/eMTB/Turbo - which this topic is about

Yes it would, some of the displays do let you customise. If this was going to be a priority for you, you should have bought the version of the bike with the "Smart" version of the motor where you can customise all the settings.

I had Nyon for a moment, there was an option (paid!!) to customize your modes 1-4 (instead of predefined eco/tour/emtb/turbo).

Oh look ... you did ... but YOU decided to change it..

I'm still confused what your problem is ...

if you try hard enough (which i stated from the beginning, above 280W) I feel it delivers the same power like in eMTB and Turbo

So with Tour+ IF YOU try hard enough (more than EMTB and TURBO) you can still get the same level of assistance.

It's not forcing that level of assistance down your throat. If you want more of a workout and don't want the level of assistance you're getting in TOUR+, use Eco or turn the motor off ? or is "Eco" just for Ecologists so you can't use it ?

You had a customisable system and didn't like it (you changed it). Your complaint is that the none customisable controller you changed it for is not customisable ? Presumably you knew this before hand because your arrogance knowledge of everything would mean you would know. There certainly wouldn't be any need to look at any information marketing rubbish. When it's far easier to go on a forum afterwards and tell everyone that it's wrong.

Have we cleared that up ? Enjoy the bike. It can be fun too you know ?

 

[yorkshire89]

I don't think he has Tour+, if he's got a Kiox it would say on the display wouldn't it? (Happy to be corrected)

He just can't feel any difference between modes, which is weird because they feel massively different to everyone else.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I don't think he has Tour+, if he's got a Kiox it would say on the display wouldn't it? (Happy to be corrected)

He just can't feel any difference between modes, which is weird because they feel massively different to everyone else.

I think on most Purions and most Kiox's it just says "Tour" even if you have Tour+ installed on the motor.

What he's saying, or I think he's saying, though I'm not sure he knows what he's saying even though he seems to think he knows what he's saying because he's adamant that he's saying what he's saying - even though we're not sure exactly what that is.

But assuming his motor/battery are working correctly, then :

(I know that's just marketing rubbish and means nothing). But it does help validate (without him providing accurate/factual information - like did he have tour+ installed on the motor before he swapped the display ?) that he most likely has Tour+ and is just here to point out that he's right (tour+ CAN give the same assistance as EMTB and TURBO) and he's wrong (he doesn't have Tour mode as he says he does, which he might have concluded earlier if we'd only provided some factual information for him to work with rather than cartoons, wild unproven theories and marketing rubbish).

Unfortunately, even with that conclusion, he's pointed out that we're all wrong (including Bosch) and he's right, so it can't be a valid conclusion - so were back to square one.

 

[yorkshire89]

Thanks, that thread you linked earlier mentioned it still just says Tour on screen.
I mentioned a while back to check the big coloured circle that goes around the bike's speed on the display. With my Tour the coloured part (motor power) will stop about 1/3rd (8 o'clock) of the way and the lighter coloured portion is 'my power' on top of that. If you have Tour+ this will continue past similar to EMTB and Turbo.

 

[rzr]

He just can't feel any difference between modes, which is weird because they feel massively different to everyone else.

I never said that. Please read my posts more carefully. I said tour/emtb/turbo give the same (max?) power if you pedal hard.

 

[rzr]

So to conclude .. You have TOUR+.
Have we cleared that up ? Enjoy the bike. It can be fun too you know ?

Looks like
I have a strange feeling, that with all your experience and knowledge, You could tell this probably from my first post,
instead you chose to troll me for almost a week ....

For example, use the forum Search function .... search for say ... Tour+ ..

It looks like another amazing solution from Bosch, creating different modes, but forgetting to change their names... ?

One of several results ..

New Bosch Tour + Mode

In summary, this appears to be an additional mode which sits between Tour and EMTB. It automatically adjusts assistance from Eco all the way to Turbo. You potentially get more range compared to Tour or EMTB because with Tour + It shifts down to eco on the flat...

www.emtbforums.com

So if you hate Tour+ and can't use Eco, even though Tour+ generally gives better range for most people (not everyone) than just tour , you can take your bike to the shop and ask them to swap Tour+ out for Tour or even Trek's EMTBLITE - which will give you less assistance than tour+.

that emtb lite sounds good indeed.
however my trek centre told me they cannot change it, maybe I should try to insist harder.

Yes it would, some of the displays do let you customise. If this was going to be a priority for you, you should have bought the version of the bike with the "Smart" version of the motor where you can customise all the settings.

Oh look ... you did ... but YOU decided to change it..

If I know that before... (how silly I'm, I thought that customising modes is something obvious...)
Definietely my next bike won't have Bosch (motor is great, but the rest....)

I'm still confused what your problem is ...

So with Tour+ IF YOU try hard enough (more than EMTB and TURBO) you can still get the same level of assistance.

It's not forcing that level of assistance down your throat. If you want more of a workout and don't want the level of assistance you're getting in TOUR+, use Eco or turn the motor off ? or is "Eco" just for Ecologists so you can't use it ?

You had a customisable system and didn't like it (you changed it). Your complaint is that the none customisable controller you changed it for is not customisable ?

BTW, do you know how Nyon looks like?
If Purion is a sad joke for mountain biking, Nyon is a pinnacle of mountain biking misunderstanding.

As I said in my first post. I'm looking for something above Eco (which allows me to ride full day and do >3000m?), but less than Tour(+?) which gives me full power on climbs (when I push above 260-280W). that's it.
Ok, i understand that maybe 'emtb lite' mode could be the solution.
Thank You all for help.

eMTB Lite - A Software update not to be missed

Is a software update that comes with all 2021 Trek E mountain bikes equipped with a Gen 4 Bosch motor. It replaces the standard Tour mode with a dynamic variable-assist mode simular to EMTB. But at a lower torque range.In the same way that any 2020 Trek powered CX Gen 4 motor could be updated...

bikegarage.co.uk

We have updated our Ebike hire fleet to have it and think it offers something very useful. Especially to those who ride ebikes often and prefer to contribute more power and find eco mode too lower an assistance level. With EMTB taking too much power for longer rides.

Custom eMTB Lite mode

I spotted on the Trek site a Custom eMTB Lite mode to replace Tour mode, has anyone used this yet? Is it a firmware update?

www.emtbforums.com

 

[yorkshire89]

As I said in my first post. I'm looking for something above Eco (which allows me to ride full day and do >3000m?), but less than Tour(+?) which gives me full power on climbs (when I push above 260-280W). that's it.
Thank You all for help.

Only eco will let you get 3000m+ climbing. Even the old tour won't come anywhere close.
You said yourself you get 1600m from 50%, so just stick with eco and blame Bosch some more