Bosch gen4 - tour mode too strong?

[rzr]

Today I decided to check range of my Trek Rail gen4 625Wh in Eco mode,
however after doing ~1600m elevation i had 50% battery and decided to speed up, to finish the battery before sunset
so I switched to Tour mode (I don't have any +),
and I noticed that battery was eaten quite fast, I started doing some 'tests' and switching modes Tour - eMTB while climbing and I didn't feel difference (or almost no difference). It felt like the same amount of support, when I was producing more than 260-280W. (climbs were steep, with speeds ~15km/h, my cadence on climbs is around 80-85rpm, 73kg weight)
Do you feel the same?
Is it possible to set Tour to less assistance? (of course still more than Eco).

 

[2WheelsNot4]

I've never used eco mode. Health is a bit screwed these days(COPD) so that kind of effort is a bit beyond me.

I've found the opposite though on TOUR, in that I feel the power assistance should(or could) be increased from 160% up to 200% or even 250%.
I mostly use turbo, which is 340%(or is it 360%, i forget) but tour I find just hasnt the oomph im preferring as with turbo.

For me and my useage on turbo i get about 38-41miles, on tour its showing i get about 57miles, so theres not a huge difference. Upping the assistance to 250% should give me somewhere about 47- say 50miles. Enough oomph, but not stressing anything.

 

[rzr]

If you want more power, you can always use eMTB. Also, other companies give you possibility to easily adjust power assistance.... just now bosch ....

so the motor is max 250W (maybe short peak power higher) ? so if I produce 280W and Tour can give up to 140% (280*140%=392W), which is way above max power.... so basically the feeling is the same as on emtb or turbo... (on smooth surface with smooth power delivery)

 

[Sander23]

A friend of mine has a bike with a bosch gen 2 with nyon display and is been able to adjust it's power in stages % and at certain speeds

 

[mak]

^^^ This, the only way to lower output on the old system is from a nyon. I agree though, tour on the Bosch gen 4 is very strong and copes with most climbs, i never understood the tour plus mode so left it off my bike, isn't it like having two emtb modes?

 

[Peaky Rider]

I have my Rail set to Tour + rather than just Tour (dealer needed).
Have a read of this, especially post 3

Emtb Lite v Tour +

Anyone tried both of these, how do they compare? I’m currently running Trek’s Emtb Lite.

www.emtbforums.com

 

[slomtbr]

As you're on a Rail, when Tour is displayed, you probably have EMTB Lite.
Tour+ would conserve battery life as it starts at a lower level of assist and ramps up slower.

 

[yorkshire89]

I noticed that battery was eaten quite fast, I started doing some 'tests' and switching modes Tour - eMTB while climbing and I didn't feel difference (or almost no difference)

With EMTB if you put more power through the pedals the assistance will increase, less power and it will give you similar power to tour mode.

 

[Stihldog]

With EMTB if you put more power through the pedals the assistance will increase, less power and it will give you similar power to tour mode.

That’s exactly what I find. Except Tour mode seems to be sensitive, especially when starting off. I rarely use Tour anyways or Turbo. Maybe Tour+ might be the answer?

 

[rzr]

With EMTB if you put more power through the pedals the assistance will increase, less power and it will give you similar power to tour mode.

but i put just MY power, and both modes - tour and emtb give me the same power, like turbo (or very close, can't feel the difference).

I saw settings in Nyon - i had it on my bike, even bought for 4.5 eur! custom modes... (now i'll return it), as i just mounted Kiox display, and it looks like customisation doesn't exist....

It'd be enought to add one adjustment/slider with 'intensity multiplier' to one mode....

WTF.... is it bosch gen4 ? with all these bulky/cumbersome controls and gimmicks, but without important stuff, it feels like first generation

 

[yorkshire89]

I feel a big change between modes on mine. EMTB has a smoother power curve depending how much power you put down.
Tour and Turbo feel like they both give you a set assistance but Turbo feels twice as powerful as Tour.

If you have your kiox on the speed display page with the coloured circle around it, you can see how much power the motor and you put down in the various modes.

 

[rzr]

I feel a big change between modes on mine. EMTB has a smoother power curve depending how much power you put down.
Tour and Turbo feel like they both give you a set assistance but Turbo feels twice as powerful as Tour.

I'm talking about climbing, when I alredy pedal, power is the same on both 3 modes.

 

[Gyre]

If you want more power, you can always use eMTB. Also, other companies give you possibility to easily adjust power assistance.... just now bosch ....

so the motor is max 250W (maybe short peak power higher) ? so if I produce 280W and Tour can give up to 140% (280*140%=392W), which is way above max power.... so basically the feeling is the same as on emtb or turbo... (on smooth surface with smooth power delivery)

Both Tour and Tour+ provide noticeably less power than eMTB, even when you restrict eMTB mode to max out at 75Nm. If your Rail has a Kiox, set up the "Power Contribution" screen and go for two rides: one in Tour mode (take a photo of the screen and reset your ride) then another in eMTB mode. You'll get a rough idea about how much power the bike is actually putting out and see the difference between Tour/eMTB. If it comes out to about the same, then something is off with your bike.

 

[Planemo]

It's quite easy to feel no difference between Tour and eMTB if you're not putting a lot of effort in. Switch between the two at say 10~12mph on a flat road and you won't feel any difference. eMTB does however massively rear it's head compared to Tour when some more rider effort goes in.

Personally I find the various settings perfect and wouldn't want to change any of them. Tour is ideal for constant speed road riding, eMTB for everything else. I rarely use Eco but its great for when speeds are low such as riding with my kids/Mrs. Like Eco, Turbo is used rarely, usually only if I'm road riding but need to be somewhere on the hurry up (which is rare).

I note that you say you couldn't tell a difference between Tour and eMTB when climbing though which is strange. There may well be a problem with your system as has been mentioned.

 

[rzr]

Both Tour and Tour+ provide noticeably less power than eMTB

all 3: tour, emtb, turbo - can give you maximum power. i didn't see any information about restrictions for these modes.

yes, when I go slower, i can feel the difference, but most of the time I don't go slow.

 

[rzr]

I note that you say you couldn't tell a difference between Tour and eMTB when climbing though which is strange. There may well be a problem with your system as has been mentioned.

please read my first post, there is no difference when motor cannot produce more power than maximum... right?

 

[Zimmerframe]

@rzr These guys are trying to help you.

Maybe read their posts and take into account what they're saying ?

You say you're using Tour and not Tour+

SO !

Just as a rough guide :

Unless I'm completely miss translating what you're saying, then at the moment you're saying all the modes feel the same - they don't ! AT ALL !

Tour gives nothing like the power of EMTB, if you hit a hill and go for it in Tour it's like someone's pulling you backwards compared to EMTB.

On a positive, your 1600 in Eco with 50% left is good going. So suggests that you are putting the power in - which in turn fits with the responses given by everyone else.

Yes, The Bosch can do really amazing things if you slay yourself to the bone at the same time.

 

[rzr]

@rzr These guys are trying to help you.


Unless I'm completely miss translating what you're saying, then at the moment you're saying all the modes feel the same - they don't ! AT ALL !

yep. probably you missed I didn't say they feel exactly the same, I said all 3 give maximum power. (or in other words, when i climb - all give max. power).
Tour gives up to 140% of your power? so 280W * 1.4 = 392W (but motor max sustained power is 250W)
eMTB up to 340% ? 280W*3.4=952W, but max motor power is 250W .... (the same as above)

yes, it feels THE SAME underpower during climb.
Unfortunatelly my Trek shop told me there is nothing they can do (they cannot adjust power levels)

 

[Zimmerframe]

yep. probably you missed I didn't say they feel exactly the same, I said all 3 give maximum power. (or in other words, when i climb - all give max. power).
Tour gives up to 140% of your power? so 280W * 1.4 = 392W (but motor max sustained power is 250W)
eMTB up to 340% ? 280W*3.4=952W, but max motor power is 250W .... (the same as above)

yes, it feels THE SAME underpower during climb.
Unfortunatelly my Trek shop told me there is nothing they can do (they cannot adjust power levels)

The motors are rated at a maximum sustained 250w. How this is calculated is more complicated and is discussed in various places.

In reality, Turbo and Emtb will give you about 700w peak. And tour about half that as a peak. Hence, if your bike by is working properly, they should feel worlds apart. Maybe your battery has a fault and isn't giving full amps.

 

[rzr]

don't think so, everything is fine, I was able to keep up with 2 Unno Mith bikes (they have Bosch motors as well and were on emtb/turbo mode).

I've already explained what's the problem. Lack of custom settings (for at least one mode), and that all 3 modes can give you maximum power....

but thank You for input and help

 

[JP-NZ]

don't think so, everything is fine, I was able to keep up with 2 Unno Mith bikes (they have Bosch motors as well and were on emtb/turbo mode).

I've already explained what's the problem. Lack of custom settings (for at least one mode), and that all 3 modes can give you maximum power....

I'm in a similar boat here, I have Gen 4 CX MY22. I climb in Eco or Tour+, I only use Emtb on climbs if its near vertical steepness. With the flow app I have Eco set to +3 power and torque at 85nm. Tour+ is great for climbing but it would be nice to drop support a few levels as it does provide tonnes of power when cadence is high. The difference between Eco and Tour+ is huge yet the difference between Tour+ and EMTB is minor IMHO.

I can custom mode the turbo and Eco modes but can't touch the Tour+ or EMTB. I believe thats because they are custom tuned by Bosch/Trek/Whoever... and they don't want them changed.

 

[yorkshire89]

don't think so, everything is fine, I was able to keep up with 2 Unno Mith bikes (they have Bosch motors as well and were on emtb/turbo mode).

I've already explained what's the problem. Lack of custom settings (for at least one mode), and that all 3 modes can give you maximum power....

but thank You for input and help

If tour is giving you full power you have a problem and need to go back to a Bosch dealer.

Does the coloured circle on the kiox show the same amount of power in both modes?

 

[rzr]

If tour is giving you full power you have a problem and need to go back to a Bosch dealer.

Does the coloured circle on the kiox show the same amount of power in both modes?

Why do you think so? why do you think Tour cannot give you full power ?

 

[JP-NZ]

As per the graph above that Zimmerframe posted, Tour+/Magictour does give you full power if the rider pushes it hard enough.

For me as per the graph why does Tour+/Magictour need to reach the same peak as EMTB and Turbo, if it peaked at say the old "sport" level and had a less gradual climb I would be happier.

 

[Gyre]

Why do you think so? why do you think Tour cannot give you full power ?

Because if you actually have "Tour" and not "Tour+" as you claimed, the output is strictly capped at 50Nm and 140% assist. With eMTB and Turbo, they go up to 85Nm and 340% assist.

The information is a little harder to find on the Bosch web site than it used to be, but the numbers are still circulating out there, which happens to be consistent with the chart that Zimmerframe kindly provided.

Bosch motors | Technology | Riese & Müller

Many Riese & Müller e-bikes are equipped with low-maintenance Bosch motors – boasting balanced to powerful pedal assistance.

www.r-m.de

It is also on page 46 of the Bosch 2020 Dealer Manual pinned to the top of this forum.

Once again, do the power contribution test I described in my prior post and see the difference for yourself. If the motor is functioning normally, you will see a clear difference in the ratio.

 

[Planemo]

all 3 modes can give you maximum power....

With all respect, you keep saying this but they don't. Even if you have the legs of Chris Froome you won't get 85nm of assist out of Tour mode. If you do, then yes you have a problem.

The graph that Zimmer posted tells it exactly how I feel it on my bike eg on Tour the peak assist is way below what Turbo and eMTB can offer.

I appreciate that the graph doesn't show any flatlining of the Tour, Eco or Sport modes (like eMTB, Sport and Turbo do) but that doesn't mean they just keep climbing, it's just because the graph isn't as clear as it could be.

 

[JP-NZ]

With all respect, you keep saying this but they don't. Even if you have the legs of Chris Froome you won't get 85nm of assist out of Tour mode. If you do, then yes you have a problem.

The graph that Zimmer posted tells it exactly how I feel it on my bike eg on Tour the peak assist is way below what Turbo and eMTB can offer.

Perhaps rzr meant Tour+ which does give full power.

 

[Planemo]

please read my first post, there is no difference when motor cannot produce more power than maximum... right?

If the maximum in your head is 250w then yes, it can. And does.

 

[Planemo]

Perhaps rzr meant Tour+ which does give full power.

He said he doesn't have Tour+ in his first post.

 

[JP-NZ]

He said he doesn't have Tour+ in his first post.

Ok sorry. Disregard.