Bosch 500Wh range

[shamrock]

I'm really confused with my two bikes. Both have the Bosch Performance line CX, both have the 500Wh battery. The other one is the Canyon Precede:ON CF 8 which I mostly use in the summer, but have used it also in wintert conditions. It has the Bosch eBike system 2. The other one is a Crescent Elgar 30B with Bosch Smart System. Being an aluminium frame, full suspension and 29.5" tires I understand that it is bit heavier. But the actual range differenece between these two bikes is something that cannot be understood. With the Canyon in eMtb mode, in winter conditions, I have no problem getting to work and back, around 45km. Sometimes even two days in a row, so it actually gives more than 100km of range with my driving style. Tires in winter on both bikes are the same, Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pro.

The Crescent however is a completely different story. There's no chance to make it last even 50km. On my last drive, I really tried to push. It was 22,4 km, my average speed was 24.1 km/h and the average power provided by me was 130W. It drained 49% of the battery. On one good slightly downhill straight, I kept my speed over 26km/h for over 5 kilometres, and even on that part I lost 5% of the battery. The ride took 55 minutes, I have a 500Wh battery and a 250W motor, limited to 25 km/h, so technically this just should not happen. It would mean that the motor is running full power all the time, and it certainly isn't.

So ... same parts, but with the other bike the range is pretty much half of what I get with the other one. Do I have a faulty battery? Do I have a faulty software? Should I try to ride it as empty as possible, to "learn" the battery? I can't do it now when I commute to work, I have the keep the charger with me and charge it at work, so I haven't have time to test it beyond.

 

[irie]

On one good slightly downhill straight, I kept my speed over 26km/h for over 5 kilometres, and even on that part I lost 5% of the battery.

That certainly sounds wrong, but the software might be lying to you ...

 

[whitymon]

I am not sure I understand the comparison.

First bike is a city bike and you ride it from house to work, how would you try to compare it to a bike you would ride on trail? Did you do that with both bike? You mentioned DH so I guess not.

Riding in a city, assuming a usual one, everything is flat. On a trail up and down hill, so the motor absolutely do not consume the same.

This is why you will always find range with elevation.

It is not because you maintained a speed at nearly 25 that your motor did not do anything. If you pedaled, you just do not know if you had to pedal to maintain 25, if so the motor was assisting. You want to know? Do twice the DH with assistance first, second none, there you will know. Also if the battery drain by 5% with assistance to zero/disabled, you have a battery issue too.

If you ride both bike on house/work, they have the same weight, you pedal the same and there is 50% difference in remaining battery, yes you have an issue.

Anyway, we lack inputs to help you correctly, hope this above could give you some clarity.

 

[Renton_Yorkshire]

On the Crescent, is the powertube removable? Does it have SoC lights on one end which indicate whats in it when you connect to charge it?

Maybe run it until its flat and dies, and see what distance you can get out of it - to see if the software is an issue.

 

[shamrock]

I am not sure I understand the comparison.

First bike is a city bike and you ride it from house to work, how would you try to compare it to a bike you would ride on trail? Did you do that with both bike? You mentioned DH so I guess not.

Riding in a city, assuming a usual one, everything is flat. On a trail up and down hill, so the motor absolutely do not consume the same.

This is why you will always find range with elevation.

It is not because you maintained a speed at nearly 25 that your motor did not do anything. If you pedaled, you just do not know if you had to pedal to maintain 25, if so the motor was assisting. You want to know? Do twice the DH with assistance first, second none, there you will know. Also if the battery drain by 5% with assistance to zero/disabled, you have a battery issue too.

If you ride both bike on house/work, they have the same weight, you pedal the same and there is 50% difference in remaining battery, yes you have an issue.

Anyway, we lack inputs to help you correctly, hope this above could give you some clarity.

Exactly the same route. It's unpaved country and forest roads, and in the summer the city bike is quite ok there. I also used last winter on the same route. But since I got a good end-of-season offer, I thought I'd buy another one for the winter. Those roads are not always maintained, so the trail bike is better there in the winter.

So, I am comparing exactly the same route, which I've now driven 8000km with the Canyon.

The Canyon weighs 21,1kg and the Crescent 25,7kg so I understand that makes SOME difference, but with an 80kg driver should not make that much.

 

[shamrock]

On the Crescent, is the powertube removable? Does it have SoC lights on one end which indicate whats in it when you connect to charge it?

Maybe run it until its flat and dies, and see what distance you can get out of it - to see if the software is an issue.

Something like this I have also thought, but I really have to take time to test this. I mean, I wake up at 3:00, Leave to work at 4:00 and return home from work around 16:00. At some point I also have to charge to bike for the next day, but I was also thinking, that it is possible that somehow the bike hasn't "learned" the battery ... if I just keep going, will it keep dropping at the same rate?

The powertube is removable, it has those five leds in the other end and I think that the third one blinks when I plug it. So I believe that means there's around 40-60% at that point.

I'm also thinking, that could the temperature and frame material do that much? Carbon Fiber of course is a better insulator, but is it that much better? I charge the battery always indoors, so I start with a warm battery.

 

[shamrock]

I am not sure I understand the comparison.

First bike is a city bike and you ride it from house to work, how would you try to compare it to a bike you would ride on trail? Did you do that with both bike? You mentioned DH so I guess not.

Riding in a city, assuming a usual one, everything is flat. On a trail up and down hill, so the motor absolutely do not consume the same.

This is why you will always find range with elevation.

It is not because you maintained a speed at nearly 25 that your motor did not do anything. If you pedaled, you just do not know if you had to pedal to maintain 25, if so the motor was assisting. You want to know? Do twice the DH with assistance first, second none, there you will know. Also if the battery drain by 5% with assistance to zero/disabled, you have a battery issue too.

If you ride both bike on house/work, they have the same weight, you pedal the same and there is 50% difference in remaining battery, yes you have an issue.

Anyway, we lack inputs to help you correctly, hope this above could give you some clarity.

And I did not mean DH in that way. My daily commute has 70m ascent and descent, but still fairly flat. Check the elevation profile in the screenshot. There is a long straight which goes by a railroad track, with just a slight gradient. With this bike I can't hear the engine at all, but with the Canyon at this point I would have heard the engine shut down. In the morning when I leave from home, the first 5km is also a slight descent and good roads. With the Canyon, I usually see the first 1% drop at that 5km point. With the Crescent I'm 8% down at the same point.

Looking at the screenshot, does that look like a ride that would drain 49% of the battery? It did.

 

[whitymon]

Ok clearer.

Still need some thinking, but do you have on both the same profile of assistance? The configuration of both motor could be different from purchase.

So you need to see if the mode are aligned to have a fair comparison:
- max power delivered
- assist
- pedal response (should not be that dramatic)

It is possible that for example the max power delivered by the Crescent on same mode is absolutely different, I also advise you to play with these settings as they can drastically change your ride.

 

[shamrock]

Ok clearer.

Still need some thinking, but do you have on both the same profile of assistance? The configuration of both motor could be different from purchase.

So you need to see if the mode are aligned to have a fair comparison:
- max power delivered
- assist
- pedal response (should not be that dramatic)

It is possible that for example the max power delivered by the Crescent on same mode is absolutely different, I also advise you to play with these settings as they can drastically change your ride.

Canyon has the Bosch eBike system 2, so with that I can't fiddle with any settings. The smart system allows me to customize riding modes, but I haven't touched anything yet. So, same components but two different systems so I can't do a fair comparition. The strange thing is, that the Canyon actually feels more punchy in the same mode, but still uses less power. Since I've now only been testing in winter, I have only used the eMtb mode, the Schwalbes have quite a lot of resistance, although the weather has been in my favor and I have had the chance to ride on hard ice. In the summer I also ride on Tour mode, which on the Crescent seems to be Tour+. Haven't tried that yet. Also, with the Canyon the Turbo mode uses much more battery, with the Crescent it seems like just the same with eMtb and Turbo.

Btw, Crescent is probably a very weird brand to lots of people. Basically this is a bike by Cycleurope, a French made Gitane Black Hill FS. But because Crescent has a long history and good reputation in the Scandinavia, they just rebadge it as a Crescent here.

 

[whitymon]

Canyon has the Bosch eBike system 2, so with that I can't fiddle with any settings. The smart system allows me to customize riding modes, but I haven't touched anything yet. So, same components but two different systems so I can't do a fair comparition. The strange thing is, that the Canyon actually feels more punchy in the same mode, but still uses less power. Since I've now only been testing in winter, I have only used the eMtb mode, the Schwalbes have quite a lot of resistance, although the weather has been in my favor and I have had the chance to ride on hard ice. In the summer I also ride on Tour mode, which on the Crescent seems to be Tour+. Haven't tried that yet. Also, with the Canyon the Turbo mode uses much more battery, with the Crescent it seems like just the same with eMtb and Turbo.

Btw, Crescent is probably a very weird brand to lots of people. Basically this is a bike by Cycleurope, a French made Gitane Black Hill FS. But because Crescent has a long history and good reputation in the Scandinavia, they just rebadge it as a Crescent here.

Yeah I know the original brand, but honestly I have never ever seen one in France!

So my guess is that they are not using the same parameter of assistance. It is up to the bike manufacturer to set the settings not really the motor brand, then you cannot compare unfortunately. Should it be that different I have no clue.

 

[Joecrow]

The Crescent however is a completely different story. There's no chance to make it last even 50km.

I think you may have a problem with the battery.
I also have 2 bikes, one a 23 kg Bosch Gen 3 CX with a 400W battery which on ashfelt or hard packed unpaved mostly flat routes in ECO would normally gives me at least 50-60 km range. My other bike is a 25 kg Bosch Smart System Gen 4 CX with a 750W battery which on similar rides normally gives me at least 90-100 km and there seems to be very little difference in range between ECO and Tour+ although the initial accelaration in Tour+ is noticable better but once I get going on the flat it drops down to ECO I think.
It is difficult to compare apples with oranges but in my case both bikes are set up for trekking, so lights, which I use all the time, and not heavily treaded tires. For what it may be worth imo if I had a 500W battery in the Smart System bike I would expect a range, based on what I get with the 750W, of at least 60-70 km.

 

[shamrock]

Yeah I know the original brand, but honestly I have never ever seen one in France!

So my guess is that they are not using the same parameter of assistance. It is up to the bike manufacturer to set the settings not really the motor brand, then you cannot compare unfortunately. Should it be that different I have no clue.

But perhaps you have seen a Gitane This is just the same bike, just some differencies in parts. The Canyon btw has 12 gears, and that is one reason why I got this, with 9 gears. The 12 gear sprocket has so little clearance, in the winter it would sometimes fill up with snow and caused chains to skip. It's now my fourth set of KMC chains with the Canyon

I mean, these are the circumstances I have used the Canyon in ... and still got home without using half of the battery. I would understand the software being different and the Crescent giving more power, but it actually feels like it's giving less. With the Canyon the Turbo mode is just ridicilous, you can't even make a standing start with it. Well, you can, but there's so much punch you're just running through gears as fast as you can and there's no point in that.

 

[Joecrow]

I would understand the software being different and the Crescent giving more power, but it actually feels like it's giving less.

Something is wrong/faulty there I think. the CX motor in your Canyon is rated at 75 nm while the CX in the Smart System Crescent should I believe produce 85 nm. I can certainly feel the difference on my bikes the Smart System one really has more umphf and actually both bikes goes off like rockets if started in Turbo!

 

[shamrock]

Something is wrong/faulty there I think. the CX motor in your Canyon is rated at 75 nm while the CX in the Smart System Crescent should I believe produce 85 nm. I can certainly feel the difference on my bikes the Smart System one really has more umphf and actually both bikes goes off like rockets if started in Turbo!

Actually this EU spec Canyon also gives that 85Nm. I've been wondering what is the difference with these Bosch motors in different areas ... is it internal gearing? I don't believe they are revving it higher in the countries where it is allowed to assist over 25 km/h, that would not make any sense. I've seen some posts about the Canyon from the US, with the Speed engine and they don't like it at all. I think that the Speed model just has a longer internal gearing, so at the top speed it has the same revs as the CX.

 

[shamrock]

Take a look at this. The battery level, end the expected range. Yes, I forgot to turn the bike off before removing the battery so there is a warning about that But the range with 51% just doesn't make any sense to me. What do your bikes predict?

 

[Joecrow]

On the Smart System bike with the 750W battery I have 87% Charge and 47-99 km Range.

 

[shamrock]

This is what I'm used to with the Canyon. eMTB mode and 79km of predicted range on a full battery, and I have always gotten more out of it. The Crescent has never showed more than 40km on a full battery.

 

[Joecrow]

After you have fully charged the Crescent battery does it show as 100%?

 

[shamrock]

After you have fully charged the Crescent battery does it show as 100%?

Yes it does ... although with the Canyon I can drive 5km before I lose 1%. The Crescent drops 2% on the first 500 metres

 

[Tribey]

Same tyres, pressures and tubes??

 

[shamrock]

Same tyres, pressures and tubes??

Yes. Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pros ... although the Canyon has the heavier option, Crescent has the foldable, lighter version. In Canyon I have been using the tubes it came with, the Crescent now has Specialized tubes. My summmer tires are smaller, and the limit is just at 2.5 inches so I use different tubes with them. But I don't think that the tube would really matter that much. Pressures I keep high, because that is the only way the Ice Spiker Pro works on ice. About the pressure, I don't use a meter, I just check how much it deforms under weight, and adjust by that.

Nevertheless, since the tires are the same, and quite heavy ones, and pressure is on the high side, this can't matter that much.

 

[MvaNL]

Could it be that the algoritm of the emtb mode is different for each bike? Since this mode will automatically and dynamically adjust between Tour and Turbo. So the prediction of distance can also be influenced.

 

[shamrock]

Could it be that the algoritm of the emtb mode is different for each bike? Since this mode will automatically and dynamically adjust between Tour and Turbo. So the prediction of distance can also be influenced.

It could be, and I suspect that it is. But my style of riding, my cadence and my power input is the same. This is what makes it weird. Same rider, same motor, same battery, same route, same tires ... and I don't feel any difference with the bike having more input. If I would have to judge, I would say that the Canyon actually gives more power, but still uses less battery.

 

[Joecrow]

Could it be that the algoritm of the emtb mode is different for each bike? Since this mode will automatically and dynamically adjust between Tour and Turbo. So the prediction of distance can also be influenced.

I don't think that is so the OP did not indicate he was using emtb mode on the Crescent (if it is available even), though I could be wrong there, I believe Bosch is Bosch with little or no differencies with the same riding modes per bike manufacturer so if he is using much the same modes on each bike for the same ride....
If you hit the ! on the first range screen in the Flow app. you can get the details based on your riding style as per mine below.

 

[shamrock]

I don't think that is so the OP did not indicate he was using emtb mode on the Crescent (if it is available even), though I could be wrong there, I believe Bosch is Bosch with little or no differencies with the same riding modes per bike manufacturer so if he is using much the same modes on each bike for the same ride....
If you hit the ! on the first range screen in the Flow app. you can get the details based on your riding style as per mine below.
View attachment 153667

From the beginning, I told that I have been using the eMTB mode on both bikes. And the other one gives twice the range. Same motor, same battery, same tires, same driver and same route. But half the range.

 

[Joecrow]

From the beginning, I told that I have been using the eMTB mode on both bikes

Sorry missed that! Still think your battery is defective.

 

[whitymon]

Then either go to a shop or buy the service dongle and you will get all info.

 

[Shark58]

But the range with 51% just doesn't make any sense to me

While not connected to the bike the Flow app shows a range estimate from the lowest (normally ECO) to the highest (normally TURBO) support mode. If you want to see the range estimate for a specific mode you need to connect Flow to the bike and switch on the desired mode.

Generally speaking it is almost useless to compare the range estimates of an older bike, ridden many kilometers with those from a new bike. Bosch constantly calculates the estimate during rides and stores the resulting values in the drive unit. A new bike comes with factory standard values and shows those for some initial time. These values will change over time and probably trend towards those you are used from the older bike.

You can reset the range estimates to factory values on both bikes.

Other factors that could influence the estimates are ride mode customizations (check all modes for any changes from factory values), different crank length in eMTB mode, or the set value for light output (this will reduce battery energy available for the motor).

And last, you could have a faulty battery.

 

[shamrock]

While not connected to the bike the Flow app shows a range estimate from the lowest (normally ECO) to the highest (normally TURBO) support mode. If you want to see the range estimate for a specific mode you need to connect Flow to the bike and switch on the desired mode.

Generally speaking it is almost useless to compare the range estimates of an older bike, ridden many kilometers with those from a new bike. Bosch constantly calculates the estimate during rides and stores the resulting values in the drive unit. A new bike comes with factory standard values and shows those for some initial time. These values will change over time and probably trend towards those you are used from the older bike.

You can reset the range estimates to factory values on both bikes.

Other factors that could influence the estimates are ride mode customizations (check all modes for any changes from factory values), different crank length in eMTB mode, or the set value for light output (this will reduce battery energy available for the motor).

And last, you could have a faulty battery.

It is showing the same readings it did, when I ended my last drive and disconnected it. So although I took the screen shot while to bike was disconnected, it is showing the same as when it was connected. But this learning curve was something I thought about, and even asked about it the original post. However the eBike system 2 did not have such, it was showing 100km-ish ranges out of the box and it still does. So perhaps the Smart system is more adaptive by time?

I understand the estimates could be wrong. Canyon usually shows a bit less than the actual range would be, like now when it's showing 79km. The range would count down less than what I ride, if I would take it out now. But the battery comsumption is the thing that I still don't understand. Maybe I just have to find time to ride it empty and see if it learns something new. I just can't do it on workdays, because I don't want to run it empty halfway That bike is a pain to pedal without assist.