Bosch 2019 motor - Rumours

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Hi all,

Heard that Bosch are developing an all new motor for 2019. Lighter, smaller, quieter and decoupling to remove any friction once the motor assistance has stopped. Given that Bosch are the masters of motors I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

Interesting times ahead No doubt Brose, Yamaha and Shimano will be also developing their next generations of motors and cramming as much innovation as possible into them. Competition is good

Rob.

 

[Theolegit]

You been spying then rob!

 

[R120]

It will be interesting to see if any updated motors are retro compatible - with the Shimano i can see that being viable, mainly because of how they are mounted and the standard q factor, but not so sure about others.

 

[Slowroller]

It will be interesting to see if any updated motors are retro compatible - with the Shimano i can see that being viable, mainly because of how they are mounted and the standard q factor, but not so sure about others.

If they do that, they won't get you to buy a new bike tho.....

 

[R120]

All too true!

However the truth of the bike industry is somewhat murkier - Some manufacturers make more money off the parts thant the bikes - e.g Canyon don't actually make much money from selling bikes, their actual business model is being a bike manufacturer allows them to buy a huge amount of components direct from the likes of Shimano negotiated at the best price - they then offload the majority of these components to the likes of Chain Reaction, for a profit, and then they get sold on again to the consumer. being a bike manufacturer enables them to be one of if not the biggest B2B Shimano parts supplier in Europe, and thats where the real money is.

Hence there is more money to be made selling a motor upgrade in terms of pure profit, than actually selling a new bike.The key is the marketing, launch new bike with killer new motor to rave reviews, then 6 months later enable the far bigger market of existing bike owners to upgrade, based of their desire to driven by the reviews of the bike.

 

[Blackbird]

Bosch has announced that they will introduce gradient dependant walk assist and support for shorter cranks for 2019. This update will be released for all CX motors up to 2016

 

[SquireRides]

No sign of a new motor on the recently announced 2019 Cubes, Scotts etc. So I assume they'll get incorporated in 'late' 2019 bikes.

Bosch are certainly over-due an update since Shimano and Brose leap-frogged them on size and noise levels. I suspect Brose and Shimano will continue with small refinements to their motors at least through 2019, so Bosch could be back on top for 2019/2020 bikes.

 

[EddieJ]

Bosch are certainly over-due an update since Shimano and Brose leap-frogged them on noise level.

Care to show/share the fact based written evidence to support that claim?


.

 

[SquireRides]

Care to show/share the fact based written evidence to support that claim?


.

Noise? No. Anecdotal only. Majority of 3rd party reviews Ive read/watched comment on volume of Bosch vs Spesch and Shimano. And my own experience with Bosch.
Size and weight? Yeah, just look at them.

 

[SquireRides]

Would be cool though if the bike/motor manufacturers included decibel ranges in their specs

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Bosch, in my opinion, is the noisiest motor. The screen also looks dated compared to a Shimano and Yamaha. This is after riding all the motors.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Also Bosch has a fair bit of resistance once motor decouples, compared to the others.

 

[EddieJ]

So no evidence based facts then, just opinion.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

So no evidence based facts then, just opinion.

Nope. I don’t think anyone has actually bothered to measure the differences in motor resistance. Most people are happy with their own testing by riding ?

Let’s face it though, the Bosch is looking pretty dated now. It’s big, heavy (4KG, vs the likes of the new Brose Mag S at 2.9KG and Shimano E8000 at 2.88KG) and given it’s size and weight, lacks power compared to to others, at 75NM torque.

Just curious, have you ridden and compared the Bosch to Brose and Shimano? If so how did you feel it compared in resistance?

 

[eFat]

Just curious, have you ridden and compared the Bosch to Brose

I have Brose and Bosch and if there is a difference it's not that much... Of course I have 4.8" flat tires so it doesn't help!

 

[R120]

So much of it is down to how the E part is Integrated into the Bike part, regardless of the motor. We have a Bergamont E-Ville which runs a Bosch motor with Alfine DI2.

I have to date not ridden an E-Bike where everything is as seamlessly integrated and unnoticeable in terms of just getting on and riding as this bike, and a lot fo that is to do with the Bosch software, which integrates the Shimano DI2 system as well.

What Bosch do very well is the software, and the user interface - the main problem with the current user interfaces is that they are ugly, though i think the new Kiox display solves this to some extent, and also they need to get the weight and dimensions down of the motor. I believe part of the weight is down to running the small cogs and needing the internal gearing to do this within the motor housing? Also i think the small cog raises all sort of other issues, from minimal teeth in contact with the chain on a lot of bikes that use idlers, to mud clogging etc.

If i was looking at a non MTB e bike i would look for a Bosch powered system

 

[EddieJ]

Just curious, have you ridden and compared the Bosch to Brose and Shimano? If so how did you feel it compared in resistance?

I currently have a two bikes on demo, a Bosch powered one, and a Shimano powered one. I'm also due in just a few weeks time to take on a totally unrelated bike that I'm not currently allowed to discuss. I did have the good fortune to ride a Brose powered bike for the second time this evening during our weekly group ride though, and being a very high spec Levo, it was never really going to disappoint.

Noise wise, my opinion is different to what is being claimed, but I have already mentioned elsewhere that tone, pitch, cadence, assist level, frame material, and riding conditions all play a major role in 'perceived' loudness for each DU. Without correctly calibrated noise testing equipment, people's opinion including my own, of what is the quietest, is completely meaningless and irrelevant. I would stick my neck out and say that for the most part, comparing the three DU's mentioned, that for 70% of the time, that the Brose DU is quieter than the Bosch. There are climbs and cadence where it isn't though. As said though, without controlled conditions and test equipment, it is all meaningless. I have also ridden some Bosch powered bikes, that have left me wondering if the motor is even running, and others that leave no doubt of it. Weird how even between DU's of the same brand and type, that differences appear.

I would agree that the transition from assist to non assist is more linear on the Shimano and Brose DU, but in the case of the Shimano DU, I'm not overly keen on where it produces torque against cadence. I haven't ridden the Brose enough yet to format an opinion about that, but as the owner had used the app to alter settings, it wouldn't have been easy to gauge.

 

[SquireRides]

"Without correctly calibrated noise testing equipment, people's opinion including my own, of what is the quietest, is completely meaningless and irrelevant."

Perception is probably the most useful indicator we have. Bike noise as a whole (from motor, chainset, cables clanking around) will all vary depending on the current riding style and conditions. Whether a motor is noisy relative to another motor, probably shouldn't be taken in isolation (i.e. my suggestion about publishing dB is probably less useful than subjective opinions).

For instance.

My motor sounds 'too loud' to me when I am spinning on the road. It's not too loud when I am hammering it hard along rough trails because everything else is loud too. It is too loud when I am in chair-lift mode going up a hilly trail behind non-ebike riders

So, my point? I value all your opinions much more than calibrated noise testing equipment.

 

[Doomanic]

IME, the Bosch DU is generally noisier than the Brose or Shimano DUs. However, I have ridden along side a Shimano unit that drowned out the noise of the Bosch so much that even I couldn’t hear it despite being sat on top of it and @Dax has the annoying habit of over revving his Brose unit which then sounds exactly like my Bosch did when the bearings failed and is again loud enough to drown out my Bosch.

 

[MattyB]

We can argue the point over the noise of the different options all day, but IMO it's not something that many people are going to choose their bike on - for most things like price, spec, travel, looks and geometry are going to win out. What isn't up for debate is that the current Bosch motor is bigger and heavier than the competition, and the dimensions do limit frame designers when it comes to geometry as well as increasing the AUW.

I personally like the power delivery and characteristics of the Bosch bikes I have ridden (though I would prefer a bigger chainring and less drag when assistance disengages) and feel comfortable with the brand and support, but I wouldn't buy one at the current time because the alternatives are now better in ways that matter more to me. The competition has moved on, and Bosch will need a new power unit in the near future if it isn't to fall out of favour with the big bike manufacturers who have gone with it until now. I am sure they know this though and are likely to bring something out pretty soon that puts them back near the top of the class again.

 

[More-read-than-ride]

Any fresh rumors on dates for the new Bosch motor?

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

I like irony of it all

Our electric bikes make more noise than our old bikes while our electric cars make less noise than our old cars

 

[Sijmes]

Didn't Steve from EMBN quickly show a Bosch generation 4 chainring at Sea Otter? Hinting that the industry is already aware and preparing parts for the new motor.

 

[SquireRides]

Didn't Steve from EMBN quickly show a Bosch generation 4 chainring at Sea Otter? Hinting that the industry is already aware and preparing parts for the new motor.

I noticed that too... Not like EMBN to leak news... I've not heard the use of generation numbers WRT Bosch motors. I did wonder whether he was maybe referring to the newer Active Line motors, as those are currently the latest gen?

 

[R120]

Pretty sure it’s a definite the new Bosch will use conventional chainrings

 

[MattyB]

I noticed that too... Not like EMBN to leak news... I've not heard the use of generation numbers WRT Bosch motors. I did wonder whether he was maybe referring to the newer Active Line motors, as those are currently the latest gen?

They were the KMC ones - see 8m10...


Link here - they seem to be available now, the description of "Performance Line" and "Gen 3" is intriguing...

"The best manufacturing and hardening processes make the KMC pinions for Bosch e-bike motors extremely resistant. They are ideal for the drive systems of the Performance Line and Active Line.

...For Bosch 3rd generation"

EDIT - Performance Line are different from the Performance Line CX, so I guess the CX remain limited to the 20 odd teeth until a new (presumably ungeared) motor comes out.

 

[Sijmes]

I noticed that too... Not like EMBN to leak news... I've not heard the use of generation numbers WRT Bosch motors. I did wonder whether he was maybe referring to the newer Active Line motors, as those are currently the latest gen?

Did he give the impression that it was classified info, or are we just eager to believe ? ?