Big Brose motor upgrade now available for older motors.

[Bearing Man]

Want a stronger, reliable and more watertight Brose motor? This video shows what we're doing at Performance Line Bearings to achieve this and how we're doing it.
This service is available for ALL Brose motors regardless if it's for a specialized or a Bulls etc., made in 2015 or 2020, whether it's a Brose T, S, TF or S-Mag. If you want piece of mind, it's worth a look.

 

[Murch]

Great insight as always. Have you been able to take apart any of the newer "fixed" motors to see what they have changed and if it's working?

 

[Bearing Man]

Some of this "newer" technology is what we're using. The sprag bearings for example, although still being the wrong bearing for the job, the new ones as you can see in the video are twice the size of the originals and will withstand an off or a pedal strike much better. We have not seen any of the sealing required to save these motors added by Brose yet, and this is the main killer of these motors off road. A bearing can be fixed, a drowned motor can't always be bought back to life.

 

[Zimmerframe]

That was the most boring ...... (subject) .. really interesting video I've seen all year ! (and probably last year .. and maybe next year).

Nice work ! Good to know we have a back up plan down the road.

You might not put this on-line as there are probably other factors to include, but is there a fixed price for instance for a NEW 1.2 or 1.3 if someone wanted to upgrade for peace of mind before they destroy their motor. So if not, don't worry.

I'm guessing a used motor is going to cost more as it will be dirty/wet and have other issues to fix at the same time.

I think you've said previously that you've tried to work with Brose, it's a shame they don't take your feedback to help improve the product going forward and for replacements rather than none incremental upgrades.

 

[Roger20]

An excellent video and very professional. It's clear you have put a lot of thought and effort into this which bodes well for the long term confidence of Specialized owners.

 

[Mikerb]

Brilliant. It would certainly add huge amounts of confidence for anyone using a motor modded by PLB. It does make you wonder why Brose themselves leave so many ( fairly obvious) engineered weaknesses in a motor designed for mtb!
I am one of the lucky ones with extended warranty on my MY19 Mag s motor but if that were not the case I would be seriously thinking of sending even a healthy motor to PLB for that upgrade.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Oh my days, my specialized emtb's can last even longer. Sweet!!! ?

 

[Bearing Man]

That was the most boring ...... (subject) .. really interesting video I've seen all year ! (and probably last year .. and maybe next year).

Nice work ! Good to know we have a back up plan down the road.

You might not put this on-line as there are probably other factors to include, but is there a fixed price for instance for a NEW 1.2 or 1.3 if someone wanted to upgrade for peace of mind before they destroy their motor. So if not, don't worry.

I'm guessing a used motor is going to cost more as it will be dirty/wet and have other issues to fix at the same time.

I think you've said previously that you've tried to work with Brose, it's a shame they don't take your feedback to help improve the product going forward and for replacements rather than none incremental upgrades.

Thank you for your kind words Zimmerframe. But as you also said, I can't put prices on here as prices change. But, I have put them on our web page here https://www.performancelinebearings.com/brose-motor-upgrade-service/

You are also right about older motors and there is a section that covers this... However, if we find something bad inside your motor while upgrading it, it will save later failure and upset

Bosch have taken away many of the failure points with their Gen 4 motors and that's not a good thing for me. If motors don't fail, I will have to start my paper-round again to pay the bills!

 

[Zimmerframe]

If motors don't fail, I will have to start my paper-round again to pay the bills!

At the same time installing "Performance Line" weatherproof letterbox upgrade gaskets with NEW "No Squeak" letterbox upgraded bearings ?

 

[Rodders1]

Thank you for your kind words Zimmerframe. But as you also said, I can't put prices on here as prices change. But, I have put them on our web page here Brose motor upgrade service -

You are also right about older motors and there is a section that covers this... However, if we find something bad inside your motor while upgrading it, it will save later failure and upset

Bosch have taken away many of the failure points with their Gen 4 motors and that's not a good thing for me. If motors don't fail, I will have to start my paper-round again to pay the bills!

Hi have to say its a first class video, and a sad reflection of modern design of an item that will spend many years of use in dusty / muddy and in my case wet Welsh weather and persistent cleaning!! My Levo '19 is on a new motor already and benefiting in the extra guarantee this year of bike has been given. So I have an easy question....can you buy, and be able to fit the outer X seals to delay the inevitable water ingress and future rebuild when the warranty expires?

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi have to say its a first class video, and a sad reflection of modern design of an item that will spend many years of use in dusty / muddy and in my case wet Welsh weather and persistent cleaning!! My Levo '19 is on a new motor already and benefiting in the extra guarantee this year of bike has been given. So I have an easy question....can you buy, and be able to fit the outer X seals to delay the inevitable water ingress and future rebuild when the warranty expires?

? Can't see why not? I will see if I can source some small tubes of waterproof grease and make a little kit ?

 

[Levo Laland]

An outer seal kit only would be good and could be used on motors that are still under warranty. I’ll be sending you my motor for the upgrade the minute my warranty runs out!

 

[jooles]

What a fantastic video and engineering; clear solution to a common problem.

My biggest bugbear about EMtb motors is their suitability for wet, muddy and generally crud conditions typical for 8 months of the year in the UK.

The whole point of EMtb is how they make crud riding much more fun. However the current crop of motors seem to be designed, as stated in BM video for road use. And it seems little has been done to change this focussing more on torque, motor settings and power delivery.

To me, why buy Shimano is you can’t even replace a bearing and water ingress is almost a given. If aftermarket solutions like this apply to Brose, Bosch, Yam why buy Shimano ?

One question to BM; if the crank is already scarred by a rough bearing can you re-skim the shaft ? Is it worth replacing if not or would you potentially need a new crank ?

Additionally will you ever be able to do the same on E8000/7000/EP ?

 

[nmb1970]

love this topic and I'm considering sending mine for the upgrade. I have a brose CB (specialized 1.2E) motor from a 18/19 kenevo comp gen1. What kind of upgrade do I need?

 

[Bearing Man]

What a fantastic video and engineering; clear solution to a common problem.

My biggest bugbear about EMtb motors is their suitability for wet, muddy and generally crud conditions typical for 8 months of the year in the UK.

The whole point of EMtb is how they make crud riding much more fun. However the current crop of motors seem to be designed, as stated in BM video for road use. And it seems little has been done to change this focussing more on torque, motor settings and power delivery.

To me, why buy Shimano is you can’t even replace a bearing and water ingress is almost a given. If aftermarket solutions like this apply to Brose, Bosch, Yam why buy Shimano ?

One question to BM; if the crank is already scarred by a rough bearing can you re-skim the shaft ? Is it worth replacing if not or would you potentially need a new crank ?

Additionally will you ever be able to do the same on E8000/7000/EP ?

They do make crud riding fun, but you would not have done this to your old bike because you would have had to get off and carry it. If you had have been able to ride through all that crud, your old bike would have lasted 5 minutes too ?
The crankshaft needle roller bearing surface can be machined and sleeved, or a larger bearing fitted, but the sprag bearings are critical on size and require a rock hard surface. We have looked at every option of re-working the crank and none are so far economically viable. If we get enough, that day may come, but for now it's a new or good condition used crank.
We can do Shimano E7 and 8000 but we wont as they have an inherent software problem that writes the motor off. It was working out that if we were the last people to touch the motor, we got the blame. I didn't like replacing motors for something that wasn't my fault. I still have bearings and parts for them but we refuse to work on them so please don't ask.

 

[Bearing Man]

love this topic and I'm considering sending mine for the upgrade. I have a brose CB (specialized 1.2E) motor from a 18/19 kenevo comp gen1. What kind of upgrade do I need?

If it's still in warranty, none! If it's out of warranty the S&T upgrade is the right one.

 

[Roger20]

Some of this "newer" technology is what we're using. The sprag bearings for example, although still being the wrong bearing for the job, the new ones as you can see in the video are twice the size of the originals and will withstand an off or a pedal strike much better. We have not seen any of the sealing required to save these motors added by Brose yet, and this is the main killer of these motors off road. A bearing can be fixed, a drowned motor can't always be bought back to life.

Given the upgrades you know Brose have already done to 2020/21 motors, if you were a betting man, would you think Brose will now be installing an internal sprag clutch water seal on the crank, as pioneered by you?

Or perhaps they can't because you've patented it ?

 

[nmb1970]

If it's still in warranty, none! If it's out of warranty the S&T upgrade is the right one.

out of warranty despite very few kms. maybe I'll inspect after winter.

 

[jooles]

They do make crud riding fun, but you would not have done this to your old bike because you would have had to get off and carry it. If you had have been able to ride through all that crud, your old bike would have lasted 5 minutes too ?
The crankshaft needle roller bearing surface can be machined and sleeved, or a larger bearing fitted, but the sprag bearings are critical on size and require a rock hard surface. We have looked at every option of re-working the crank and none are so far economically viable. If we get enough, that day may come, but for now it's a new or good condition used crank.
We can do Shimano E7 and 8000 but we wont as they have an inherent software problem that writes the motor off. It was working out that if we were the last people to touch the motor, we got the blame. I didn't like replacing motors for something that wasn't my fault. I still have bearings and parts for them but we refuse to work on them so please don't ask.

Thanks. I did and still do ride my non ebike in crud. However I can pull and press bearings myself and replace fork seals etc, however can’t touch my e800. But being now into 50’s riding in crud isn’t as much fun as in 20’s.

The e8000 sounds like is has a “component lock” like ‘intelligent‘ car parts. The latter to ensure a registered garage only deals with the maintenance at £145 an hour plus VAT. However sounds like Shim assume no maintenance is required on their motors. I can confirm that to be wrong ;-)

If the EP8 has this security feature as well then that’s Shim off my list next. If you need a new motor every year that’s uneconomic. A new bearing service is very viable. I’ll just have to wait until my current e8000 dies. Hopefully not soon....and I won’t ask you for a repair.

May make the prospect of a used Spesh viable too. Unless crank shaft is worn and you wouldn’t know that.

Maybe one day a motor manufacturer will look into easier maintenance of that crucial but of kit bolted to your EMtb, rather than just torque, power tuning and cadence sensitivity.......

 

[Rosemount]

What a fantastic video and engineering; clear solution to a common problem.

My biggest bugbear about EMtb motors is their suitability for wet, muddy and generally crud conditions typical for 8 months of the year in the UK.

The whole point of EMtb is how they make crud riding much more fun. However the current crop of motors seem to be designed, as stated in BM video for road use. And it seems little has been done to change this focussing more on torque, motor settings and power delivery.

To me, why buy Shimano is you can’t even replace a bearing and water ingress is almost a given. If aftermarket solutions like this apply to Brose, Bosch, Yam why buy Shimano ?

One question to BM; if the crank is already scarred by a rough bearing can you re-skim the shaft ? Is it worth replacing if not or would you potentially need a new crank ?

Additionally will you ever be able to do the same on E8000/7000/EP ?

Not just wet and muddy conditions . Fine dry dust can / will enter Brose motors too !
I have been on the phone to TBM discussing a grinding when I pedal back wards . Sounds like grit in the right side crank bearing .

TBM has put me in contact with a guy in Australia who works on Brose motors . Wish me luck .

 

[Coolcmsc]

Brilliant. It would certainly add huge amounts of confidence for anyone using a motor modded by PLB. It does make you wonder why Brose themselves leave so many ( fairly obvious) engineered weaknesses in a motor designed for mtb!
I am one of the lucky ones with extended warranty on my MY19 Mag s motor but if that were not the case I would be seriously thinking of sending even a healthy motor to PLB for that upgrade.

Ha! I’m one of those lucky ones with the extended warranty. If you call three motors lucky (including the combined 25Km push back to the car up and down dale for two of those). Adding up the time waiting for an appointment for a fix, then travelling to the LBS, then the diagnosis, then the new motor coming from Specialized, then fixing it, then finding time to go and pick it up and then multiplying by three does tend to diminish the warm feeling a long warranty gives....

 

[Mikerb]

my 19 motor and zero problems...........and when/if it does I have another emtb .

 

[Coolcmsc]

my 19 motor and zero problems...........and when/if it does I have another emtb .

Indeed. And there have been so many Levos sold, there’ll be enough issues, even with a good design, to guarantee we’ll see people like me popping up quite often in forums.

A denominator thing. Just can’t tell the % of issues without the denominator in the math.

Whilst it ain’t going to happen, I’d like to see manufacturers publishing their % failure rates.

That they don’t tells us a number of things, one of which is that there isn’t a motor out there that’s surviving everything....

 

[Mikerb]

If you had been tracking this for a while you would know that Specialized did say what their warranty rate was ( for motors). From memory I think that figure was less than 5% and at the time they considered a good number of those were due to inappropriate use of pressure washers etc. When they recognised a weakness in the sprag bearing and belt they addressed it in terms of new motors off the production line and extended warranties for existing users.

 

[Coolcmsc]

If you had been tracking this for a while you would know that Specialized did say what their warranty rate was ( for motors). From memory I think that figure was less than 5% and at the time they considered a good number of those were due to inappropriate use of pressure washers etc. When they recognised a weakness in the sprag bearing and belt they addressed it in terms of new motors off the production line and extended warranties for existing users.

Thanks - missed that. It fits. We don’t know the denominator. Perhaps it’s worse now if they’ve stopped publishing it. After all, if it down below 1% from 5% that might be a good stat to publish once they’d judged publishing was worth it at a 5% rate....

But that’s just me being cheeky. I agree with you ?

I’m less sure about the pressure hose thing however. Of course, a pressure hose will cause a problem in stuffed into certain areas. But I have two thoughts on that:
1. Whooshing through a puddle generates high pressure water entry around the motor area and all the ‘shut lines’ let water in easily onto the motor. The left hand beating on the 2.1 still isn’t sealed. Three LBS Specialized specialist LBS’s have independently told me that ‘moisture’ entry is a problem from the back in the area of that rubbery strip from side to side near the swing arm adding that the new version of that for 2020 didnt make any difference to the amount of dirty water at the back of the motor when dropped down for cable work and, of course, removing the motor.
2. I have washed my bikes with a slow running hose flowing gently down over my bike and a soft brush for 2 decades. I started using a bucket putting watef on the bike with only the soft brush when I bought the 2020 Levo (due to comments here and elsewhere and a well known vid by Rob Rides with Berkshire Bikes in 2019. The motor in my Levo had the ‘sealed’ drive side bearing from new. Two of my motor failures are due to water alone I’m told by the LBS. The third was the belt. This was info given to my LBS by Specialized my LBS told me and I see no reason for my LBS to lie.

 

[Mikerb]

A properly positioned rear mudguard together with the rubber insert and motofoam insert that Spesh introduced means very little gets in the motor casing via that route. One other area you could plug however with some motofoam is where the speed sensor cable enters. I took the non drive side motor cover off my bike after a year of British winter plus unusually dry dusty British summer......just a bit of dust in there. Any water entering from those points would merely exit via the drain hole so I do not see that as any issue.

Performance line Bearings have shown exactly where water can ingress inside the motor itself and that is where the crankshaft leaves on both sides of the motor and one corner point of the casing gasket .....but that can potentially allow water into the PCB area not the rest of the motor. The ingress points on the crankshaft are unlikely to allow much if any water ingress whilst riding.....but will if water is aimed at those areas at 90 degrees. Given the motor warranty rate clearly the vast majority of users are not getting sufficient ingress of water or dust via those routes to cause a motor failure within the warranty period. Feedback on the reasons for a motor failure by the LBS or via the LBS from Spcialized are not based on any investigation. Motors returned under warranty are returned to Brose who dismantle them. Onlt then is the reason for failure known.

Again when there were a number of forum posts referring to belt failures, Specialized commented that none of the motors returned and checked by Brose ,had indeed been caused by belt failures. We all know now that what was actually happening was sprag clutch failure which is why both sprag clutches have now been replaced with versions that have a higher max force rating. That is turn meant uprating the belt. As far as I know Specialized have not said what they believe was the cause of Sprag bearing failures given the originals already had a pretty high nm rating ( c 250nm).

Performance line bearings believe the most probably cause of sprag bearing failures is pedal strikes. I can see how that would cause issues. Personally I believe heavy landings from jumps could also initiate that damage. ( NB Levo is categorised as a "Condition 4" bike...ie all mountain/trail.........limited to small jumps!!) . I am not aiming critism for anyone regarding how they use or clean their bike but there have to be some factors at play here beyond the design of the motor, when the majority of people have no problems with the motor, whilst others have repeated motor problems often in a short period of time.

 

[Rosemount]

A properly positioned rear mudguard together with the rubber insert and motofoam insert that Spesh introduced means very little gets in the motor casing via that route. One other area you could plug however with some motofoam is where the speed sensor cable enters. I took the non drive side motor cover off my bike after a year of British winter plus unusually dry dusty British summer......just a bit of dust in there. Any water entering from those points would merely exit via the drain hole so I do not see that as any issue.

Performance line Bearings have shown exactly where water can ingress inside the motor itself and that is where the crankshaft leaves on both sides of the motor and one corner point of the casing gasket .....but that can potentially allow water into the PCB area not the rest of the motor. The ingress points on the crankshaft are unlikely to allow much if any water ingress whilst riding.....but will if water is aimed at those areas at 90 degrees. Given the motor warranty rate clearly the vast majority of users are not getting sufficient ingress of water or dust via those routes to cause a motor failure within the warranty period. Feedback on the reasons for a motor failure by the LBS or via the LBS from Spcialized are not based on any investigation. Motors returned under warranty are returned to Brose who dismantle them. Onlt then is the reason for failure known.

Again when there were a number of forum posts referring to belt failures, Specialized commented that none of the motors returned and checked by Brose ,had indeed been caused by belt failures. We all know now that what was actually happening was sprag clutch failure which is why both sprag clutches have now been replaced with versions that have a higher max force rating. That is turn meant uprating the belt. As far as I know Specialized have not said what they believe was the cause of Sprag bearing failures given the originals already had a pretty high nm rating ( c 250nm).

Performance line bearings believe the most probably cause of sprag bearing failures is pedal strikes. I can see how that would cause issues. Personally I believe heavy landings from jumps could also initiate that damage. ( NB Levo is categorised as a "Condition 4" bike...ie all mountain/trail.........limited to small jumps!!) . I am not aiming critism for anyone regarding how they use or clean their bike but there have to be some factors at play here beyond the design of the motor, when the majority of people have no problems with the motor, whilst others have repeated motor problems often in a short period of time.

4 months 2 motors ...
The Brose bearings have plastic cages . And no seal against water or dust ingress . Poor design ...

About to upgrade the bearings and add seals myself . Spesh can jam their warranty and the labour fee because its a 2nd hand bike where the sun don`t shine .

 

[Bearing Man]

Thanks. I did and still do ride my non ebike in crud. However I can pull and press bearings myself and replace fork seals etc, however can’t touch my e800. But being now into 50’s riding in crud isn’t as much fun as in 20’s.

The e8000 sounds like is has a “component lock” like ‘intelligent‘ car parts. The latter to ensure a registered garage only deals with the maintenance at £145 an hour plus VAT. However sounds like Shim assume no maintenance is required on their motors. I can confirm that to be wrong ;-)

If the EP8 has this security feature as well then that’s Shim off my list next. If you need a new motor every year that’s uneconomic. A new bearing service is very viable. I’ll just have to wait until my current e8000 dies. Hopefully not soon....and I won’t ask you for a repair.

May make the prospect of a used Spesh viable too. Unless crank shaft is worn and you wouldn’t know that.

Maybe one day a motor manufacturer will look into easier maintenance of that crucial but of kit bolted to your EMtb, rather than just torque, power tuning and cadence sensitivity.......

Sorry, Shimano are not that mean to put some sort of "component lock" in yet, they just suffer software failures whether you touch them or not. There are whole groups on Facebook who discuss this issue at length.

 

[Coolcmsc]

A properly positioned rear mudguard together with the rubber insert and motofoam insert that Spesh introduced means very little gets in the motor casing via that route. One other area you could plug however with some motofoam is where the speed sensor cable enters. I took the non drive side motor cover off my bike after a year of British winter plus unusually dry dusty British summer......just a bit of dust in there. Any water entering from those points would merely exit via the drain hole so I do not see that as any issue.

Performance line Bearings have shown exactly where water can ingress inside the motor itself and that is where the crankshaft leaves on both sides of the motor and one corner point of the casing gasket .....but that can potentially allow water into the PCB area not the rest of the motor. The ingress points on the crankshaft are unlikely to allow much if any water ingress whilst riding.....but will if water is aimed at those areas at 90 degrees. Given the motor warranty rate clearly the vast majority of users are not getting sufficient ingress of water or dust via those routes to cause a motor failure within the warranty period. Feedback on the reasons for a motor failure by the LBS or via the LBS from Spcialized are not based on any investigation. Motors returned under warranty are returned to Brose who dismantle them. Onlt then is the reason for failure known.

Again when there were a number of forum posts referring to belt failures, Specialized commented that none of the motors returned and checked by Brose ,had indeed been caused by belt failures. We all know now that what was actually happening was sprag clutch failure which is why both sprag clutches have now been replaced with versions that have a higher max force rating. That is turn meant uprating the belt. As far as I know Specialized have not said what they believe was the cause of Sprag bearing failures given the originals already had a pretty high nm rating ( c 250nm).

Performance line bearings believe the most probably cause of sprag bearing failures is pedal strikes. I can see how that would cause issues. Personally I believe heavy landings from jumps could also initiate that damage. ( NB Levo is categorised as a "Condition 4" bike...ie all mountain/trail.........limited to small jumps!!) . I am not aiming critism for anyone regarding how they use or clean their bike but there have to be some factors at play here beyond the design of the motor, when the majority of people have no problems with the motor, whilst others have repeated motor problems often in a short period of time.

This is really helpful thanks ?

Concerning rear mudguards, I fitted the correct Seco version for my 2020 Levo before the first ride and have still had the three Brose 2.1 motor failures I mentioned above.

So, my experience certainly confirms your observations about water ingress via the bearings. Thank you.

Anybody who hasn’t seen the very effective bespoke two part Seco Mudguard link elsewhere in the forum, visit Specialized Levo 2019/2020/2021 Mudguard | DualGuard V2 By SicoMTB.

I have no affiliation whatsoever.

This mudguard doesn’t cause added problems with mud accumulation because the two parts move over each other with suspension movement. It might reduce the maximum width of tyre fit, but I don’t know as I haven’t tried that. They are responsive and would advise if asked.

 

[Mikerb]

Whatever works.....I use a Mudhugger front mudguard on the rear ( fixed to seat stays) slightly cut down , plus a Halfords £3 enduro front mudguard copy fixed separately on the chainstays to form a 2 piece rear mudguard..total cost £30. For bike cleaning I only ever use warm water and a sponge.