Big battery explosion inside house

[Tooks]

Of course we have a National Grid but it is nowhere near the sort of capacity we would need to enable the charging of more and more EVs and heat pumps. Enlargeing it is going to be hugely expensive and destructive. What you forget is that in order to deliver electricity, a physical circuit of sufficient capacity is permanently required from generation sources to every single point of consumption. It is a hugely expensive way to distribute energy. It is already the case that if most folk had EVs and most got home from work and plugged in their EVS at 6 or 7 pm, the entire estate of houses would suffer a blackout.......or all those chargers would only get a very low charge rate. More likely is that EV charging would not be enabled until after midnight and cut off before 7am.

Right now, and in the theoretical scenario you describe, maybe.

But, that’s catastrophising a little I think, as that’s not actually the situation and the link I posted from National Grid demonstrates how they’re planning for it.

That’s before we get to things like ‘vehicle to grid’ where millions of EVs can actually support the grid at peak demand, it’s real and it can happen.

Worse case scenario, even if vehicles could only charge at home between midnight and 0630, that’s still 150 miles+ of range for each and every car plugged in. That’s 4 or 5 days mileage for your average driver here in the UK. If you need more, there will be other options.

Putting in place the infrastructure to support fossil fuel use has been enormously expensive as well, and continues to be so. As for destructive, the current setup is about as destructive as it gets, so no contest really.

Anyway, I don’t post this stuff for an argument, it’s an EMTB forum, mine and yours hobby presumably, and it’s also far away from a dodgy ebike battery going up in flames.

 

[irie]

Right now, and in the theoretical scenario you describe, maybe.

But, that’s catastrophising a little I think, as that’s not actually the situation and the link I posted from National Grid demonstrates how they’re planning for it.

That’s before we get to things like ‘vehicle to grid’ where millions of EVs can actually support the grid at peak demand, it’s real and it can happen.

Worse case scenario, even if vehicles could only charge at home between midnight and 0630, that’s still 150 miles+ of range for each and every car plugged in. That’s 4 or 5 days mileage for your average driver here in the UK. If you need more, there will be other options.

Putting in place the infrastructure to support fossil fuel use has been enormously expensive as well, and continues to be so. As for destructive, the current setup is about as destructive as it gets, so no contest really.

Anyway, I don’t post this stuff for an argument, it’s an EMTB forum, mine and yours hobby presumably, and it’s also far away from a dodgy ebike battery going up in flames.

Anyway, I don’t post this stuff for an argument, it’s an EMTB forum, mine and yours hobby presumably, and it’s also far away from a dodgy ebike battery going up in flames.

If you don't want an argument then you should refrain from posting La-La Land* stuff like this. Thanks.

* Also known as 'cloud-cuckoo-land'.

 

[Tooks]

If you don't want an argument then you should refrain from posting La-La Land* stuff like this. Thanks.

* Also known as 'cloud-cuckoo-land'.

I’ve been very careful to stick to just addressing points raised, you as usual just seem keen to ‘play the man’ at the earliest opportunity.

I’ve driven ICE vehicles for nearly 30 years, longer if you count tractors on the farm, and EVs of some sort or another for over 10. I have some experience in both camps, and can’t really see why EVs are considered part of the problem rather than a lower lifetime impact part of the solution nor how ‘carrying on and doing nothing’ helps the situation any.

 

[Arminius]

Mankind can work on CO2 reductions but I think money, i.e. financial damages from natural catastrophes that soon will not be possible to be covered by insurers or state funds, will be the greater issue to deal with. Findings for Europe:

Source: Economic losses from weather- and climate-related extremes in Europe
„Between 1980 and 2023, climate-related extremes amounted to an estimated EUR 738 billion (2023 prices) in the EU. Hydrological hazards (floods) account for 44% and meteorological hazards (storms, including lightning and hail) for almost 29% of the total. For the climatological hazards, heat waves cause almost 19% of the total losses (but are responsible for 95% of the fatalities) while the remaining 8% are caused by droughts, forest fires and cold waves together.

Relatively few events are responsible for most of the economic losses: 5% of climate-related events with the biggest losses are responsible for 61% of losses, and 1% of the events cause 28% of losses. However, 66% of events with the smallest losses recorded total only 5% of the losses (calculations based on the original dataset). The total losses vary significantly from year to year. This interannual variability is due to the development of assets in vulnerable areas and potential reporting bias over timeand because most types of weather- and climate-related extremes across the world have become more severe and frequent as a result of human-caused climate change.

The average annual (constant 2023 EUR prices) economic losses were around EUR 8.5 billion in 1980-1989, 14.0 billion in 1990-1999, 15.8 billion in 2000-2009, 17.8 billion in 2010-2019 and 44.5 billion for the period 2020-2023. A statistical analysis of a 30-year moving average reveals that economic losses increased over time. A linear trendline through these 30-year averages represent a 53% increase from 2009 to 2023, or 2.9% per year.

The five years with highest annual values are:

• 2021 (EUR 63.0 billion);
• 2022 (56.0 billion);
• 2002 (45.7 billion);
• 2023 (43.9 billion);
• 1999 (36.7 billion).

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicts that climate-related extreme events will become more frequent and severe around the world. This affects multiple sectors and causes systemic failures across Europe, creating greater economic losses.“

 

[irie]

most types of weather- and climate-related extremes across the world have become more severe and frequent as a result of human-caused climate change

Very glib and credible sounding that human-caused climate change is responsible for these climate extremes ... until the lack of supporting scientific evidence becomes apparent.

 

[RustyMTB]

Can you ladies take this gammony shite to Pistonheads where it belongs? This is supposed to be a mountain bike forum.

 

[Arminius]

E (!] -Mountainbike forum!

Amazing how a thread can go that quick from exploded bike battery to save the planet theories.

 

[irie]

E (!] -Mountainbike forum!

Amazing how a thread can go that quick from exploded bike battery to save the planet theories.

How this occurred is completely unexplainable. Maybe.

 

[Mikerb]

Bottom line for us was money. The new Toyota hybrid has saved us between $500-$600 per month. We were both shocked and likely won’t need to add fuel till late January.

Two more EV’s were added to our street this month. There are 5 Tesla’s and two other hybrid’s. We decided to wait a few years before we committed to an EV.

But power may not be a problem in this area. A new massive hydro dam is going into production next year and two more for the future. A lot of our power is sold to the U.S. imo we have/get too much water here …but what do I know?

Generation is not the problem. It is distribution that is the biggest issue with supply of electricity. National grids were designed on the basis of a small number of high capacity power plants and then a distribution network with transformers. That design now made far more complex having to carry multiple small gen inputs from solar fields and wind farms. Centralised monitoring and control and distribution are the big problems and incur huge costs.

 

[Mikerb]

Yes the bigger picture seems unrelated to our hobby BUT our hobby is currently intrinsically linked to the availability of lithium battery technology at a tenable cost. So I started out thinking what happens for us .......and incidentally many other products using the same technology .......when demand outstrips supply.

The discussion is probably best left there.

 

[Arminius]

The discussion is probably best left there.

Yepp. Let‘s keep going out biking, enjoy nature, respect nature.

 

[ttocs]

I got another smoke detector that I mounted directly above where I store and charge my bike.

 

[jackamo]

Jezzus I'm so bored of the kneejerk reactions to ebike battery fires.

I'll keep it simple.
I've yet to hear of any brand ebike battery catch fire ( please prove me wrong if you actually have proof )
The only ones that catch fire are cheap Chinese imports with a none known brand name.. the same goes for the chargers or bikes that have kits fitted by drug dealer/ phone snatchers / food delivery types.

If you don't know the name , don't buy it .

 

[Tooks]

Yes the bigger picture seems unrelated to our hobby BUT our hobby is currently intrinsically linked to the availability of lithium battery technology at a tenable cost. So I started out thinking what happens for us .......and incidentally many other products using the same technology .......when demand outstrips supply.

The discussion is probably best left there.

Yes, our hobby is linked to the raw material prices of lots of things, along with energy and labour costs.

Lithium battery prices are actually falling despite demand increasing, all sorts of things have gone cordless these days.

Battery price per kwh 2024 | Statista

The cost of lithium-ion batteries per kWh decreased by 14 percent between 2022 and 2023. Lithium-ion battery price was about 139 U.S. dollars per kWh in 2023.

www.statista.com

A typical medium sized EV car has at least the equivalent of 70 700Wh e-bike batteries, and as I mentioned earlier in the thread they can be readily recycled.

An e-bike costs way more than the sum of its parts anyway, so I don’t see it affecting pricing unduly just yet.

 

[Stihldog]

I’m getting emotional just knowing that everyone cares. That fence might need some repairs though.

 

[Colcam]

The bike that caught fire was not a normal eMTB that is manufactured by normal bicycle company. It was some kind of bodged together contraption from sourced parts. Putting engines on bicycles has been a thing since the invention of engines and bicycles, and it hasn't always worked out as the builder expected. Many lives and assets were lost.

Familiar to many of the English folks will be the Petroleum Act of 1879. After the advancements in pumping oil out of the ground, everyone began lighting, heating, and powering with petroleum distillates. Just as it is now with fancy batteries, buildings started blowing up, people began blowing up. Everyone was up in arms. Lawmakers sprung into action, imposing new standards on the storage, transportation, and usage of petroleum products. The chaos soon subsided.

I suspect that even though our top-tier bikes are reasonably safe, our legislators will create regulations that keep the shoddily made junk bikes out of our countries, making lives easier for all of us.

I’m sure these unregulated bikes will eventually affect us all, with home insurance clauses and registration requirements to use any e bike on the road

 

[RustyIron]

Can you ladies take this gammony shite to Pistonheads where it belongs?

Hey, Doctor Grouchkopf! Shut up! We pistonheads don't want them in our forums, either! Maybe Out4S will take them.

Personally, I drive big-arse smog-spewing trucks where the only thing they create more of than CO2 is horsepower. I'm doing my part to warm everything up, so when Putin sparks a Nuclear Winter, everything will balance out. Even if Putin takes a chill pill, the Yellowstone Supervolcano is ready to blow at any minute. Either way, I got you covered.

P.S.
Gammon? I learned a new word today. Too bad I didn't learn this a week ago. At all the holiday parties I could have shut down the woke folks by telling them to keep all their gammony shite to themselves.

 

[RustyMTB]

I would have enjoyed seeing that. Woke gammons is certainly an exciting new & hitherto unheard of concept.

PS, I toned it down earlier. What I really think ios any fool who sprays the word woke around is really saying anything they dislike. I'm yet to hear any bumptious old cracker define it convincingly.

 

[twistgripper]

"The flames were started by an e-bike battery on charge in the home, according to London Fire Brigade (LFB) - who say it shows the dangers of unregulated e-bike sales. LFB confirmed the e-bike was a normal pedal bike that had a lithium-ion battery fitted, which had been purchased online second-hand.
The charger being used was generic and not specific to the battery pack."

I've been watching these ebike fire stories closely, a very high proportion of them are homebuilt bikes cobbled together with little regard to safety, very often just using the blue shrink wrapped battery pack as-is, without any protective case.

 

[Stihldog]

I would have enjoyed seeing that. Woke gammons is certainly an exciting new & hitherto unheard of concept.

PS, I toned it down earlier. What I really think ios any fool who sprays the word woke around is really saying anything they dislike. I'm yet to hear any bumptious old cracker define it convincingly.

“Woke” = anything you don’t agree with.
I’m going “asleep”.

 

[Mad_Angler1]

I've been watching these ebike fire stories closely, a very high proportion of them are homebuilt bikes cobbled together with little regard to safety, very often just using the blue shrink wrapped battery pack as-is, without any protective case.

Charging is where the big risk tends to be. You have to be a bit carfull as even these cased batteries will still burn out.
The biggest risk is cell balancing and incorrect charge voltage. Most of these cheap packs just have 18650 or 21700 cells in series and paralell without ballance circuits between the cells.

All it takes is a cell to start to drift and next minute your overcharging one in the middle of a pack and it's pop.

Most of the batteries I use are in shrinkwrap and it's fine even in a big crash. IV torn open fully charged packs in a crash after take off and they still generally don't go up. Iv put nails though cells when charged and again they just won't go up at times.

The real danger is over charge as they start to gas up, swell and pop.

Hell half the time the actual "charger" they supply don't pass EU standards when you tear them down. No proper isolation between AC and DC sides. Buy anything on Amazon that's got a 12v adapter and you would be shocked how bad even some of that is.

Bikes are the tip of the iceberg but they make great news like Drones and are highlighted.

 

[Polar]

“Woke” = anything you don’t agree with.
I’m going “asleep”.

This thread is going in all directions from emtb, fire, batteries, pollution and woke.
Maybe time for a beer or spliff to cool down.
According to ChatGPT.
"Woke" originally referred to being aware of social injustices and racial inequality. In recent years, it has also been used more broadly to denote a heightened awareness of issues such as gender discrimination, environmental concerns, and other social justice topics. However, the term has become politicized and is often used in cultural or political debates, sometimes pejoratively, to describe progressive or left-leaning ideologies.

Happy new year

 

[Arminius]

Lets re-direct this theme to The Batteries Forum

PS: ChatGPT beomes pest in business live as any idiot tries to use ChatGPT to look smart. What is lasting for a short time only when it comes to longer discussions needing serious background and experience.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think I'm most upset about the word gammon being randomly taken and abused WTF !

Who doesn't love a nice gammon and pineapple or gammon and egg (There, you can argue about that).

 

[Zimmerframe]

“Woke” = anything you don’t agree with.
I’m going “asleep”.

Careful, people will say you went for an ass leap ..

 

[Tooks]

I think I'm most upset about the word gammon being randomly taken and abused WTF !

Who doesn't love a nice gammon and pineapple or gammon and egg (There, you can argue about that).

Mm, fair challenge Zim, gammon and free range (woke) egg for me thanks, but I’ll take the fair trade pineapple if it’s an option!

 

[ari]

Iv had 2 battery problems in the last month, not ebike lithium , but, AA and 12v alarm battery , the AA melted a small fan , and the 12v blew up like a balloon , so its just not ebike batteries , its all batteries .

 

[Arminius]

Sorry to enter delayed into your conversations but as a non native speaker I had to look up some words first to understand what it is about.

If you have probs with calories or cholesterol from all that gammon just go for backgammon instead or do like Stihldog who is so incredible fit to do all this trail building. Yes, because he is often going asleep and doing this Ass Leap Fitness, likely with his Birkis on. I for myself now have a good task for 2025!

 

[E-MAD MALC]

What works against any universal legislation is the fact that lithium batteries are embedded in Govt crass net zero policies. Fortunately for us that will force them to identify the cause of these fires rather than universally condemn lithium battery technology. The biggest danger for our use of these batteries is that there is only a fraction of the mining capacity for the lithium and other rare minerals, worldwide, required to enable the growth of EV car manufacture that Govts are pushing for. The logistics of increasing that capacity will take decades and every aspect from extraction to processing, transportation and manufacture uses fossil fuel . The result is of course massive co2 emissions far greater than any reductions achieved by using EV rather than diesel cars. Yep...its all a nonsense!
Back to our use of lithium batteries......it all means they will become more expensive and eventually unavailable, regardless of minor changes of technology. The future will be some form of liquid fuel which is more abundant and cheaper to transport......e.g. petrol....hehe!

I've always said I being hoodwinked into the battery game as a means for a better world
But as far as the future I'm in the Bezos-Gates camp white hydrogen will it be in my lifetime who knows