Battery Health

[DaiGaled]

Sorry to Necro an old thread, but my 4 week old Levo is showing battery health at 95%. I have the latest firmware update so do you think I need to worry?

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Thought I'd update this threat now its been raised again.
My Levo went in for servicing a couple of months ago.Battery health was still showing 81%. My LBS said that they would check and update the firmware (which I was sure it was up to date anyway). So ..... The bike came back with the Battery health back up to 85%. My LBS said that they ran some diagnostics on the battery, which showed all cells are fine.

 

[DaiGaled]

Thought I'd update this threat now its been raised again.
My Levo went in for servicing a couple of months ago.Battery health was still showing 81%. My LBS said that they would check and update the firmware (which I was sure it was up to date anyway). So ..... The bike came back with the Battery health back up to 85%. My LBS said that they ran some diagnostics on the battery, which showed all cells are fine.

Mine should be ok then. My LBS said to keep an eye on it and if it keeps decreasing at that rate to call back.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Mine should be ok then. My LBS said to keep an eye on it and if it keeps decreasing at that rate to call back.

From new, mine did the same. It sat at 95% for 12months before diving to 81%, hense getting it checked. Friends ones have also had similar characteristics.

 

[MattyB]

A question to the OP... How have you been storing your battery, fully charged or partially discharged? Nothing kills lithum packs quicker than storing them at an elevated SOC (state of charge).

Li ion batteries are wonderful things, but not perfect they have some real limitations and they are very susceptible to performance degradation due to temperature.

Maintaining a good battery life / performance, is all about keeping it in the Goldilocks Zone.

Not too cold and not too hot. Not too flat and not too full.

Too cold, is the least problematic as this will only reduce the amount of charge the cell's will take, no long term degradation and capacity will return with increase in temperature.15 degrees Celsius is considered optimal for both storage and charging.

Too hot is much more of a problem, 30 degrees Celsius is considered to be an elevated temperature and running above this level will degrade the cells considerably faster than normal. So if it's 30 degrees Celsius 'ambient' then your battery will probably be running quite a bit above the ambient as it heats up with use.

Good advice from Taffyteg when it's hot outside, stay away from turbo when ever possible.

Too flat or low State of charge is also really not good and should be avoided as much as possible. if you do run your battery out and it shut's down then do not try and force anymore out of it, YOU MUST GET SOME CHARGE BACK IN ASAP, or you can risk long-term damage very quickly.

To full, or high state of charge is also not good, especially if storing for extended periods, the cells become stressed and this will also degrade the battery faster than normal. If you only ever charged your battery to 95% this could extend it's life quite considerably.

Most of all, avoid storing your battery fully charged, and at elevated temperatures, this double whamy is a real battery killer.

Re calibrating is also bit of a myth and really is not required, Li Ion batteries prefer smaller charges more often and so do not ever need to be drained for any reason.

For best results store your battery at room temperature with a partial charge. Charge the battery fully the night before your ride and make sure you use it as planned, if your ride gets cancelled whiz it around the block a few times and knock of a bar, before returning to storage

Sorry Phil, but I guess, poor battery life, is a price you will have to pay for living in one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

The link's below are well worth a read.

How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

Understanding the life of lithium ion batteries in electric vehicles

An excellent post, but one area I would question slightly...

Whilst factually your statement that "...If you do run your battery out and it shut's down then do not try and force anymore out of it, YOU MUST GET SOME CHARGE BACK IN ASAP, or you can risk long-term damage very quickly." is correct for lithium batteries, it is highly unlikely that the firmware actually lets it discharge to a level that damage is likely. Yes the software may say your pack is fully discharged and cut the assist, but it is almost certain to be well above the critical minimum voltage below which irretrievable damage occurs. Mobile phone firmware charging works exactly the same - they cut off the charging below the max 4.2V/cell achievable, and show it as "flat" well before the critical 3V/cell that kills lipos.

The obvious way to test this would be to discharge the pack to the point it stops providing assistance, then measure the pack voltage with a voltmeter and divide by the number of cells in series. That should give us a decent idea of what the software deems fully discharged in terms of V/cell.

 

[Japuserid]

A question to the OP... How have you been storing your battery, fully charged or partially discharged? othing kills lithum packs quicker than storing them at an elevated SOC (state of charge).

An excellent post, but one area I would question slightly...

Whilst factually your statement that "...If you do run your battery out and it shut's down then do not try and force anymore out of it, YOU MUST GET SOME CHARGE BACK IN ASAP, or you can risk long-term damage very quickly." is correct for lithium batteries, it is highly unlikely that the firmware actually lets it discharge to a level that damage is likely. Yes the software may say your pack is fully discharged and cut the assist, but it is almost certain to be well above the critical minimum voltage below which irretrievable damage occurs. Mobile phone firmware charging works exactly the same - they cut off the charging below the max 4.2V/cell achievable, and show it as "flat" well before the critical 3V/cell that kills lipos.

The obvious way to test this would be to discharge the pack to the point it stops providing assistance, then measure the pack voltage with a voltmeter and divide by the number of cells in series. That should give us a decent idea of what the software deems fully discharged in terms of V/cell.

Hi @MattyB , I am quite sure you are absolutely correct in that the firmware does protect the battery from any damage caused by excessively discharged cells, certainly in the short term, but the point I was trying to make, was that leaving it flat for a length of time thereafter is simply not good practice and at over £500 a pop it has to be a case of, better safe than sorry.

 

[Stumpy]

I’m on my 19th cycle and I’ve just dropped to 95%... (or 477Wh!) - personally I’m not happy about that. Bike going into LBS next week for warranty replacement on the command post and code brakes so they can sort the battery out too while it’s there!

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Right, now my Levo has completely stopped working. Now although I dont think that there is a problem with the Battery, I did notice something a bit strange.....
While having a quick look into my issues, I though it a good starting point would be to send myself a diagnostic report from Mission Control. This is where I am a little perplexed....Mission control states that my Battery health is 85%, which I still consider low for a bike thats only now just hit 40 cycles of the battery......But the report states that battery health is only 81% !!!!! how can there be a discrepency between the two ????

 

[Stumpy]

Right, now my Levo has completely stopped working. Now although I dont think that there is a problem with the Battery, I did notice something a bit strange.....
While having a quick look into my issues, I though it a good starting point would be to send myself a diagnostic report from Mission Control. This is where I am a little perplexed....Mission control states that my Battery health is 85%, which I still consider low for a bike thats only now just hit 40 cycles of the battery......But the report states that battery health is only 81% !!!!! how can there be a discrepency between the two ????

Same.. bike says 95% report says 94% - looking at your other comments in the thread, maybe the new firmware (which I’m on too) rounds up the %? Your bike said 81% until your LBS updated it, then it went to 85% but the report is 81%(still)? - just a thought...

 

[Stumpy]

Right, now my Levo has completely stopped working.

Forgot to ask, what’s wrong?

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Its all a bit strange with the firmware Stumpy, because my LBS said that they updated the firmware when I took it in a while ago for its service and to check the battery, yet I am 99.99% sure it was already on that firmware at that time. Maybe there is some rounding, but one would ask why???when you can run the report and see the true figure.
I dropped the bike to them two days ago and they are still looking into the issue. I rang yesterday for an update and the boss was out for the day, however, one of the mechanics took it for a test ride and said the motor started then cut out completely and would re-start for him, so maybe a sensor, cable or plug....

 

[Doomanic]

Sounds like a job for Berkshire Cycles...

Might be a bit of a trek for you though...

 

[Kiwi Phil]

So I had still not heard from my LBS as to the issues with my levo and what was happening with it, so I decided to contact Specialized directly. I sent them an email late at night hear in New Zealand and had a reply by 9.30am from the local NZ rep. As well as informing them my bike had completely stopped in my email, I asked them to enlighten me on why the decrepancies in the battery health and the warranty on them here in NZ.
The reply was as follows:
Thanks for contacting Specialized New Zealand.

Firstly, could you please let me know what store is currently working on your Levo so I can follow up with them?

There's a couple things we can do to check the health of your battery. Our stores have software to check the cells in your battery to ensure they are balanced and not causing the battery health % to degrade. From new, or when the firmware is updated the battery health is calibrated over the first three full charges and discharges. Depending on how the battery is charged and used at this time can give an inaccurate reading of battery health. Are you able to send through the data that you downloaded from your bike? All our Levo batteries have a warranty of 2 years or that they will be above 75% health after 300 charge cycles.

The plastic covers have been upgraded to a slightly more flexible plastic to reduce the chances of cracking, however the correct torque of the bolts is still important to ensure they are not damaged by over tightening. We have the left side covers in stock now and awaiting a restock of the right hand covers.

I was good to get a quick responce and some clarity over the battery health.
Just wish my LBS was as quick to respond and get back to me!!!!!

 

[MattyB]

I would be very interested to understand how they calculate this battery health figure, and what it really means. Are they just trying to give an idea of usable capacity through a combination of the charge in Ah it accepts plus start and end voltages, or are they measuring pack IR (internal resistance, which defines the ability of the pack to deliver amps under load) too? Either way I would not put a huge standing on this figure, instead looking at real world ride performance you can measure and log over time yourself (say max power delivered on a known climb and cadence, and range calcs after a known ride at controlled pace from full charge on the app). Remember that temperature can also have a significant effect on battery performance too (the lower it is the less the usable capacity).

Ps - I just looked at the Levo instructions online and they are pretty inadequate; if Spec want you to charge and use your battery in a specific way for the first 3 cycles to calibrate the batt health they should explicitly state that, but there is nothing to that effect. Nor is there anything about the damaging effects of storing Li chemistry batteries at elevated SOC, a well understood pack killer that Nissan know all about from their gen 1 Leaf EV. A cynic might suggest they are hoping you will knacker your battery through a poor charging and storage pattern...

 

[Allysnell]

I’m on my 19th cycle and I’ve just dropped to 95%... (or 477Wh!) - personally I’m not happy about that. Bike going into LBS next week for warranty replacement on the command post and code brakes so they can sort the battery out too while it’s there!

What's up with your command post and brakes? Just bought a kenevo so genuinely interested. The rear brake squeaks at one point in its revolution and I needed to know whether that was an issue or if slight misalignment of rotors was a fairly normal thing and if it was a case of letting brakes bed in properly (only done 20 miles) or if it needed to go back and get sorted?

 

[Stumpy]

What's up with your command post and brakes? Just bought a kenevo so genuinely interested. The rear brake squeaks at one point in its revolution and I needed to know whether that was an issue or if slight misalignment of rotors was a fairly normal thing and if it was a case of letting brakes bed in properly (only done 20 miles) or if it needed to go back and get sorted?

Can't help on your brake issue I'm afraid but as far as mine are concerned both my lever pistons are knackered (technical term....) as the lever does not return to its original position after being 'squeezed', at least not as quickly as it should. The command post is creaking (and doing my head in), they've tried various things but nothing has cured it yet. As I said, it goes in next week so I'll let you know..

 

[Eckythump]

Have you guys tried running you batteries from completely full to completely empty two or three times so the BMS can recalibrate?
If you are just running partial charges they can soon get out of whack. You will not hurt the battery doing this as the commercial BMS’s are usually set pretty conservatively (charge cut off 4.1v, discharge cut off 3v or above)

 

[Mcharza]

Have you guys tried running you batteries from completely full to completely empty two or three times so the BMS can recalibrate?
If you are just running partial charges they can soon get out of whack. You will not hurt the battery doing this as the commercial BMS’s are usually set pretty conservatively (charge cut off 4.1v, discharge cut off 3v or above)

Are you sure for that? Because Lithium Ion batteries don't suffer the memory thing

 

[Eckythump]

It’s not the batteries it is the Battery Management System which records the data and then passes it on to the App. It manages the whole charge & discharge process.
If it does not see the base line upper & lower voltages every once in a while it can build up an accumulation of errors.
Using the whole pack lets it recalibrate itself. You may need to do it two or three times.
Just the same recommendation as with mobile phones.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Have you guys tried running you batteries from completely full to completely empty two or three times so the BMS can recalibrate?
If you are just running partial charges they can soon get out of whack. You will not hurt the battery doing this as the commercial BMS’s are usually set pretty conservatively (charge cut off 4.1v, discharge cut off 3v or above)

Trying that now Ecky. Rode 30km home from work last night with 970m climb and flattened the battery on the last climb just before home. Rode the bike aggressively to purposely flatten the battery. The Bike is on charge now and might do the same again tonight, as spring has kicked in here and the last few nights have been perfect.

 

[Creatorex]

I’m on my 19th cycle and I’ve just dropped to 95%... (or 477Wh!) - personally I’m not happy about that. Bike going into LBS next week for warranty replacement on the command post and code brakes so they can sort the battery out too while it’s there!

I'm on the 40 charge and battery is now 92% which means 465wh. I use blevo to get that details about wh in full charge. So I don't know if it's normal or not. What I noted is that level is stabilized. I'm not agree with people saying the right thing is not to charge full. That's simply not truth. I own DJI drones which have implemented battery care and what's not good is to keep it 100% for a long period. But not charging to 100% or leave it in low levels for a long time it's what take batteries in a bad state. So for me best is to recharge at full and if you're going to leave battery without use for a long time (+30days) discharge it from 100% to a 60-70% and charge again in a maximum of 30-45days. By the way battery BMS should have implemented an automatic discharge as my drones and owners take care of charging them every 45-60 days max

 

[markmillen]

I’m on my 19th cycle and I’ve just dropped to 95%... (or 477Wh!) - personally I’m not happy about that. Bike going into LBS next week for warranty replacement on the command post and code brakes so they can sort the battery out too while it’s there!

hi I've just got my new leve comp 2018 carbon , within the first 20 metres in forest my command seat post keeps dropping I've top up air pressure but stalwarts to drop ,did u have the same problem cheers

 

[Creatorex]

hi I've just got my new leve comp 2018 carbon , within the first 20 metres in forest my command seat post keeps dropping I've top up air pressure but stalwarts to drop ,did u have the same problem cheers

Just loose the cable a bit. Use the regulator close to the control.

 

[MattyB]

I'm on the 40 charge and battery is now 92% which means 465wh. I use blevo to get that details about wh in full charge. So I don't know if it's normal or not. What I noted is that level is stabilized. I'm not agree with people saying the right thing is not to charge full. That's simply not truth. I own DJI drones which have implemented battery care and what's not good is to keep it 100% for a long period. But not charging to 100% or leave it in low levels for a long time it's what take batteries in a bad state. So for me best is to recharge at full and if you're going to leave battery without use for a long time (+30days) discharge it from 100% to a 60-70% and charge again in a maximum of 30-45days. By the way battery BMS should have implemented an automatic discharge as my drones and owners take care of charging them every 45-60 days max

Here is an excellent source that shows why storing lithium pack for long periods at elevated SOC is a bad thing, and that charging to lower peak voltages (as they do in almost all small consumer electronic devices like phones and tablets) increases cycle life. It also explains that self discharge of lithium packs is exceptionally low, so storing at 30-50% capacity is extremely safe and will prolong the life of your battery.

How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

If you disagree that is up to you, but please at least provide some sources that back up your claims with actual science. I wouldn’t rely too much on DJI for your info though - they have made a packet out of repackaging cheap lipos in proprietary plastic and connectors to keep you locked in to their ecosystem, so managing the health of your batteries effectively is not in their commercial interest.

 

[Creatorex]

Here is an excellent source that shows why storing lithium pack for long periods at elevated SOC is a bad thing, and that charging to lower peak voltages (as they do in almost all small consumer electronic devices like phones and tablets) increases cycle life. It also explains that self discharge of lithium packs is exceptionally low, so storing at 30-50% capacity is extremely safe and will prolong the life of your battery.

How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

If you disagree that is up to you, but please at least provide some sources that back up your claims with actual science. I wouldn’t rely too much on DJI for your info though - they have made a packet out of repackaging cheap lipos in proprietary plastic and connectors to keep you locked in to their ecosystem, so managing the health of your batteries effectively is not in their commercial interest.

I think you didn't read me well. I said that for long periods you should discharge at medium levels. But previously you have to charge it all. I know how to take care of lithium packs as per I have lots of them in pretty good health. Of course BMS is key.

 

[rodoid]

Hi there,

Same issue here... 7 full charges and only 86% battery health (432Wh) on my 2018 Levo... Will bring the bike to the store on saturday and will let you know what they find...

A little bit concerned about that...

 

[Kiwi Phil]

An update on mine. I've done multiple discharges to 0% and battery health has not changed. Still sitting on 85% on the app and 81% on the report

 

[Eckythump]

Sorry to hear that. Is it still dropping or has it levelled out?

 

[pgtips]

An update on mine. I've done multiple discharges to 0% and battery health has not changed. Still sitting on 85% on the app and 81% on the report

Just a matter of interest and I do apologize in advance if you already tried it, but have you tried to delete the MC app and reinstall it? There might be a bug in the app ad it showing the incorect health.
I had this with mine, 2 charges old battery and only 40km covered on the bike it was showing 93% health on my battery. Deleted the app and reinstalled and now is showing the full 100% health on my battery.
Worth a try?

 

[Creatorex]

Hi there,

Same issue here... 7 full charges and only 86% battery health (432Wh) on my 2018 Levo... Will bring the bike to the store on saturday and will let you know what they find...

A little bit concerned about that...

View attachment 6451

Not normal at all, use blevo to double-check.