Battery Capacity

[Sidepod]

As I hinted at earlier, internal combustion ain’t so bad after all

 

[Sidepod]

Seriously though, why are we riding eebs? Is it because they're electric or because they help us up the hills? The latter I suspect.
We can ride a powered bicycle on public roads, limited to 15mph as long as it uses electricity. This thread is slowly proving the product we're all buying doesn't really tick enough boxes, at the moment. So, why can't we have an IC powered, speed limited bike. It would solve all of the issues discussed here. Just puttin it out there.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Because they're noisy and horrible ??


I think most emtb's tick most people's boxes, but as with anything in life, we wAnT mOrE MORE MORE MORE We want more power, we want more range we want less weight .... we don't necessarily need them though. There's plenty of people seem to complain on there that their 630wh battery is too big and why don't they make a 300wh version ..

Everyone WANTS a more powerful motor .. and then half the planet rushes off to buy a Levo SL, Orbea Rise, Fazua xyz.

Everyones WANTS a lighter bike, then sells their 22kg 2019 bike to buy a 25kg 2021 bike.

I for one am glad the trails aren't full of mopeds.

 

[Sidepod]

Well using silly internet muppet stuff isn’t really fair. An IC motor could easily be made clean and quiet.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Well using silly internet muppet stuff isn’t really fair.

Muppet stuff is the best

Yes, I'm sure you could make something cleaner and quieter. But it's not going to be silent, or even noisy motor quiet. If you went 4 stroke it's going to be heavier and more complex. Yes, range would have the potential to be considerably more. Maybe a tiny rotary just for the hell of it?

I absolutely detest all my petrol power tools and will always use the battery version whenever possible .. There are exceptions when it's not realistic I'll admit and sometimes you have to admit defeat :

Over the last 20 years, despite an abundance of tiny IC engines, how many IC MTB's have we seen ? .. It's not impossible, but I don't think it's really what people want ?

 

[Beekeeper]

Seriously though, why are we riding eebs? Is it because they're electric or because they help us up the hills? The latter I suspect.
We can ride a powered bicycle on public roads, limited to 15mph as long as it uses electricity. This thread is slowly proving the product we're all buying doesn't really tick enough boxes, at the moment. So, why can't we have an IC powered, speed limited bike. It would solve all of the issues discussed here. Just puttin it out there.

I think it’s because we pedal them and they feel like a normal bike yet we perform like superman on steroids ??

 

[Beekeeper]

Muppet stuff is the best

Yes, I'm sure you could make something cleaner and quieter. But it's not going to be silent, or even noisy motor quiet. If you went 4 stroke it's going to be heavier and more complex. Yes, range would have the potential to be considerably more. Maybe a tiny rotary just for the hell of it?

I absolutely detest all my petrol power tools and will always use the battery version whenever possible .. There are exceptions when it's not realistic I'll admit and sometimes you have to admit defeat :

View attachment 54238

Over the last 20 years, despite an abundance of tiny IC engines, how many IC MTB's have we seen ? .. It's not impossible, but I don't think it's really what people want ?

the problem with IC MTBs is that they would be phased out in a few years due to government regulation.

Then we will have no alternative but to buy an e-bike which will use lithium ion batteries and have a range of about 30-50 miles.

I really can’t see these e-bike contraptions catching on. There are not enough charging points around the place yet

 

[Beekeeper]

I really think the Bosch powerpack looks like something from the late 70s or early 80s
It reminds me of those early mobile phones. Even the carry handle looks like a silly antenna.

In years to come humans will look back in disbelief and ask did people actually pedal around with a giant brick tied to their down tube and another one in their rucksack??

And when it got a bit nippy you had to store them indoors and put a woolly hat on them to go outside or suffer a 30% reduction in range?

and you actually had to keep them between 40 and 60% charge at all times to prevent their insides from eating themselves?

and if a ray of sunshine glanced upon them for a second they would explode into a ball of flames ?

and you had to wear a spine protector to carry a spare one?

what? If you turned up at an airport with one they would confiscate it and send you to jail?

please tell me you could make phone calls on them at least?

 

[DtEW]

Seriously though, why are we riding eebs? Is it because they're electric or because they help us up the hills? The latter I suspect.
We can ride a powered bicycle on public roads, limited to 15mph as long as it uses electricity. This thread is slowly proving the product we're all buying doesn't really tick enough boxes, at the moment. So, why can't we have an IC powered, speed limited bike. It would solve all of the issues discussed here. Just puttin it out there.

If I had to deal with the noise/tactile/fumes/ response/maintenance/legal-constraints that goes with the IC engine, I would not be on a bike to seek bike-like experiences. I'd be on a 250cc Kawasaki, where the heightened sensations that comes from much more power and capability might offset some of the IC engines' undesirable qualities.

But I'm not, even though this option obviously exists. And I sure wouldn't be when somebody combines the worst of both worlds with a tiny-IC-equipped bike (is "moped" applicable?) I'd much rather then be on a nonelectric bike if e-bikes weren't an option for whatever reason. Power and range are nice things to have supplemented... but not at the expense of having to deal with an IC engine, if it is at all possible to avoid one. I'd just have shorter rides.

 

[TrailwattsUK]

Like the Focus Jam2 (Shimano motor) 378wh internal battery, just a shame they made a pigs ear of the TEC battery, I'm hoping @TrailwattsUK will soon be releasing a smaller range extender for the Focus ?

Yes I am waiting for cell costs as Samsung are reported to have increased cell prices by up to 50%.

 

[stiv674]

Yes I am waiting for cell costs as Samsung are reported to have increased cell prices by up to 50%.

Just get some cheap Ultrafire ones off eBay

 

[Sidepod]

On the subject of light/low power eebs, if you want a giggle, check out the £ of the new Trek e-Caliber. E13k. WTAF?

 

[Bobj183]

On the subject of light/low power eebs, if you want a giggle, check out the £ of the new Trek e-Caliber. E13k. WTAF?

That's exactly what what I need but buying a high spec version would probably mean getting a divorce first'

 

[grimmprincess]

So, why can't we have an IC powered, speed limited bike. It would solve all of the issues discussed here. Just puttin it out there.

"I want a good e-Bike.....not a bad motorcycle."

Not my quote but I agree.

 

[Hamina]

The 625wh battery weighs over 4kg

Wrong. The Bosch Powertube weights 3.5kg. The eBike battery: long range, low weight, easy to charge

I'm wondering if, like on some super light ebikes, there is a place in the market for a battery option of say 350wh which would weigh in at somewhere under 2kg?

I've been reading a bit about the potential for a very high energy density aluminium battery. I understand that finding the right electrolyte and anode material is the problem to be solved but potentially an Al battery could have three times the energy density of an Li battery. Al is also one of the most common elements on Earth and much cheaper than Lithium.

If we look back to history we kind of had the lighter batteries with less capacity. The battery technology is not ebike dependent so the same rules apply than "anything" else that uses batteries. Would be really really supricing if the ebike's would be the first to implement some really cutting edge battery technology. Aluminium battery articles have been in the internet last 10 years so maybe there's some reasons why don't we have them yet. Is Tesla or Makita using them?

I didn't start this thread to imply that heavier bikes waste power. It was more to do with the fact that I'm probably toting round two kilos of battery that I don't need. From reading other threads I obviously use my legs a lot more than some so two kilos is really significant. For me weight is also about how the bike responds when you're pushing it round a bit of technical single track.

You could offer a trade to someone for changing your 625wh battery to 500wh battery but that would be really bad move. Your requirement is highly independent and 90% buyers would not want a bike that's capacity has been lowered - especially a Trek Powerfly.

I think you might want to re-evaluate if you have correct bike that meets your updated requirements. Maybe look for Levo SL if the bikes electric system's weight is an issue.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Aluminium battery articles have been in the internet last 10 years so maybe there's some reasons why don't we have them yet. Is Tesla or Makita using them?

Tesla seems to be moving more to Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) for the moment, mainly due to cost and sustainabiity (easier/cheaper/more ecological) as developments have pretty much equalled them out for the moment. Energy density is almost the same and less reliance on Cobalt.

 

[Sidepod]

Quite a simple solution is multiple batteries in one frame tube, just like a torch. Use some sort dummy spacer to fill up the space when using only one (light weight) cell.
All we need is a motor capable of running on different voltages (batteries in series etc)

This solution keeps weight down when not required and keeps the stylists/marketroids happy.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Quite a simple solution is multiple batteries in one frame tube, just like a torch. Use some sort dummy spacer to fill up the space when using only one (light weight) cell.

Many bikes with the Bosch Gen4 setup are configured like this. Plastic spacer with the 500wh battery, or without with the 630wh battery.

 

[Hamina]

Quite a simple solution is multiple batteries in one frame tube, just like a torch. Use some sort dummy spacer to fill up the space when using only one (light weight) cell.
All we need is a motor capable of running on different voltages (batteries in series etc)

This solution keeps weight down when not required and keeps the stylists/marketroids happy.

Technically yes but it's kind of really hard to see what could be the use case that I would personally somehow adjust the amount of batteries.

I recognise that I'm not a pro to adjust my bikes suspension - how could I make the decision on the batteries? Suspension plays (my opionion) much bigger role in overall performance.

 

[Hamina]

Many bikes with the Bosch Gen4 setup are configured like this. Plastic spacer with the 500wh battery, or without with the 630wh battery.

My Rail 5 came initially with wrong 500wh battery. Got it changed to correct 625wh battery. Only difference that I noticed was the amount of range in Purion.

 

[Bobj183]

The Bosch 625wh Power Tube from my bike weighs 4.024Kg.........I just weighed it on a very accurate digital scale. I understand that there are lighter bikes with lower powered batteries around but they are outside of my budget mainly so I was simply posing the question - is there a place in the market for for a battery option that would save a bit of weight and hopefully a bit of money. Option being the operative word. I don't want a swap for a 500wh battery that gives none of the advantages I proposed. I wasn't suggesting that Al batteries were just around the corner for ebikes. It's just another battery related point that I thought might be interesting. If Al batteries do become the next big thing in batteries it will probably be Tesla or Panasonic that crack it. You seem to be determined to misunderstand or take exception to everything I've written Hamina...that's a shame.

 

[Hamina]

is there a place in the market for for a battery option that would save a bit of weight and hopefully a bit of money.

My assumptation is that: Seems not to be as bike companies are not producing such bikes. They are not so stupid that they would produce bikes that don't sell. Sometimes you have to think that the requirement you propose is ok for a marginal group.

Meanwhile at Trek HQ: Hold my beer.... e-caliber...

 

[flash]

Technically yes but it's kind of really hard to see what could be the use case that I would personally somehow adjust the amount of batteries.

I recognise that I'm not a pro to adjust my bikes suspension - how could I make the decision on the batteries? Suspension plays (my opionion) much bigger role in overall performance.

Well for a start if the batteries were 99wH each you could carry a bunch of them in your hand luggage....

Gordon

 

[Hamina]

Well for a start if the batteries were 99wH each you could carry a bunch of them in your hand luggage....

Gordon

That's a great idea. I already have a hand luggage that matches my skirt.

Not sure if joking or not, but I think with that idea you kind of lose the advantage of weight saving.

 

[Bobj183]

My assumptation is that: Seems not to be as bike companies are not producing such bikes. They are not so stupid that they would produce bikes that don't sell. Sometimes you have to think that the requirement you propose is ok for a marginal group.

Mean while at Trek HQ: Hold my beer.... e-caliber...

You've still not got mate. The point was about an alternative; an option. So that when you order your bike you could say "I like everything about that bike, could I have the 350Wh version @ £4,400 quid instead of the 625Wh version @ £4.600" for instance. Just like buying an 1100cc car instead of the 1600cc version. Clear?

 

[Zimmerframe]

My assumptation is that: Seems not to be as bike companies are not producing such bikes. They are not so stupid that they would produce bikes that don't sell. Sometimes you have to think that the requirement you propose is ok for a marginal group.

I don't think you can completely discount the option. There are people who are interested and bikes which are starting to fall into the bracket.

Levo Sl with 320wh internal, optional 160wh bottle mount range extenders, or just run without the internal battery and use the extenders.

Orbea Rise. Full fat motor, reduced sized battery, optional extender battery.

Forestal Syrion. 60nm motor. 350wh internal battery, optional 350wh bottle mount extender battery.

Or even back in time, Focus - e8000, smaller lighter internal battery optional external (ugly) tec pack.

 

[Hamina]

You've still not got mate. The point was about an alternative; an option. So that when you order your bike you could say "I like everything about that bike, could I have the 350Wh version @ £4,400 quid instead of the 625Wh version @ £4.600" for instance. Just like buying an 1100cc car instead of the 1600cc version. Clear?

You can/could buy the Trek Rail 5 with 500wh or 625wh battery. I bought and paid for the 625wh version and got the 500wh. Later on changed the batteries in the battery frame and send the 500wh back to shop. Didn't notice any difference.

I just can't see point why these normal heavy longtravel full suspension bikes would ever be sold with low capacity battery. It's totally a different bike. 350wh Rail would be no seller I would think(?).

The Levo SL solves the problem you are defining here.

 

[stiv674]

Focus still do a Shimano EP8 powered bike with small (378wh) internal battery, shame there's only one option though, although it does come with the fugly tec pack as standard now.

 

[stiv674]

The problem with the latest 625wh bikes is that, for me anyway, it still won't be enough for a lot of my rides, I'd need to carry a heavy spare battery.

That's why I haven't changed my bike yet, I want more 20kg full power bikes with a small internal battery and lightweight range extenders for longer rides. Think I'm in a very small minority though.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Focus still do a Shimano EP8 powered bike with small (378wh) internal battery, shame there's only one option though, although it does come with the fugly tec pack as standard now.

That ruins the old adage of "They're so ugly, they can't even give them away" - Is seems they can !