Batteries, Is it realy worth being sexy. (Powerpack vs Powertube)

[Akiwi]

Hi Guys, I have a 2018 Cube Stereo Race 160 with the external Bosch Powerpack battery.
I live and work in Germany, 50% of the time, and the other 50% I am in Basel Switzerland. As I don't always drive, I can't always take my bike with me, so I am considering getting myself a second E-Bike for there for both commuting, and evening rides after work.
So heres my problem. I love the look of the integrated powertube batteries, Particularly in the new Cube range of bikes. However, they are Heavier, more expensive, and incompatible with my current bike. I am looking at doing a trans-alp later this year, and I think if I want to take a second battery with me, a compact Powerpack will fit better in the bottom of my backpack than a powertube.
The disadvantage with buying a bike with powerpack, is I think it might be more difficult to sell if I need to in the future, as the powertube seems to be the new standard.
I'd be interested in your opinions of what you would do in my situation.

 

[SquireRides]

I'm all for external - or semi integrated - packs. I find them far more practical. I can easily take them off as a security measure; I can easily take them in to a coffee shop to charge during a day ride; I can easily swap them between the 3 Bosch powered bikes our family uses.

 

[dirt huffer]

Whose to say what the next generation of ebikes will be like for each brand. Even if a brand has an integrated battery, it doesn't mean they'll keep the same shape in future designs. I've just accepted that my eBike will be worth 30-50% of what I paid for it within 3 years. Maybe it will be worth more, but im setting myself up so as not to be disappointed. Ride it till the wheels fall off

 

[SquireRides]

Bosch has maintained the external pack shape/connectors for a few years now and applied it across a lot of different segments, for 300, 400 and 500 Wh capacities. I'd hope the internal pack remains a standard for some time.

I feel more optimistic that the external mount might support any future 600/700Wh packs they might release.

 

[TheBikePilot]

I think opinions on this are almost 50/50. I prefer an integrated option. The Specialized system on the 2018/2017 Levo is a good compromise to me.

 

[R120]

The key for me is that if they integrate it, is it still early removable, and does the reinforcing of the frame to integrate it add weight?

If the new Merida has an integrated battery, but is heavier than the existing, then that's a backwards step.

Also, will the battery be a Shimano item or a bespoke battery? Part of the appeal to me of the current external batteries is that I have 2 of them, but I could go and buy a Commencal, Ghost, Canyon etc and the batteries would still work on it.

I dont want to see a move into a marketplace where not only are there several brands of motors, but within in that all sorts of types of batteries.

 

[Al Boneta]

I prefer the look of integrated batteries, but external allows you to carry a spare battery easily and quickly swap it out on the trail.

 

[flash]

I think the internal batteries do look better some of the time. I'm totally enamoured with the Norco VLTs. But practically I know, for me, my Merida and it's external battery is a better choice. I have two bikes and can have a spare battery in the car no matter which I ride. If I have a battery failure I simply swap for the good one. And maybe, just maybe, Shimano will answer my wishes and make me a 700WH version that I can simply click in to my existing bike.

Gordon

 

[ULEWZ]

In the states, best to get an integrated battery to keep the haters guessing. Plus they look tons better, win win.

 

[Akiwi]

The key for me is that if they integrate it, is it still early removable, and does the reinforcing of the frame to integrate it add weight?

If the new Merida has an integrated battery, but is heavier than the existing, then that's a backwards step.

Also, will the battery be a Shimano item or a bespoke battery? Part of the appeal to me of the current external batteries is that I have 2 of them, but I could go and buy a Commencal, Ghost, Canyon etc and the batteries would still work on it.

I dont want to see a move into a marketplace where not only are there several brands of motors, but within in that all sorts of types of batteries.

That's the direction Bosh has gone. But because of the Asthetics, I can see why they have done it. I only find it strange that with the power tubes they have a seperate version for Horrizontal and one for Vertical orientated batteries. Means it makes it harder to share batteries between bikes or even to get rental batteries when you travel.

 

[Akiwi]

My first EMtb was the Focus Jan2 with integrated battery. I still think it is one of the sexiest looking eMtby out there. However it was a pain in the bum for charging. Also I didn't have it over winter, however the minus temperatures in my garage wouldn't have been good for the batteries.

 

[Akiwi]

Bosch has maintained the external pack shape/connectors for a few years now and applied it across a lot of different segments, for 300, 400 and 500 Wh capacities. I'd hope the internal pack remains a standard for some time.

I feel more optimistic that the external mount might support any future 600/700Wh packs they might release.

Hmmmmm. The option of a 600 or 700 Wh battery with the external battery is a pretty good argument in favour... On the other hand. If I have 2 bikes, then I already have 2 batteries, so it would take a while before I could justify buying a 3rd one IF they do come out with higher capacity batteries.

 

[knut7]

I wouldn't expect to see a 600Wh battery the same size as existing 500Wh batteries anytime soon. There has been almost no progress in energy density for the last 3 years. If you want a 600Wh+ battery today, you will need 50 battery cells, compared to 40 cells for a 500Wh battery.

 

[outerlimits]

Narh, just make all ebikes look ugly as Fuk. Who wants clean lines and integration, when you can have bulging battery packs and cables n shit everywhere.
I hope Sexy sticks around, and let’s you put it in and pull it out with little fuss.

 

[SquireRides]

I wouldn't expect to see a 600Wh battery the same size as existing 500Wh batteries anytime soon. There has been almost no progress in energy density for the last 3 years. If you want a 600Wh+ battery today, you will need 50 battery cells, compared to 40 cells for a 500Wh battery.

While I appreciate powerpack capacity is complicated, and their size/weight is dictated by the size/weight of the individual industry-standard cells that make them up... The external Bosch mount does provide some wiggle-room in the design because they can always go with a slightly deeper case. The next step would likely be for Bosch to adopt the new Li-Ion cell size (21700), rearrange the internals of the power pack, and then a 600/700Wh drop-in replacement is quite possible.

 

[Tamas]

While I appreciate powerpack capacity is complicated, and their size/weight is dictated by the size/weight of the individual industry-standard cells that make them up... The external Bosch mount does provide some wiggle-room in the design because they can always go with a slightly deeper case. The next step would likely be for Bosch to adopt the new Li-Ion cell size (21700), rearrange the internals of the power pack, and then a 600/700Wh drop-in replacement is quite possible.

Yes, 21700 cells are coming but the question will be the price and their weight. We won't get 40% increase without weight and price penalty and personally, I'm absolutely fine with two 500Wh batteries. I would still need a spare for the long rides even with 700Wh and that would make it even more expensive. The benefit I see in 21700 cells is that they will allow faster charging.
Other than that, I am all for external (or semi-integrated) batteries their practicality is more important for me than the look and couldn't care less if others recognize that I'm riding an ebike...

 

[knut7]

While I appreciate powerpack capacity is complicated, and their size/weight is dictated by the size/weight of the individual industry-standard cells that make them up... The external Bosch mount does provide some wiggle-room in the design because they can always go with a slightly deeper case. The next step would likely be for Bosch to adopt the new Li-Ion cell size (21700), rearrange the internals of the power pack, and then a 600/700Wh drop-in replacement is quite possible.

Yeah, a lot of the bikes with external downtube battery does have room for a bigger case. Probably not all frames or frame sizes though. Going from 40 to 50 cells will take a lot of space.

How about the 21700 cells? Energy density isn't any better here unfortunately. It's still the same chemistry. Specialized appears to use 4800mAh cells in their 700Wh batteries (40*4,8Ah*3,6V=691Wh). Using 30 of the same cells could possibly fit in an existing 500Wh (18650) battery box. Problem is using 30x 21700 cells is just 518Wh.

 

[SquireRides]

Yes, 21700 cells are coming but the question will be the price and their weight. We won't get 40% increase without weight and price penalty and personally, I'm absolutely fine with two 500Wh batteries. I would still need a spare for the long rides even with 700Wh and that would make it even more expensive. The benefit I see in 21700 cells is that they will allow faster charging.
Other than that, I am all for external (or semi-integrated) batteries their practicality is more important for me than the look and couldn't care less if others recognize that I'm riding an ebike...

21700 cells (according to Tesla) gives us 20% more energy density and 9% cheaper ,all due to each cell having more energy-carrying-magic for not much more packaging and components. OK, you then have to pack then in to a plastic shell etc etc. But 600 Wh should be easily achievable. 700 Wh possible if you accept a larger power pack.

I get your point though: a slightly smaller, lighter 400 or 500 Wh pack might be more interesting so you can lug a spare instead.

Can we fast forward to 2030 please where I can have a 1000Wh battery that fast charges in 10 minutes...

 

[Tamas]

21700 cells (according to Tesla) gives us 20% more energy density and 9% cheaper ,all due to each cell having more energy-carrying-magic for not much more packaging and components. OK, you then have to pack then in to a plastic shell etc etc. But 600 Wh should be easily achievable. 700 Wh possible if you accept a larger power pack.

I get your point though: a slightly smaller, lighter 400 or 500 Wh pack might be more interesting so you can lug a spare instead.

Can we fast forward to 2030 please where I can have a 1000Wh battery that fast charges in 10 minutes...

Yes, I also read when Tesla was talking about it... see what happens but I assume the 9% won't be given to the customers especially with the smaller batteries. It might make some difference when someone buys a Tesla with a 100kWh pack. We will see...

 

[Kernow]

Sounds like you’ve answered your own question , if you really want to use the bike ie long rides , charge indoors in cold weather , carry spare battery , change between bikes etc there’s no choice. . There’s vanity or practicality . I like the look of lots of bikes , but I want to ride them not look at them

 

[JoshDwnHll]

650wh already available in a 500wh case long live the DwnHllPro