Bafang m510

[VMG Chris]

@VMG Chris has bafang approved to share firmware on the forum?

No not yet, because the first version cutoff when set to12A under 30%

I have a new version which is 10A under 30%, but I haven't completed testing yet.

 

[ficorama]

No not yet, because the first version cutoff when set to12A under 30%

I have a new version which is 10A under 30%, but I haven't completed testing yet.

most of us want firmware 12a below 30%. i think Bafang should approve you to share that FW with us

 

[VMG Chris]

most of us want firmware 12a below 30%. i think Bafang should approve you to share that FW with us

Not much use to you if the battery cuts out

 

[ficorama]

Not much use to you if the battery cuts out

battery cuttoff ?! so don't you need a motor cuttoff below 30% 12A! what benefit from the engine and firmware if we have in the factory version 10A cuttoff below 40%? I can do it 30km through forests and hills. what is the point of a mountain e-mtb engine if I can't drive in the woods and hills? but we have to be careful how many batteries we have so that we don't stay on a hill that we won't be able to pedal because the battery is below 40% and the engine has no power! It does not make sense?

 

[VMG Chris]

battery cuttoff ?! so don't you need a motor cuttoff below 30% 12A! what benefit from the engine and firmware if we have in the factory version 10A cuttoff below 40%? I can do it 30km through forests and hills. what is the point of a mountain e-mtb engine if I can't drive in the woods and hills? but we have to be careful how many batteries we have so that we don't stay on a hill that we won't be able to pedal because the battery is below 40% and the engine has no power! It does not make sense?

When I tested the 12A 30% firmware, When on level 5 climbing a hill, the voltage sag was too much, and it triggered the low voltage cutoff on the BMS.

Which why the next version is 10A below 30%

 

[ficorama]

When I tested the 12A 30% firmware, When on level 5 climbing a hill, the voltage sag was too much, and it triggered the low voltage cutoff on the BMS.

Which why the next version is 10A below 30%

I do not understand! people on the forum have installed firmware that is 10A below 20% and everything works for them! they only have problems with the cuttoff while driving. maybe not a problem in the engine? maybe the problem is in the battery?

 

[VMG Chris]

I do not understand! people on the forum have installed firmware that is 10A below 20% and everything works for them! they only have problems with the cuttoff while driving. maybe not a problem in the engine? maybe the problem is in the battery?

Depends on how much you load the motor and battery. I'm using Bafang batteries, which are high quality LG cells

 

[ficorama]

@VMG Chris you are an authorized dealer and bafang service? how come everyone can install FW which is shared on the forum and I can't? is that known?

 

[ficorama]

When I tested the 12A 30% firmware, When on level 5 climbing a hill, the voltage sag was too much, and it triggered the low voltage cutoff on the BMS.

Which why the next version is 10A below 30%

then that FW is not 12A below 30%! some limits that can not be switched to 5 degrees below 30%.

 

[VMG Chris]

@VMG Chris you are an authorized dealer and bafang service? how come everyone can install FW which is shared on the forum and I can't? is that known?

I don't know why you can't load the firmware. I haven't heard or had any problems loading firmware which I receive from Bafang.

I haven't looked at the firmware from github because I don't if it originated from Bafang, so I don't want to risk causing a problem with the motors that I have.

 

[VMG Chris]

then that FW is not 12A below 30%! some limits that can not be switched to 5 degrees below 30%.

I'm not sure what you're saying here?

I can't have firmware on my bikes, if there is a risk of it shutting down, when the battery is still showing 29%

 

[ficorama]

I don't know why you can't load the firmware. I haven't heard or had any problems loading firmware which I receive from Bafang.

I haven't looked at the firmware from github because I don't if it originated from Bafang, so I don't want to risk causing a problem with the motors that I have.

if I may ask you. ask bafang to share at least some better FW with m510 engine users. thank you

 

[VMG Chris]

I do not understand! people on the forum have installed firmware that is 10A below 20% and everything works for them! they only have problems with the cuttoff while driving. maybe not a problem in the engine? maybe the problem is in the battery?

I would suspect that these batteries are using a BMS that has a lower Low voltage cutoff value. The problem with this is you are damaging your battery when you drain it too low.

 

[ficorama]

I would suspect that these batteries are using a BMS that has a lower Low voltage cutoff value. The problem with this is you are damaging your battery when you drain it too low.

how low voltage? with me below 40% it shows about 45 volts. the battery according to the manufacturer's specifications can be discharged up to 32.5 volts. on bms limited for safety cells to 39 volts. so there is still room to discharge the battery. it is clear to me when the motor is under full load it draws a lot of current and the voltage probably drops to 42v but then let them set the limit to 12A! and not to allow switching to pass 5. below 30% of the battery should be available max pass 3. below 20% pass 2, and below 10% pass 1 and at 5% of the battery should be turned off! shimano e8000 leave discharge up to 5%, Giant syncdrive pro leave discharge up to 2%. so we are not looking for the impossible but only to improve the usability of the battery. as I already wrote, what good is a 20ah battery if I can't do 60-70 km of forest driving with it!

 

[VMG Chris]

how low voltage? with me below 40% it shows about 45 volts. the battery according to the manufacturer's specifications can be discharged up to 32.5 volts. on bms limited for safety cells to 39 volts. so there is still room to discharge the battery. it is clear to me when the motor is under full load it draws a lot of current and the voltage probably drops to 42v but then let them set the limit to 12A! and not to allow switching to pass 5. below 30% of the battery should be available max pass 3. below 20% pass 2, and below 10% pass 1 and at 5% of the battery should be turned off! shimano e8000 leave discharge up to 5%, Giant syncdrive pro leave discharge up to 2%. so we are not looking for the impossible but only to improve the usability of the battery. as I already wrote, what good is a 20ah battery if I can't do 60-70 km of forest driving with it!

But you're limiting power by limiting the power level.

Is it much different to limiting current, but allowing all power levels?

Not recommended, but the battery will still allow you to go down to "0%" as long as you don't trigger the LVC.

 

[ficorama]

But you're limiting power by limiting the power level.

Is it much different to limiting current, but allowing all power levels?

Not recommended, but the battery will still allow you to go down to "0%" as long as you don't trigger the LVC.

and why allow all levels, if below 20% any level we choose the power is the same?

and according to everything you have written, the power is not limited either! when below 30% in level 5 you turn off the battery.

 

[VMG Chris]

and why allow all levels, if below 20% any level we choose the power is the same?

and according to everything you have written, the power is not limited either! when below 30% in level 5 you turn off the battery.

I don't know for sure, but I think limiting current available rather than limiting which power level you can select is the easiest way Bafang can manage the battery.

I think this got lost in translation.

It's not an automatic cutoff below 30% at Level 5, it was because the amount of current(12A) draw when I was climbing caused too much voltage drop and thus triggering the LVC.

Therefore limiting the current available at lower battery levels will help prevent triggering the LVC.

 

[pacotomi]

Hi, I'm following your progress with the M510 motor. I'll tell you what's happening with my M500. I bought a battery when the motor was sent to me and it works very well. Three months ago I bought another 820W battery. It turns out that with this battery the same thing happens to me that happens to you continuous cuts when under the lack of my M500 I don't know if it will have something to do with it, I fly to put the other battery and everything is perfect.

 

[thaeber]

Now its time for the results! I updated my firmware today (Loaded to BESST, and after upload it immediately loaded to motor controller without disconnecting) and did a battery attenuation test starting with 47% SoC. Full power available until 20% SoC, then appr. 400W between 20% and 10%. Below 10% power reduced to 200W. I squeezed an unbelievable lot of capacity out of the battery, and riding was still ok between 20% and 10%. I climbed many loops of steep uphill at Level 5/5 to finally stop at remaining 8% SoC, and the bike was still ok to ride home. I‘m so happy with that custom tailored firmware, meeting my expectations by 100%. Motor worked flawless with no issues.

With my Dengfu 840Wh 13S5P Samsung 35E cell battery its like description above!

 

[thaeber]

With my Dengfu 840Wh 13S5P Samsung 35E cell battery its like description above!

But what does that mean? Could also be, that Chris VMG battery SoC is more accurate, showing 30% at a much lower Voltage as with my configuration. I have to check the Voltage levels again, but I remember that I saw appr. 44V at 30%.

 

[ficorama]

one small help to all. it works for me i've tried it a couple of times. when you start the engine you need to turn the pedals in a high cadence of about 15-20 meters. in pass1 and on cassettes at 2 or 3 speeds. you need to pedal constantly for 15 meters and you can hear the engine running, flat or light uphill. downhill has no effect and neither uphill. the other day i tried a couple of times before, lightly start the engine just enough to start, and i had constant cuttoff. today i made the start as i described and all great without the cuttoff. you can brake lightly to have a constant rotation of those 15-20 meters. It works for me, I hope it will work for you.

 

[temon10]

one small help to all. it works for me i've tried it a couple of times. when you start the engine you need to turn the pedals in a high cadence of about 15-20 meters. in pass1 and on cassettes at 2 or 3 speeds. you need to pedal constantly for 15 meters and you can hear the engine running, flat or light uphill. downhill has no effect and neither uphill. the other day i tried a couple of times before, lightly start the engine just enough to start, and i had constant cuttoff. today i made the start as i described and all great without the cuttoff. you can brake lightly to have a constant rotation of those 15-20 meters. It works for me, I hope it will work for you.

i'll try this tips, hope it works

 

[temon10]

one small help to all. it works for me i've tried it a couple of times. when you start the engine you need to turn the pedals in a high cadence of about 15-20 meters. in pass1 and on cassettes at 2 or 3 speeds. you need to pedal constantly for 15 meters and you can hear the engine running, flat or light uphill. downhill has no effect and neither uphill. the other day i tried a couple of times before, lightly start the engine just enough to start, and i had constant cuttoff. today i made the start as i described and all great without the cuttoff. you can brake lightly to have a constant rotation of those 15-20 meters. It works for me, I hope it will work for you.

Sadly it's not working for me just now

 

[Waynemarlow]

You guys seem to be getting weird torque sensor readings and yet at rest the BEEST tool is showing otherwise. From the TSDZ2 project, on first turn on the motor goes through a self calibration process, it is vital you do not have any weight on the pedals as the motor will read the weight on the pedals and adjust the torque curve mapping accordingly. Many riders report almost no torque sensing or off and on sensing and the general question is did you have your foot on one of the pedals when you turned the motor on. Usually the answer was yes.

Has the 510 motor the same self calibration routine on start up ? Perhaps those having problems could try to keep both feet off the pedals, turn the motor on for say 30 seconds and then start riding. On the hacked freeware for the TSDZ2 motor, the developers actually put on the screen that calibration is taking place just to remind riders.

VMG Chris is right regarding the battery and early cut off. Batteries do tend to have different fall off rates in the last 30% of voltage. What most motor manufacturers do is err on the safe side to ensure the motor is not blamed for early shut down and the battery manufacturer tells the motor manufacturer is don’t blame the battery if you want to run high Watts in that last 30%. It would seem then we get the worst of all with early lowering of the Watts to keep both manufacturers happy.

You get also the manufacturer of the battery worried of fall off of Whs of capacity in the last 20% of the lifetime design curve where the voltage fall off gets worse. Get a battery pack in that 3000 + charge cycles and you will get reports of the motor shutting down in quite low power situation. To be fair not many of us going to complain if we have charged 3000 times but it is important to the manufacturer.

Talking of batteries you can get into trouble if you constantly only charge to 80% or remove the charger before the pack has a chance to fully balance charge. You can get an early imbalance of the cells which in turn triggers an early shut down. Yes you will get longer battery life but we are heavy power bunnies and you want full equal charge of the cells all of the time, I would sooner have 2500 good full charges than a troubled pack needing to be rebalanced every 500 charges.

 

[thaeber]

You guys seem to be getting weird torque sensor readings and yet at rest the BEEST tool is showing otherwise. From the TSDZ2 project, on first turn on the motor goes through a self calibration process, it is vital you do not have any weight on the pedals as the motor will read the weight on the pedals and adjust the torque curve mapping accordingly. Many riders report almost no torque sensing or off and on sensing and the general question is did you have your foot on one of the pedals when you turned the motor on. Usually the answer was yes.

Has the 510 motor the same self calibration routine on start up ? Perhaps those having problems could try to keep both feet off the pedals, turn the motor on for say 30 seconds and then start riding. On the hacked freeware for the TSDZ2 motor, the developers actually put on the screen that calibration is taking place just to remind riders.

VMG Chris is right regarding the battery and early cut off. Batteries do tend to have different fall off rates in the last 30% of voltage. What most motor manufacturers do is err on the safe side to ensure the motor is not blamed for early shut down and the battery manufacturer tells the motor manufacturer is don’t blame the battery if you want to run high Watts in that last 30%. It would seem then we get the worst of all with early lowering of the Watts to keep both manufacturers happy.

You get also the manufacturer of the battery worried of fall off of Whs of capacity in the last 20% of the lifetime design curve where the voltage fall off gets worse. Get a battery pack in that 3000 + charge cycles and you will get reports of the motor shutting down in quite low power situation. To be fair not many of us going to complain if we have charged 3000 times but it is important to the manufacturer.

Talking of batteries you can get into trouble if you constantly only charge to 80% or remove the charger before the pack has a chance to fully balance charge. You can get an early imbalance of the cells which in turn triggers an early shut down. Yes you will get longer battery life but we are heavy power bunnies and you want full equal charge of the cells all of the time, I would sooner have 2500 good full charges than a troubled pack needing to be rebalanced every 500 charges.

Great explanation, again! Thanks!

 

[temon10]

You guys seem to be getting weird torque sensor readings and yet at rest the BEEST tool is showing otherwise. From the TSDZ2 project, on first turn on the motor goes through a self calibration process, it is vital you do not have any weight on the pedals as the motor will read the weight on the pedals and adjust the torque curve mapping accordingly. Many riders report almost no torque sensing or off and on sensing and the general question is did you have your foot on one of the pedals when you turned the motor on. Usually the answer was yes.

Has the 510 motor the same self calibration routine on start up ? Perhaps those having problems could try to keep both feet off the pedals, turn the motor on for say 30 seconds and then start riding. On the hacked freeware for the TSDZ2 motor, the developers actually put on the screen that calibration is taking place just to remind riders.

VMG Chris is right regarding the battery and early cut off. Batteries do tend to have different fall off rates in the last 30% of voltage. What most motor manufacturers do is err on the safe side to ensure the motor is not blamed for early shut down and the battery manufacturer tells the motor manufacturer is don’t blame the battery if you want to run high Watts in that last 30%. It would seem then we get the worst of all with early lowering of the Watts to keep both manufacturers happy.

You get also the manufacturer of the battery worried of fall off of Whs of capacity in the last 20% of the lifetime design curve where the voltage fall off gets worse. Get a battery pack in that 3000 + charge cycles and you will get reports of the motor shutting down in quite low power situation. To be fair not many of us going to complain if we have charged 3000 times but it is important to the manufacturer.

Talking of batteries you can get into trouble if you constantly only charge to 80% or remove the charger before the pack has a chance to fully balance charge. You can get an early imbalance of the cells which in turn triggers an early shut down. Yes you will get longer battery life but we are heavy power bunnies and you want full equal charge of the cells all of the time, I would sooner have 2500 good full charges than a troubled pack needing to be rebalanced every 500 charges.

I always put away my foot from pedals when turn on motor. And I have M500 and M600 before, so i know the different. M510 have a problem with light power pedaling, it's on off suddenly although on constant pedaling and power. M500 and M600 not happend like that. I dont know this M510 have self torque calibration or not. Now I'm waiting the respond from Bafang through Chili.

 

[temon10]

@VMG Chris your M510 build 48V or 43V ? Maybe this unconsistent power assist on light pedaling only happened with 48V version

 

[VMG Chris]

@VMG Chris your M510 build 48V or 43V ? Maybe this unconsistent power assist on light pedaling only happened with 48V version

48V

 

[SchadowMaster]

@VMG Chris your M510 build 48V or 43V ? Maybe this unconsistent power assist on light pedaling only happened with 48V version

Always 48V

 

[KaroKönig]

The strange behavior of the motor definitely has something to do with switching it on. Today I tried @ficorama version, unfortunately without success. Then I only switched on the motor after starting to ride under load with the result that the motor did not provide any support at all, regardless of the cadence or level.
Then I waited about 1 minute after switching it on and drove off normally and there were no more cut-off‘s. Someone should make sense of it