Bafang m510

[thaeber]

It felt really weird, climbing tough and then loose 1/3 of power supply. But may be I just expect too much. Lets see what future firmware updates will bring. I remember the same issue with my M500 and earlier firmware, and the latest firmware 13A solved the attenuation topic very well. I would like to have it same way, nothing else. The M510 performance is really great and still works flawless with my bike.

 

[Kyokushin]

So in total the 820Wh battery delivered 47km and 1700m of climbing all at Level 5.

It seems similar to be M500 then. I had slightly over 50km on charge in M500 on 13A firmware. My Battery is 840Wh (17.5Ah * 48V)

 

[Waynemarlow]

May be You know more about Volts, Watts and Ampere then I do (because I don’t know much!) and I highly appreciate Your feedback. My understanding is, with a 13S Battery, the pack should have plenty of life left when I measure 46,5 V at 40% SoC? I would expect the Battery BMS cuts off at appr. 42V? Am I wrong?

Gosh thats such a wide topic as to be difficult to explain in less than a 5 minutes.

You are correct but and a bigger but, even though you have 46.5 V at low amps, increase the amps ( Watts ) and the battery volts will sag to a lower value. The more the battery is drained to say the last 30% then that sag becomes a problem as it will trip either the Bafang low volts or the battery BMS itself. Usually the bike switches off, the rider switches it back on and the voltage is say 46.5 volts ( no load ) and the rider says to himself that he has still 40% charge left, why has it cut out ? So the likes of Bafang get around this by limiting the max watts early, the lower watts won't pull the voltage as low and you get to ride for another 40 minutes. The downside to this is you will have to ride slower or put more effort in yourself.

Unfortunately we all use the very common Samsung 35E cell which the manufacturer focused on capacity and not sag value, unfortunately at this stage you can't get both, so at the tail end of charge, this cell voltage will sag dramatically. We built a few packs of 13S2P's and they were not great, the voltage sag was such to trigger the BMS from around 65% of charge ( we were running around 600W's max ). We had previously used the 30Q's which have less capacity but higher discharge rate ( C Rating ) which in the 13S2P gave a better range than the 35E's. We built a few 13S3P's with the 35E's which if used less than about 400W's were fine. In your case at 13S4P I would suspect the 500W's would be pretty comfortable to be OK but once down to say the last 25% you may risk triggering the low volt level hence Bafang indeed are cutting back the Watts early to prevent this.

A lot of systems are now using Coloumb counting together with volts and getting better results, or simply using cells with a better C Rating.

 

[thaeber]

Gosh thats such a wide topic as to be difficult to explain in less than a 5 minutes.

You are correct but and a bigger but, even though you have 46.5 V at low amps, increase the amps ( Watts ) and the battery volts will sag to a lower value. The more the battery is drained to say the last 30% then that sag becomes a problem as it will trip either the Bafang low volts or the battery BMS itself. Usually the bike switches off, the rider switches it back on and the voltage is say 46.5 volts ( no load ) and the rider says to himself that he has still 40% charge left, why has it cut out ? So the likes of Bafang get around this by limiting the max watts early, the lower watts won't pull the voltage as low and you get to ride for another 40 minutes. The downside to this is you will have to ride slower or put more effort in yourself.

Unfortunately we all use the very common Samsung 35E cell which the manufacturer focused on capacity and not sag value, unfortunately at this stage you can't get both, so at the tail end of charge, this cell voltage will sag dramatically. We built a few packs of 13S2P's and they were not great, the voltage sag was such to trigger the BMS from around 65% of charge ( we were running around 600W's max ). We had previously used the 30Q's which have less capacity but higher discharge rate ( C Rating ) which in the 13S2P gave a better range than the 35E's. We built a few 13S3P's with the 35E's which if used less than about 400W's were fine. In your case at 13S4P I would suspect the 500W's would be pretty comfortable to be OK but once down to say the last 25% you may risk triggering the low volt level hence Bafang indeed are cutting back the Watts early to prevent this.

A lot of systems are now using Coloumb counting together with volts and getting better results, or simply using cells with a better C Rating.

Thanks mate for the excellent explanation! Much more clear now!

 

[VMG Chris]

It felt really weird, climbing tough and then loose 1/3 of power supply. But may be I just expect too much. Lets see what future firmware updates will bring. I remember the same issue with my M500 and earlier firmware, and the latest firmware 13A solved the attenuation topic very well. I would like to have it same way, nothing else. The M510 performance is really great and still works flawless with my bike.

At 30% remaining, I barely noticed the drop to 12A

 

[thaeber]

At 30% remaining, I barely noticed the drop to 12A

My firmware seems to drop to appr. 10A at 40%….

 

[VMG Chris]

My firmware seems to drop to appr. 10A at 40%….

Yes, I'm testing the firmware Bafang customised for me last Monday.

 

[Waynemarlow]

If you want to get a bit techie looking in on the discharge curve you can see why we are having the early shut down of amps. We found that the predicted and actual was somewhat less in colder temps, but you get the idea. Note I have used the 7.0 scale as effectively the total amps is spread over the 4 batteries.

 

[Puschtrale]

Type "CR" in the SN field and you'll be able to update firmware.

Worked . I could reinstall the original firmware. Here the picture of the Besst Screen before my update - so this shows information with the new firmware i did not install with success. Thanks a lot for this hint . Now i will wait for the next new firmware to come!

 

[Hagbard]

Excellent news!

 

[thaeber]

Great! Happy this finally works buddy!

 

[KaroKönig]

The cut-off’s seem to have gone with the other magnet and the stainless steel screws. Many thanks to @VMG Chris for the tip But there is still the poor dosing due to the torque sensor My M600 reacts very sensitively to the pedal pressure, the M510 actually not at all.

 

[thaeber]

No M510 firmware update yet. Still waiting for reply. Somehow frustrating, great engine but no chance to unveil the full potential…

 

[VMG Chris]

Bafang have put a lot of effort into making the M510 feel more natural, which is actually a soft ramp up of the power. Perhaps this is the difference with what you are feeling?

The M600 power delivery is quite brutal in comparison, and isn't great for technical single track.

 

[VMG Chris]

I'm waiting on the next version, which will be changing to 10A at 30%.

My last test showed the battery can't sustain 12A under 30% at Level 5

 

[patdam]

Bafang have put a lot of effort into making the M510 feel more natural, which is actually a soft ramp up of the power. Perhaps this is the difference with what you are feeling?

The M600 power delivery is quite brutal in comparison, and isn't great for technical single track.

Not the case of all révisions of firmware. I feel few differences between M500 and M600 on the first levels (those i use only) and it is very well like that for moi.

 

[VMG Chris]

Not the case of all révisions of firmware. I feel few differences between M500 and M600 on the first levels (those i use only) and it is very well like that for moi.

M510 firmware is different to M500

 

[patdam]

M510 firmware is different to M500

i speak about the "brutal" power delivery of the M600

 

[ficorama]

@VMG Chris correct me if I'm wrong. it is futile to compare the m510 engine with the m500 and especially with the m600. it is a completely different engine than the m500, although they have the same power. and with the m600 the comparison doesn’t make sense because it’s a different engine category. my opinion is that the m510 should be compared to competing engines, yamaha-giant, bosch, spec ..... as I have written many times on the forum. m510 in its behavior and sudden starts is very similar to the giant syncdrive pro engine. m510 is a much more natural engine for pedaling and has a small delay in starting the engine, you need to turn the pedals about 1/8 turn to start the engine. the giant doesn't have that idle, it starts at the moment when you put your foot on the pedal, which is not good at all. The m510 is a great engine, some shortcomings will be corrected with new firmware versions. they will be tested by official partners, VMG Chris, Tosa bikes ... and others. I drove long distances shimano e8000 70nm, oli sport 85nm, giant syncdrive pro 80nm, bafang m500,510. The m500 is comparable to the shiman e8000, oli sport. I can compare the m510 with the giant syncdrive pro and with bosch gen4, I tried bosch for a very short time! so in my opinion it makes no sense to go on and on about the m510 versus the m500,600. and do a new firmware upgrade every day. Thanks everyone.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

@VMG Chris correct me if I'm wrong. it is futile to compare the m510 engine with the m500 and especially with the m600. it is a completely different engine than the m500, although they have the same power. and with the m600 the comparison doesn’t make sense because it’s a different engine category. my opinion is that the m510 should be compared to competing engines, yamaha-giant, bosch, spec ..... as I have written many times on the forum. m510 in its behavior and sudden starts is very similar to the giant syncdrive pro engine. m510 is a much more natural engine for pedaling and has a small delay in starting the engine, you need to turn the pedals about 1/8 turn to start the engine. the giant doesn't have that idle, it starts at the moment when you put your foot on the pedal, which is not good at all. The m510 is a great engine, some shortcomings will be corrected with new firmware versions. they will be tested by official partners, VMG Chris, Tosa bikes ... and others. I drove long distances shimano e8000 70nm, oli sport 85nm, giant syncdrive pro 80nm, bafang m500,510. The m500 is comparable to the shiman e8000, oli sport. I can compare the m510 with the giant syncdrive pro and with bosch gen4, I tried bosch for a very short time! so in my opinion it makes no sense to go on and on about the m510 versus the m500,600. and do a new firmware upgrade every day. Thanks everyone.

I think what people want is the ability to program the settings to thier own preferences.

 

[ficorama]

I think what people want is the ability to program the settings to thier own preferences.

allegedly bafang is developing a mobile application through which it will be possible to make settings, "upgrade". for everything else Shimano, Bosch, Giant, Spec ... they have applications through which you can upgrade and adjust.

 

[Dave Rand]

allegedly bafang is developing a mobile application through which it will be possible to make settings, "upgrade". for everything else Shimano, Bosch, Giant, Spec ... they have applications through which you can upgrade and adjust.

They’ve got to do something!!!
Even a Customer login for the Besst Tool would be good, which has certain features blocked but others items like wheel diameter, voltage cutoffs and power modes would be helpful!

 

[KaroKönig]

Bafang have put a lot of effort into making the M510 feel more natural, which is actually a soft ramp up of the power. Perhaps this is the difference with what you are feeling?

The M600 power delivery is quite brutal in comparison, and isn't great for technical single track.

Under "natural" I understand something else. The harder I pedal, the more the motor should support me. And depending on the driving level more or less. And don't provide almost full power with a light pedal pressure.

 

[Dave Rand]

Under "natural" I understand something else. The harder I pedal, the more the motor should support me. And depending on the driving level more or less. And don't provide almost full power with a light pedal pressure.

that’s exactly what the EMTB mode does on the Bosch, a very intuitive system which then does away with tons of different modes!

come Bafang! Step up!

 

[VMG Chris]

Under "natural" I understand something else. The harder I pedal, the more the motor should support me. And depending on the driving level more or less. And don't provide almost full power with a light pedal pressure.

Yes of course that's what the torque sensing is for.

The natural feel also comes from the "softer" startup, so it has less of an on/off feel.

 

[thaeber]

Today @Puschtrale received a new firmware for M510. @Kyokushin posted it on GitHub, You find it in the M510 official software folder. If You test it, please leave a comment here. I can install and test it on Sunday earliest.

 

[Puschtrale]

Today @Puschtrale received a new firmware for M510. @Kyokushin posted it on GitHub, You find it in the M510 official software folder. If You test it, please leave a comment here. I can install and test it on Sunday earliest.

Thanks @thaeber for sending it to @Kyokushin for uploading it ✌. I did intsall the new firmware with success and can only say that for the first minute of riding it worked . Could not ride further so i could not really test it. Chili told me that the battery attenuation protection point is set at 20% now. Maybe someone else can give it a try and letting us know ☺

 

[ficorama]

Thanks @thaeber for sending it to @Kyokushin for uploading it ✌. I did intsall the new firmware with success and can only say that for the first minute of riding it worked . Could not ride further so i could not really test it. Chili told me that the battery attenuation protection point is set at 20% now. Maybe someone else can give it a try and letting us know ☺

Hello everyone. thanks for the firmware. I'll try to install it tomorrow and drive. I report the results. @Puschtrale what problems do you have that you can't test?

 

[ficorama]

I tried to upgrade the engine, it didn't work. loads in besst and writes to disconnect the controller and reconnect. I do it but nothing. any advice?

 

[thaeber]

I tried to upgrade the engine, it didn't work. loads in besst and writes to disconnect the controller and reconnect. I do it but nothing. any advice?

Contact @Puschtrale