Any answers at Spesh day about motor and moisture issues ?

[escrs]

The 1.3 motors have been seen for sale for as low as £399

54 - Workshop - 36v C91143-100 Brose Motor

I suspect the full retail price of the 1.3 and 2.1 would be around £1000

Also you have Performance bearings doing repairs for around £250

 

[Mikerb]

Good info here. I think you can either accept that there are design weaknesses and mitigate them or take the attitude that none of these faults should happen and.....well suffer the consequences. I have commented here before that my emtb experience reminds me of similar unreliability of Gopros over time. I have used Gopros dating right back to the non hd version.....and avidly followed the Gopro forum. Reading that forum you would never buy a Gopro! After seeing all the problems people experienced I gathered together 10 ways to avoid the vast majority of problems. As a result in nearly 10 years of using 5 different models of Gopro I have only ever had 2 faults both of which were fixable. I think the same can be done with the Levo. Just like the Gopro the Levo is a brilliant product and market leader.....a few compromises/hacks/special care requirements are fully worth it. (Imho)

 

[Doomanic]

I think Specialized have learnt quite a lot from Brose and the short comings of their motor hence why they designed the 1.1 SL motor themselves, it has triple seals and the bearings sit a lot further in board

I think Spesh are getting far too much credit for the new motor. They are a bicycle manufacturer, they design bikes. Mahle are an electronics company, they design motors, amongst other things. Spesh may have had a design brief but it will have been fulfilled by Mahle.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think a lot of the "waterproof" mobile phones just have the boards sprayed with a "nano tech" waterproofer. Has anyone tried dismantling their TCU and spraying that and maybe use some similar hydrophobic treatment all round the motor area (with the covers off) to repel water from round the electronics/bearings and so on - yes it won't stop water from a jetwash or immersion, but it would help with day to day water ingress.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think Spesh are getting far too much credit for the new motor. They are a bicycle manufacturer, they design bikes. Mahle are an electronics company, they design motors, amongst other things. Spesh may have had a design brief but it will have been fulfilled by Mahle.

I think most importantly here is that Mahle were Cosworth ? So you can buy an SL which at least now has a Cozzie Turbo engine. That's certainly more impressive than saying you have a brose power steering motor powering your bike.

 

[escrs]

I think Spesh are getting far too much credit for the new motor. They are a bicycle manufacturer, they design bikes. Mahle are an electronics company, they design motors, amongst other things. Spesh may have had a design brief but it will have been fulfilled by Mahle.

Maybe but we were told this motor is a Specialized designed motor with patents to stop anyone copying certain aspects, also it is branded with a big S on the side, i saw no mention of Mahle on any of the motors on display even the cut open ones

I think Mahle took Specialized's main design and made any necessary design tweaks if it was a Mahle motor i couldnt see them being happy bout it being branded by Specialized and having their own patents on the motor

 

[Doomanic]

An exclusive is easy to achieve, even if the manufacturer of the motor did all the work, it's just a financial transaction. The marketing bods do the rest.

I seem to recall Spesh claiming the TCU was theirs and someone found it on sale elsewhere.

 

[miPbiP]

yup, money talks.

 

[miPbiP]

Wikipedia says Mahle have revenue of EUR12.5 billion and 75,000 staff. Spesh is a minnow in comparison.

This project is barely on their radar I bet.

That's actually quite reassuring!

 

[StuR]

I think a lot of the "waterproof" mobile phones just have the boards sprayed with a "nano tech" waterproofer. Has anyone tried dismantling their TCU and spraying that and maybe use some similar hydrophobic treatment all round the motor area (with the covers off) to repel water from round the electronics/bearings and so on - yes it won't stop water from a jetwash or immersion, but it would help with day to day water ingress.

I was thinking along the same lines about some water repellant. I will ask the question in the workshop this week.
Don't mind occasionally doing some more in depth maintenance , not keen on doing it after every ride though

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I see it a bit like consumer electronics. Apple design and engineer the iPhone. Foxconn make it.

Foxconn also make many, many other brands phones and consumer electronics.

Specialized design and engineer (and patent) the motor. Mahle are the manufacturing partner.

Mahle cannot share patented parts and intellectual properties with, say, Trek, and make a motor the same as the SL 1.1 but they could make a Trek designed alternative.

 

[escrs]

So a little investigation and it seems Mahle's battery and extender along with the charging port are very similar to the ones on the SL bikes

MAHLE ebikemotion® – The e-bike platform for OEMs

At the bottom of the webpage is a list of manufactures they work with, Ribble, Rocky Mountian, Bianchi, Orbea, Pinerrello Cannondale, Colnago but no mention of Specialized

 

[Doomanic]

Any idea how many people are in the design team for the motor?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Any idea how many people are in the design team for the motor?

Approx 40 in Switzerland. Not sure how many on the motor but I bet it’s a fair chunk.

 

[Wheelie_King]

So if Brose/Specialized aren't used to UK weather and rider habits that's kinda their problem. If the external ports on the motor are where moisture enters, and none of us use these ports, there must be a recommended simple way of sealing them up? Silicone sealant?

 

[Zimmerframe]

So if Brose/Specialized aren't used to UK weather and rider habits that's kinda their problem. If the external ports on the motor are where moisture enters, and none of us use these ports, there must be a recommended simple way of sealing them up? Silicone sealant?

@Gary s wallet. NOTHING gets in or out. Rumour has it that you can put a watch in there and even time can't penetrate it.

 

[miPbiP]

So a little investigation and it seems Mahle's battery and extender along with the charging port are very similar to the ones on the SL bikes

MAHLE ebikemotion® – The e-bike platform for OEMs

At the bottom of the webpage is a list of manufactures they work with, Ribble, Rocky Mountian, Bianchi, Orbea, Pinerrello Cannondale, Colnago but no mention of Specialized

good work.

I doubt Spesh "designed" the motor, perhaps they specced it.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

The 1.3 motors have been seen for sale for as low as £399

54 - Workshop - 36v C91143-100 Brose Motor

I suspect the full retail price of the 1.3 and 2.1 would be around £1000

Also you have Performance bearings doing repairs for around £250

Not sure where you saw £399 for a 1.3 but the link you have posted is definitely for a 1.2 motor.
Anything starting with C911 is a 1.2. The 1.3 motors all start with C972.

In 2018 I paid for a brand new ‘Assisted Replacement’ 1.2 motor from Rutland cycles via Specialized for £449. For someone ‘out of warranty‘ with no choice I think that was an okayish price to pay bearing in mind I had no other options as the bike would have been unusable in the state it was in...... so it was pay up or an unridable ebike

The cheapest 1.3 engine I have had a quote for from a lbs was over £600 and that was with 10% off.

I had a call with Specialized rider care just over a week ago to discuss out of warranty 2.1 motors and they quoted £899 for the ‘Assisted Replacement’ 2.1 motor but he did say that there was a reducing discount scale of up to 35% depending on how old the bike was. So if you were just out of warranty you are looking at around the £600 mark plus fitting.

 

[Doomanic]

Are Spesh offering rolling warranties like Bosch?

 

[Zimmerframe]

No.

But then it's Bosch which is offering the rolling warranty - not the company using their systems.

I guess Bosch are far more invested in creating a whole "system" and have invested heavily in development, whereas Brose have more jumped on the bandwagon and said what can we re-purpose for not much expenditure and development and churn out OEM motors for about £200 production cost.

Historically, automotive suppliers (and their users) like to supply crap electrical parts which fail (ideally just outside of warranty) so they can sell you exactly the same crap fault part for 10* it's real cost at massive profit ad infinitum.

Ironically, they came up with something which is simple but on the whole actually works really well. (for most people) Ironic in that it works so well from using off the shelf parts, and ironic that despite it's reputation, it actually works as well and reliably as it does.

From what I see though (and I might be completely wrong), they don't seem hugely invested in improving the product (there isn't a 1.2"B" or a 1.3"B" or a 2.1"B") or offering long term end user support (you can't buy parts and it's not that easy to buy a whole "crate" replacement motor).

This leaves the users with very expensive, rapidly depreciating products. Which they love, but worry about at the same time - ultimately at the expense of the reputation of Specialized.

So there's either a lot of tension in the Brose/Spesh camps behind the scenes .. or a lot of turning a blind eye .. so and someone's brother in law's cat's hump buddy's groomer is a good relative of director x, so they just suck it up ..

 

[StuR]

No.

But then it's Bosch which is offering the rolling warranty - not the company using their systems.

I guess Bosch are far more invested in creating a whole "system" and have invested heavily in development, whereas Brose have more jumped on the bandwagon and said what can we re-purpose for not much expenditure and development and churn out OEM motors for about £200 production cost.

Historically, automotive suppliers (and their users) like to supply crap electrical parts which fail (ideally just outside of warranty) so they can sell you exactly the same crap fault part for 10* it's real cost at massive profit ad infinitum.

Ironically, they came up with something which is simple but on the whole actually works really well. (for most people) Ironic in that it works so well from using off the shelf parts, and ironic that despite it's reputation, it actually works as well and reliably as it does.

From what I see though (and I might be completely wrong), they don't seem hugely invested in improving the product (there isn't a 1.2"B" or a 1.3"B" or a 2.1"B") or offering long term end user support (you can't buy parts and it's not that easy to buy a whole "crate" replacement motor).

This leaves the users with very expensive, rapidly depreciating products. Which they love, but worry about at the same time - ultimately at the expense of the reputation of Specialized.

So there's either a lot of tension in the Brose/Spesh camps behind the scenes .. or a lot of turning a blind eye .. so and someone's brother in law's cat's hump buddy's groomer is a good relative of director x, so they just suck it up ..

Thats very deep for you Zim , but ultimately true.
Can we have the Two Ronnies version now please ?? ?

(Showing my age ?)

 

[escrs]

Are Bosch still offering the rolling warranty on the new motors?

A friend who is a trained Bosch technician said they maybe ending this, this was a while ago though, will message him and ask as he was on a course for the new motor a week or so ago

 

[escrs]

So just checked and Bosch still do the rolling warranty on motors for up to 8 years!

So as long as your motor dies within the 2 year warranty period they will replace it and that new motor will have a new two year warranty, they ill do this for 8 years!

I can see a lot of people jet washing their motors when they are 23 months old lol

 

[Doomanic]

I haven't got 12 months out of a Bosch motor yet...

 

[R120]

I think Mahle designed the motor, hawked it about at development stage and Specilized optioned it and got on board - Mahle are already a big player in the Ebike world with their E-Bikemotion systems which is a hub drive kit used in a lot of higher end road ebikes, and yes the range extender kit for that does look very similar to the spesh one.

I do wonder if the motor is essentially their hub drive motor translated into a mid drive application.

Ebikes in general are a massive, and massively growing marketplace, with conventional ebikes being a pretty much perfect soliton for many commuters in the future given the crackdown on combustion engined veichles in city centres that is only going to escalate over the next decade. Hence big engineering firms getting into the mix, which is not bad thing as they have the development power, which when allied with a good bicycle company in a partnership is going to mean lots of exciting developments.

 

[Paul Mac]

To be fair ive loved this bike
But I've been waiting for the inevitable failures.
This last month they've come in abundance and yes they will be fixed under warranty
But how long until the next one ?
I've lost confidence in the bike and Spesh

Also I have no idea which bike is a suitable alternative

I'm with you on this, I've just bought a Trek rail to see how that fares

 

[Bomble]

I keep waiting for a reviewer/Youtuber to do an item on the various motor problems with all makes.
It might help people with their choices and raise the profile of the problems and hopefully put a bit of pressure on the manufactures.
I can't see it happening though. It reminds me of the motorbike world, it's rare you see a bad review probably down to the risk of losing advertising revenue and no longer being invited on the all expenses payed launches.
A few rubber casing gaskets and weatherproof electrical connectors might help too.

 

[TheBikePilot]

There's currently no aftermarket company (that I know of) offering motor servicing/overhaul as at present the Brose motors are being offered at what could be argued a similar price to an aftermarket company servicing it for you.

The new Brose Mag S motor is still within 2 years of release so I am guessing no-one has had to replace it at their own cost yet. Until that time there's no incentive for anyone to reverse engineer a solution to any of the problems which may crop up after the warranty expires.

If you buy a Dirtbike your lucky if you get 1 month on a brand new bike...

Having seen the new Spesh motor up close, I am willing to bet that the failure rate will be much much lower. Certainly within standard QA rates.

Bike companies are now having to become electronic companies overnight which they aren't used to and use off the shelf systems from specialists. Why would Specialized totally reinvent the wheel? They apparently went to Mahle and said we have a very difficult problem for you to help solve with us and they partnered up with them. Apparently it was quite a challenge and they have a great relationship with Mahle.

The Brose Mag S off the shelf is an entirely different beast to the Specialized tuned version as they were allowed access to the Firmware. I imagine they were bound by the manufacturer on connectors. To me, Specialized try to innovate all the time and are always 1 year ahead of the curve but I am sure they realise the need to stay ahead of the curve and have bet big on this project. They have taken all the issues the Mag S had and addressed them, now it's down to the riders for feedback and I haven't seen a post saying it's failed since launch.

 

[Mikerb]

So if Brose/Specialized aren't used to UK weather and rider habits that's kinda their problem. If the external ports on the motor are where moisture enters, and none of us use these ports, there must be a recommended simple way of sealing them up? Silicone sealant?

Probably like most in the UK all of my rides in recent months have been very wet and muddy but it seems to me even fairly deep puddles do not result in much if any water ingress behind the motor covers ( according to my inspections)...certainly not enough to impact on the various connection ports. I think the main water ingress problems result from washing and dampness. Clearly the motor cable design weakness has been one key source of damp or water ingress problems and carefully examining my original cable the cracking of the D section of the motor end plug is not the only problem with the original my19 cable design. The same flexing that eventually causes the motor end plug to crack also breaks the seal of the flexible covering section with the outer sheath of the cable at the motor plug end. The new cable should resolve both of those issues however.
The various ports can be better protected from any damp or direct water ingress. Of course the 3 unused ports should have their blanking covers in place (worth checking if you have had a motor change). I surround those and the speed sensor and TCU connector with grease. Similarly the motor connector can be better sealed by using silicone lube on the 2 green "ring" seals and grease on the body of the connector beyond them. I also taped up the bare wires of the TCU and Speed sensor cables to ensure they were not damaged by rubbing on the motor cover.
Moving up to the TCU I have taped it and used amalgamating tape on the TCU connectors. I have also made a seal to sit between the TCU and frame. In case of any water ingress in the top tube I have used grease to block the entry and exit point of the TCU cable behind the shock...to prevent water running down the cable towards the motor ports.

 

[ImSundee]

One thing to say that hasn't been mentioned is they did say a new TCU is coming or already here.

No other news than that tho.