Another boring tyre question .. Kenevo .. best for natural trails with endless wet rock and roots ?

[Doomanic]

We do consider this forum a village don't we?

Yes; Royston Vasey...

 

[Zimmerframe]

I really don't understand how folk struggle so much choosing an apropriate tyre for the conditions they ride and their skill level/speed

Certain manufacturers have actually been taking the piss for years with the shitty tread paternms they've been selling. (masked by soft compounds)

So basically, unless you have years of experience and knowledge - you're guessing and maybe getting fecked over anyway..

Ok.. so as we've established, you're dealing with Muppets.

We know there are different block types, shapes, spacing. There are different compounds. And yes, they are all compromises. (Tyres).

So, based on your vast knowledge and experience, discounting rider ability, ie presume none, which tyre out there compromises best towards wet root and rock riding. Second to that, which is best towards wet root and wet rock, which also performs reasonably in all other conditions.

 

[Gary]

@Dom

now now tubs. We'll have none of that here!

So basically, unless you have years of experience and knowledge - you're guessing and maybe getting fecked over anyway..

Nope

Try thinking for yourself

it's really not that difficult to work out how a certain shaped piece of rubber will perform in a particular direction of a given surface.

Learn how to ride wet roots and rocks.

On wet roots* the tyre doesn't actually make all that much difference unless it's a complete plumb. Softer compounds and correct pressures "help" but won't turn a clown** into a high wire specialist or acrobat
Similar story for wet rocks. Except the type, shape, angle, placement and what's between them will dictate available grip even more.

* obviously not all roots are the same

**Yes. I'm well aware proper clowns are often highly skilled performers too

As for the perfectly compromised tyre. Wait long enough and someone will be along to recommend an oversized, heavy casing 1600g+ super sticky motocross inspired E bike specifice wonder tyre that's draggyAF and fuck all fun to ride in a playful manner despite some other knobber happily riding the same conditions on a lightweight hard compound 2.3" semislick at 20psi higher pressure. Your answer probably lies somewhere inbetween these two options.

Just ride your bike...

MOAR!

 

[steve_sordy]

I've been looking at these, amongst others, what are they like in really wet muddy conditions?

Are these the ones you have?

Close but not exact. Your link is a DD casing (Double Down). Mine is an EXO casing. They may be the same, I suspect not but I don't know for sure.

Here:
Wiggle | Maxxis High Roller II WT Tyre - 3C - EXO - TR | Tyres

For "really wet and muddy conditions" you really need a mud tyre and I would not say that the HR II is a mud tyre. I like the HR because it does brilliantly most of the year and well for the really shite conditions. But when conditions are bad, they are seldom bad over the whole trail and I have found that a mud tyre that is outstanding in the mud, pings of rocks and roots and fails to grip. I used to swap to mud tyres in the winter but I no longer bother. The turning point was the Continental Trail King with bcc; when I was waiting for the conditions to get bad enough to replace them with my mud tyres, it just never happened!
Unfortunately, Conti don't make the size I need for my emtb, so I got the HRs and I'm very happy with them.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Yes; Royston Vasey...

I'm the only e-biker in the village ..

Try thinking for yourself

Normally gets me into trouble. Hence why I'm here asking wiser men than me for their advice.

it's really not that difficult to work out how a certain shaped piece of rubber will perform in a particular direction of a given surface.

I've re-read this 20 times, and I can find no reason other than "distraction" from your wanting to answer the actual question as to why you would suddenly throw in a whole sentence about Dildo's. Which for today's amusing fact : Dildo, in French slang/short is "god" .. possibly why there are so many churches.

On wet roots* the tyre doesn't actually make all that much difference unless it's a complete plumb. Softer compounds and correct pressures "help" but won't turn a clown** into a high wire specialist or acrobat
Similar story for wet rocks. Except the type, shape, angle, placement and what's between them will dictate available grip even more.

ok. so you're getting the gist of things ... What's in between the wet rocks is wet roots. root.rock.root.root.rock.rock.more evil rock.root.momentary flat rock to straighten bike up and reverse lower intestine motion.rock.root.rock,severely pointy series of bone breaking rocks surrounded by roots. When it's dry .. this is great .. when it's wet, it's like ice skating without ice skates on slightly wet ice.

Learn how to ride wet roots and rocks.

I'm trying .. but as the OH has just seen my cuts holes and bruises and swollen deform body (more than normal) from yesterday and threatened to ban me from riding, I need to make every effort to make sure I can spend the winter months learning and not just washing out.

* obviously not all roots are the same

What about indoor bike parks ?

**Yes. I'm well aware proper clowns are often highly skilled performers too

Conjecture ! We have no one from clown.com to confirm this.

As for the perfectly compromised tyre. Wait long enough and someone will be along to recommend an oversized, heavy casing 1600g+ super sticky motocross inspired E bike specifice wonder tyre that's draggyAF and fuck all fun to ride in a playful manner despite some other knobber happily riding the same conditions on a lightweight hard compound 2.3" semislick at 20psi higher pressure. Your answer probably lies somewhere inbetween these two options.

The other "knobber" has probably been riding all their life and is probably a naturally talented super god whom we all look upto .. but the rest of us who are new to this are naturally untalented and have only been riding for months and come here seeking to expand our knowledge by being pointed in the right direction and have asked pretty open questions and are equally open minded to running a 1.0 slick if that will actually work best.

From my own pathetically limited and painful experience, I know that one tyre can be considerably more grippy on wet root and rock than another. Therefore, from all the tyre makes/compounds/shapes/tread patterns .. very simply there must be a holy grail of tyre and size which is the most efficient when riding on wet root and rock ... WHAT IS IT !!!! **/***

** Whisky in post for correct answer.
*** Irish if it's wrong.


#not all tyres are the same

 

[DrStupid]

If my experience from winter riding motorcycles in the woods carry's over to emtb... these will hook up on wet and frozen roots. Rocks too, but not as well as roots ,and they tend to wear fast on rocks. Like 20 minutes fast.

 

[Gary]

In no particular order:

• I like dildos Zim. And in the right hands an E-dildo can be even more fun
• I love clowns. They're the ninjas of the Circus
• One of my children (and her mother) is French so actually know a bit of the lingo. But can't spell en Frencais (so rarely ever type it)
• You're in the wrong village. Royston Vasey is not Llanddewi Brefi
• Line choice appropriate speed and correct weight distribution are your friends in any slippy situation
• as is planning, . looking ahead and full commitment while staying loose/relaxed. (I know I know... how can you ever be committed if you're that cool )
• I live 200metres from a distillery
• I don't like Whisky at all (but sigh if I see it spelled "W h i s k e y")
• I'm 1/16th Irish - I still don't like Whiskey (or Whisky)
• I've already told you what the grippiest tyre on wet rock and wet root is, you just need to piece together all the information my persistent obsessive friend.

#MaxxisTwentysixinchX4point8SlowreezayCustomcutFBF@4PSIwarmedto80degC

 

[Zimmerframe]

In no particular order:

• I like dildos Zim. And in the right hands an E-dildo can be even more fun
• I love clowns. They're the ninjas of the Circus
• One of my children (and her mother) is French so actually know a bit of the lingo. But can't spell en Frencais (so rarely ever type it)
• You're in the wrong village. Royston Vasey is not Llanddewi Brefi
• Line choice appropriate speed and correct weight distribution are your friends in any slippy situation
• as is planning, . looking ahead and full commitment while staying loose/relaxed. (I know I know... how can you ever be committed if you're that cool )
• I live 200metres from a distillery
• I don't like Whisky at all (but sigh if I see it spelled "W h i s k e y")
• I'm 1/16th Irish - I still don't like Whiskey (or Whisky)
• I've already told you what the grippiest tyre on wet rock and wet root is, you just need to piece together all the information my persistent obsessive friend.

View attachment 19685

#MaxxisTwentysixinchX4point8SlowreezayCustomcutFBF@4PSIwarmedto80degC

How did you get my web cam images from when I read your post earlier..

Ah, you're a bourbon guy then ?

4psi ? Guys don't even run their inflatable friend that low on cuddle night.

I thought tyre warmers were behind me..

Sorry, crap reply, back on phone...

 

[Gary]

definitely partial to a

pack of them

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

In no particular order:

• I like dildos Zim. And in the right hands an E-dildo can be even more fun
• I love clowns. They're the ninjas of the Circus
• One of my children (and her mother) is French so actually know a bit of the lingo. But can't spell en Frencais (so rarely ever type it)
• You're in the wrong village. Royston Vasey is not Llanddewi Brefi
• Line choice appropriate speed and correct weight distribution are your friends in any slippy situation
• as is planning, . looking ahead and full commitment while staying loose/relaxed. (I know I know... how can you ever be committed if you're that cool )
• I live 200metres from a distillery
• I don't like Whisky at all (but sigh if I see it spelled "W h i s k e y")
• I'm 1/16th Irish - I still don't like Whiskey (or Whisky)
• I've already told you what the grippiest tyre on wet rock and wet root is, you just need to piece together all the information my persistent obsessive friend.

View attachment 19685

#MaxxisTwentysixinchX4point8SlowreezayCustomcutFBF@4PSIwarmedto80degC

Good old Slowreezaay,
I still have a very slightly used 2.35 High Roller version in my garage

 

[stiv674]

Close but not exact. Your link is a DD casing (Double Down). Mine is an EXO casing. They may be the same, I suspect not but I don't know for sure.

Here:
Wiggle | Maxxis High Roller II WT Tyre - 3C - EXO - TR | Tyres

For "really wet and muddy conditions" you really need a mud tyre and I would not say that the HR II is a mud tyre. I like the HR because it does brilliantly most of the year and well for the really shite conditions. But when conditions are bad, they are seldom bad over the whole trail and I have found that a mud tyre that is outstanding in the mud, pings of rocks and roots and fails to grip. I used to swap to mud tyres in the winter but I no longer bother. The turning point was the Continental Trail King with bcc; when I was waiting for the conditions to get bad enough to replace them with my mud tyres, it just never happened!
Unfortunately, Conti don't make the size I need for my emtb, so I got the HRs and I'm very happy with them.

Thanks, I think the DD is heavier so maybe more reinforced...

Yeah I except there's going to be compromises in any tyre, the tread on the HR II looks more open than on the Minions so I think they should be slightly better in the mud, I'll probably give them a go.

It's hard work this thinking for yourself!

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Thanks, I think the DD is heavier so maybe more reinforced...

Yeah I except there's going to be compromises in any tyre, the tread on the HR II looks more open than on the Minions so I think they should be slightly better in the mud, I'll probably give them a go.

It's hard work this thinking for yourself!

Look at the Maxxis Shorty folks or if it is super muddy a Maxxis Wet Scream (not sure if the Wet Screams are still available)

 

[Zimmerframe]

I still have a very slightly used 2.35 High Roller version in my garage

You weren't totally convinced then ......?!

I like dildos Zim. And in the right hands an E-dildo can be even more fun

Is there any truth that you started the rumour that 9/10 ladies find their Yamaha E-Friend to be indiscreet ?

It's hard work this thinking for yourself!

It's overrated

Look at the Maxxis Shorty folks or if it is super muddy a Maxxis Wet Scream

Are you making these up now or just cross eyed and reading a german shorts catalogue, a tyre catalogue and a cocktail list at the same time ?

 

[brizi2003]

#Zimmerframe - you any closer to picking a tyre yet?

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Slowreezaay,
Very convinced, It’s an awesome tyre so I wanted to save it for a special occasion as Maxxis stopped making them. Forgot I had it and only found it when I moved a few years ago.

Maxxis Shorty
Google it and you will see all the info on it.

Wet Screams
Used a set of these in Morzine in 2001. Awesome tyre in very wet muddy conditions. Pretty scary on the road returning from the trails though as the tread is very spikey. Google it and you will see.

You are right, both definitely could be mistaken for alcoholic beverages

 

[Zimmerframe]

#Zimmerframe - you any closer to picking a tyre yet?

If that's tongue in cheek .. naaaaaa ... if not ...

I'm in the ABSORB phase .. but at the moment, I hate to say it .. NOPE ..

I did really like my DHRII/DHF 2.8/27.5 combination in exo on the last bike (low spec hardtail). They gave huge confidence and good grip in all situations and at 1.2 bar gave useful additional suspension to a newby muppet and made me feel immortal. They gave me confidence, which in turn enabled me to improve as a rider.

The Kenevo is just so different. Speeds everywhere are much higher and I've only just got round to tubeless, as even at high pressures it's phenomenal in comparison.

If I'm not transiting on a fire road, I'm on natural trails. Most are gnarly, tight and the majority have high concentrations of rocks and roots - which is fine in the dry.

I really liked the idea of 2.8, but I can comprehend that they might make things less sharp on my kind of trails. So I'm happy to drop down size wise, it's whatever size gives the correct/easiest/most suitable result for me.

I don't really want to run cushcore .. not sure why, possibly because it looks like a pain in the arse to install... possibly because it just seems like another level of complication when dealing with compromises. I don't think @Grumpy , sorry, @Gary , is a fan - and from what I've read , I can understand his reasoning ..

I don't want something with paper sidewalls like the Ikon (only as an example of thin sidewalls) as they slash up too easily on this terrain.. and likewise (oh christ, I'm agreeing with @Grumpy... ) I don't want 1600g tyres because they're going to be a pig.

Kiwi's just updated, so I need to check those out ...

But yup .. uhmm.....

So many people have good results with Assegai tyres, highrollers and e-wilds and so on .. but until you've tried them yourself .. I've got about 47 tabs open just on maxxis at the moment .. arghhhhhhh ...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Wet Screams

Holy ..... they look like something Mad Max would use for mincing people ..

 

[Rusty]

#Zimmerframe - you any closer to picking a tyre yet?

10 moar pagez or 3 moar threads first.....

 

[CjP]

Just to throw another mix the mix. My brother uses these on the back of his Merida and swears by them. I have witnessed him ride up a super muddy, rocky, rooty steep climb with relative easy. It was a little rutty so I’m assuming those side knobs helped that.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Maxxis Shorty

OK .. it's not a German clothing item ..

Maxxis' Shorty tire was originally developed for the World Cup downhill circuit, where cut down mud spikes are a common sight on riders' bikes when course conditions are anything other than bone dry. Now available in a lighter weight, folding bead version, the Shorty's open, blocky tread pattern is designed to dig in and cut through the slop, but the knob height is less than that of a traditional mud spike, a designed intended to create a broader range of usable conditions, since the shorter knobs are less likely to fold over and deform on drier trails.

And now I have about 58 tyre tabs ..

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just to throw another mix the mix. My brother uses these on the back of his Merida and swears by them. I have witnessed him ride up a super muddy, rocky, rooty steep climb with relative easy. It was a little rutty so I’m assuming those side knobs helped that.

God rest his sole, but I can't help but think that Keith Flint Designed these .

 

[Gary]

I had a riding buddy who would buy new tyres every few weekends. each time proclaiming the tyres to be the greatest set he'd ever used. He'd also be the first guy to have all the kit that was featured in that months mtb mags and also changed bikes at least two or three times a year. Eventually moving onto roadbikes instead of mtb and repeating the whole procedure. He's pretty much given up riding bikes altogether now.
Despite trying out 15000 (this might be an exageration. I lost count/interest after a while ) different tyres and always having the on-trend bike of the moment the only constant over the 15 years I rode with this guy was that his riding skill never ever really progressed in any way.

Don't get too hung up on having the best tyres possible. spend time improving your riding technique. Get off and look at the parts of a trail you're having difficulty with, session them, try different approaches/lines. Try to work out why some sections give you so much more grief just because there's moisture involved. But above all enjoy your riding. There's no shame in walking a difficult section if you really aren't sure you'll make it through without hurting yourself.

15 points if you get the pic ref

 

[Flatslide]

I bought my Altitude near the start of winter here. As Dunedin is surrounded by extinct volcanos, we have plenty of steep, slimy, root covered and rocky terrain. On my Remedy 9 the best front I found for all year use is the Magic Mary bike-park. On the rear a Trail King or Der Kaiser, and when it gets really slippery a Baron or a Shorty. The RM came with Minion DHF and Aggressor 2.5" on AR 35mm internal width RF rims. They've been a good combo through our cold and wet season. Sections of Signal hill under the pines remain dry and dusty all year round and the Maxxis tyres have worked great in there too. I'd like to try a Magic Mary for the front next. As for the rear, I've a Trail King 2.4" that needs destroying...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Blimey ... Other Gary's back !!

These Damned MOOD swings ! ;-)

Aesops fabels ? .. something like that ? how am I supposed to remember everything ..

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

If that's tongue in cheek .. naaaaaa ... if not ...

I'm in the ABSORB phase .. but at the moment, I hate to say it .. NOPE ..

I did really like my DHRII/DHF 2.8/27.5 combination in exo on the last bike (low spec hardtail). They gave huge confidence and good grip in all situations and at 1.2 bar gave useful additional suspension to a newby muppet and made me feel immortal. They gave me confidence, which in turn enabled me to improve as a rider.

The Kenevo is just so different. Speeds everywhere are much higher and I've only just got round to tubeless, as even at high pressures it's phenomenal in comparison.

If I'm not transiting on a fire road, I'm on natural trails. Most are gnarly, tight and the majority have high concentrations of rocks and roots - which is fine in the dry.

I really liked the idea of 2.8, but I can comprehend that they might make things less sharp on my kind of trails. So I'm happy to drop down size wise, it's whatever size gives the correct/easiest/most suitable result for me.

I don't really want to run cushcore .. not sure why, possibly because it looks like a pain in the arse to install... possibly because it just seems like another level of complication when dealing with compromises. I don't think @Grumpy , sorry, @Gary , is a fan - and from what I've read , I can understand his reasoning ..

I don't want something with paper sidewalls like the Ikon (only as an example of thin sidewalls) as they slash up too easily on this terrain.. and likewise (oh christ, I'm agreeing with @Grumpy... ) I don't want 1600g tyres because they're going to be a pig.

Kiwi's just updated, so I need to check those out ...

But yup .. uhmm.....

So many people have good results with Assegai tyres, highrollers and e-wilds and so on .. but until you've tried them yourself .. I've got about 47 tabs open just on maxxis at the moment .. arghhhhhhh ...

Schwalbe Magic Marys is another option and is a good all round tyre. They don’t clear mud as well as Maxxis Shortys though so it depends on what terrain you are riding.

If you are getting slashes rather than pinch punctures Cush cores will be a waste of time on your terrain as you will still puncture. I found I was getting slash punctures on the rear all the time so I changed to a Super Gravity case. 275 Eddy Current 2.8 rear on my 2017 Levo and 29 Eddy Current 2.6 rear on my 2019 Levo. This cured my slash puncture problem. I still have multiple slash marks on both rear tyres but because the tyre casing is a lot thicker they don’t puncture anymore . Also, Schwalbe’s SG and DH casings have the added benefit of reinforced sidewalls that actually works which means it is very good at preventing pinch punctures. Only downside is these tyres are heavier. The upside is fit and forget and not one slash puncture or pinch puncture in over a year . I run a Magic Mary Apex Soft tubeless on front as I find I don’t need the SG protection on the front. I run the above all year round as it rains all year round in Wales. I run 25-29psi. The above may not work for you but it works for me in wet old Wales.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Gary is 100% correct,

Spend time improving your riding technique. Get off and look at the parts of a trail you're having difficulty with, session them, try different approaches/lines. Try to work out why some sections give you so much more grief just because there's moisture involved. But above all enjoy your riding. There's no shame in walking a difficult section if you really aren't sure you'll make it through without hurting yourself.

 

[CjP]

I agree with Gary re sessioning. One of the many benefits of ebikes.
I am guilty of just hammering through trails without actually paying attention to the terrain. The speed junkie in me just wants to go fast.
My brother showed me the benefits of sessioning and it has improved my riding a great deal.
Gary is right, learn the skills! It not only makes you a better rider all round but it makes thing a lot more fun.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Gary is 100% correct,

I agree with Gary re sessioning.

Och, fech't , ya wee toss bags have hacked d'forum !

 

[outerlimits]

Bit off topic but still about Kenevo in the wet - Brose Alu S in the wet. Any suggestions on sealing the left side crankshaft bearing from water without opening the motor up & putting a proper rubber seal in? Maybe grease. View attachment 19658

Yes
It has to be super tacky extreme conditions water proof grease. Not water resistant grease, but water proof.
The only grease I found that fits the bill and I now use for just about everything including a barrier for the motor bearings is Moreys Bigfoot grease.

 

[Mikerb]

1. I am still using the stock butchers
2. I concentrate on understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the tyre and try to ride accordingly.
3. I have improved my single track speed and security most by learning how to corner properly.....doing that, the transition "gap" from centre to edge knobs on the Butcher is no problem
4. there is no grip on a wet root regardless what tyre ( or shoe) you have......hit them square or hop over them.
5. I don't ride in deep claggy mud....its no fun and it takes ages to clean the bike afterwards. Fortunately pine forest floors on steep slopes around here are no claggy!