A new model of EMTB frame with Bosch / Shimano / Yamaha motor?

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Hello every DIY masters.
Our company is going to develop a new model of carbon fiber EMTB frame with the rear shock in a horizontal position. Now we seek help and advice from all European customers which are brand bicycle and bicycle shop.
Mainly on the engine/ motor. We have three choices: Bosch / Shimano / Yamaha. We want to know which motor is easier to obtain and sell better in Europe.

Hope to get the advice from you,

Jim Lee-Lightcarbon

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

attached the draft

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Are you selling it as a frame only? Who will your customers be?

As an end user, it’s extremely difficult to purchase a Bosch / Shimano / Brose and Yamaha motor. There’s no real market for these, unless you’re selling to OEM brands who have relationships and accounts already with the big motor manufacturers.

There is a healthy DIY community who can buy Bafang motors, and fit these at home, so maybe Bafang would be a good option?

But geometry of the frame is also important. Can you post this?

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Thanks for your answer,
We already have 8 frames suitable for Bafang motor (M500/M510/M620),
In this forum, there are posts discussing our LCES004 frame,
And some photos:

EMTB frame fit for Bafang motor and battery

16 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

the customers for new model are the bike shop and small local brand in Europe. they like the motor power 250W.
We also have several frames suitable for Shimano ep800 motor, but it is difficult to sell now because the customer can't find the motor.
We want to develop a new model because there are always many small batch orders asking us whether there is a framework suitable for Bosch and Yamaha motor. However, we don't know much about Bosch motor in the Chinese market, also Yamaha Motor is mainly used on motorcycles in China,

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Thanks for your answer,
We already have 8 frames suitable for Bafang motor (M500/M510/M620),
In this forum, there are posts discussing our LCES004 frame,
And some photos:

EMTB frame fit for Bafang motor and battery

16 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

the customers for new model are the bike shop and small local brand in Europe. they like the motor power 250W.
We also have several frames suitable for Shimano ep800 motor, but it is difficult to sell now because the customer can't find the motor.
We want to develop a new model because there are always many small batch orders asking us whether there is a framework suitable for Bosch and Yamaha motor. However, we don't know much about Bosch motor in the Chinese market, also Yamaha Motor is mainly used on motorcycles in China,

How about Polini, the E-P3 MX? This might be a great one for both batch orders, and DIY enthusiasts?

 

[Nobrks]

Dear Jim-lee,
From DIY point of view, Bafang is the easiest to buy the whole system from.
I would love to see LCES801, for Bafang m800.

But on general notes, the chainstay length of your frames is often quiet longer than the average.
BR

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

How about Polini, the E-P3 MX? This might be a great one for both batch orders, and DIY enthusiasts?

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your recommendation, I checked E-P3 MX, A perfect motor.
Even better, its battery pack is very small,
But it has a common problem of all products from Italy. The price is too high and the output is too low.
We develop a new mold. The cost of the first size is $20000 to $30000, and the cost of each size is more than $10000. Usually, a frame is about two or three sizes.
but, The profit of each frame is about $50 to $100,
Therefore, we need to specify the model according to the possible sales volume.
Now we have four customers, who are likely to book more than 200 sets at one time, but they have some doubts about the availability of the motor. Although two of them have the regional agency right of Shimano, the agent can't get the motor too.
The difficulty of our choice lies in the best balance between the acceptance of end customers and the ease of motor acquisition

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Dear Jim-lee,
From DIY point of view, Bafang is the easiest to buy the whole system from.
I would love to see LCES801, for Bafang m800.

But on general notes, the chainstay length of your frames is often quiet longer than the average.
BR

Hi my friend,
M800 usually fit for road E-bike, not for EMTB, 200w and 55NM is too small for possible riding environment of mountain bike.
LCES801 and LCES879 fit for EP800 for EMTB, and also can use the OLI brand motor from Italy.
if want frame fit for M800, choose E-Road bike frame LCE21, only size 55cm in stock.
about the length of chainstay. the length from center of BB to the center of wheel, it's depends the wheel of frame used, your M800 fit for road E-bike, max tire is about 700*32c , so the length is about 440mm, but for EMTB frame, normally the rider want a width tire, so length is bigger, our length 460mm, fit for tire 650b*3.0'' and 29er 2.35''.

 

[Nobrks]

Hi my friend,
M800 usually fit for road E-bike, not for EMTB, 200w and 55NM is too small for possible riding environment of mountain bike.
LCES801 and LCES879 fit for EP800 for EMTB, and also can use the OLI brand motor from Italy.....

Thank you for a detailed answer. I understand from your reply that the motor type that takes up most space around BB, defines the chainstay, as you often make same frame with different motor types, and of corse tire size. OLI is new to me, interesting option

The low powered ebikes (35-60NM) are gaining popularity, mainly because of low weight, and currently only available from high priced manufactures, 6,5-10.000 Euros, such as Specialized Levo SL, Orbea Rise M20 and Forestal.

Forestal is using the Bafang M800 motor for e-MTB Forestal | Cyon
On reviews by owners and what you can find on youtube, the feedback on the motor is good.
Owners thread: Forestal Siryon 2021 Edition One - Owners Thread - EMTB Forums

Yamaha could also be potential opportunity, because their product is competitive to Brose and Bosh in terms of weight and performance, but they still have small market share, so they might be eager to increase quantity in production. But I-m not sure with OEM sales, in regards of minimum quantity. And not available for DIY .

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Now, Bafangl ultra light M510 motor is also very popular in Europe. After all, greater torque can go through more complex road conditions
As for the difference of 700g in weight, it's not a big problem for the overall weight of about 20kg for a EMTB,

 

[1oldfart]

I am in Canada and what is missing is an Efat, maybe on 26 or 27 and why not on 29+
Many buy the Norco but many want other options. My top is Yamaha.
With just 1 frame you could offer different models on different wheels/tires.

 

[Micheal Edwards]

Hi Jim,

I think if the frame is a reasonable price, a lot of people with heavy alloy frames will buy it. Making it available for Bosch and Shimano is a good idea.

Mick

 

[Troutwrestler]

The trick that frame manufacturers might be missing it to design a frame that can take multiple different motors via a modular inserts that can mount the different motors to the frame. We can do this for different dropouts for different axles, so why not for motors.
It would also enable the potential upgrade to newer motors that are not on the market yet.

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

The trick that frame manufacturers might be missing it to design a frame that can take multiple different motors via a modular inserts that can mount the different motors to the frame. We can do this for different dropouts for different axles, so why not for motors.
It would also enable the potential upgrade to newer motors that are not on the market yet.

We have considered adding an adjustable BB lifting rail to adapt to different motors, but it is difficult to reach. Due to the special material of carbon fiber frame, it cannot be processed in the later stage. Different motors correspond to different fixed rails (fixed motors). This rail must be fixed on the frame by the factory in the process of producing carbon fiber frame. It can not like the aluminum alloy frame can be transformed and processed in the later stage.

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Hi Jim,

I think if the frame is a reasonable price, a lot of people with heavy alloy frames will buy it. Making it available for Bosch and Shimano is a good idea.

Mick

Hi Mick,
the price will be about USD$750/set EXW price, including frame+ seat clamp+ head set+ rear thru-axle, and an extra hanger for rear derailleur (so total are two hangers,).
Color: UD matt, (painting customized is acceptable with extra cost.)
It is possible to fit to Shimano motors, but Bosch is very difficult at present, because even several wholesalers selling Bosch electric vehicles say it is difficult to get motors. Now

 

[Micheal Edwards]

Jim,
It sounds very reasonable to me. Good luck and I hope it becomes very popular.
Mick

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Effect drawing is finished, motor is still no decision,

 

[1oldfart]

I agree i would stay away from Shimano with their very poor
battery records many stay away.

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

any one know the Italy motor brand named "OLI"? some of our customer said that the dimension as same as Shimano E8000. but now easy to get in Europe market?

 

[KaroKönig]

Effect drawing is finished, motor is still no decision,

View attachment 88139

View attachment 88140

View attachment 88141

If the frame now gets a slack steering angle between 65 and 66 degrees and a steep seat angle + BAFANG M510 motor mount I would pre-order one right away

 

[Timochka69]

Basically the motor systems available in Europe are Bafang and Oli. Polini maybe in the future.

Other systems are very hard to find and costly. E.g. Shimano E-800 at about 1200 € for the bare motor and I've only seen those available 3 times in single digit numbers so far.

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Basically the motor systems available in Europe are Bafang and Oli. Polini maybe in the future.

Other systems are very hard to find and costly. E.g. Shimano E-800 at about 1200 € for the bare motor and I've only seen those available 3 times in single digit numbers so far.

An Italian EMTB shop store told me that polini's order had arranged after May 2023,
Bosch request MOQ is 500 sets,
Brose and OLI, I have asked some EMTB shops in UK and Italy to inquire, but so far I have not replied,
Now, the only thing can confirm is the Bafang M510 motor. also easy to buy batteries 820wh, 48V.

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

If the frame now gets a slack steering angle between 65 and 66 degrees and a steep seat angle + BAFANG M510 motor mount I would pre-order one right away

head tube angel in drawing now is 65°, maybe later need some changes, seat tube angle still no result, We want to increase the maximum insertion depth of seat post, Now we are collecting the data of brands dropper post.

 

[KaroKönig]

head tube angel in drawing now is 65°, maybe later need some changes, seat tube angle still no result, We want to increase the maximum insertion depth of seat post, Now we are collecting the data of brands dropper post.

When can I buy the frame ?

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

After the drawings are finalized, it will take at least two months to produce the test framework and modify it according to the test results. Therefore, the total time is about four months, for M size (normally choose one size first,)

 

[KaroKönig]

After the drawings are finalized, it will take at least two months to produce the test framework and modify it according to the test results. Therefore, the total time is about four months, for M size (normally choose one size first,)

Ok anticipation is the most beautiful joy

 

[R120]

Personally I would offer a Shimano version. This is because I would have thought your biggest market is actually people with an older bike who would buy the frame from you and transfer most of the parts over from their old bike, including the motor.

I have a couple of bikes with the E8000 system, and if your frame hit the right specs in terms of geometry then I would definitely be interested.

Also with Shimano because the system is not locked into only using Shimano batteries, it would give a good amount of options on that aspect, unlike Bosch where you have to use a Bosch battery.

I looked at buying one of your frames before, but the geometry was too dated. I would never suggest copying another brands geometry, but if you look at the best bikes out there right now you would get a good idea of what’s good and what’s not.

 

[Slaine]

After the drawings are finalized, it will take at least two months to produce the test framework and modify it according to the test results. Therefore, the total time is about four months, for M size (normally choose one size first,)

Hi Jim,
I have many pleasure with LCFS947 MTB frame since 6 month and build an LCES004 with M510 motor. My question is why you don't use the LCFS947 geometry to develop a new EMTB frame?
the frame is modern but not agressiv and I think is a good start for your new development

 

[Nobrks]

Hi Jim,
I have many pleasure with LCFS947 MTB frame since 6 month and build an LCES004 with M510 motor. My question is why you don't use the LCFS947 geometry to develop a new EMTB frame?
the frame is modern but not agressiv and I think is a good start for your new development

Agree, Just make the seat post angle, actual 77deg and longer seatpost insert with different shock position.
For referance Vmg are getting 443mm chainstay w m510 and 29”

 

[JimLee-Lightcarbon]

Agree, Just make the seat post angle, actual 77deg and longer seatpost insert with different shock position.
For referance Vmg are getting 443mm chainstay w m510 and 29”

We have tried it before, but the seat tube angle is 77 degrees, which will cause the center of gravity to move forward. When the seat tube is tested for fatigue, it fails to meet the standard of 100 thousands times,
The center of gravity of the enduro EMTB is closer to the rear than that of the Enduro MTB, because the weight of the battery inside the seat tube should be considered.