90% of ebikes leverages are a joke.

[Eddy Current]

One tip for the brands; why don’t offer at least as an option a different linkage for the ones who want to blast a bit? When I see people with coil on a Levo is like ... spend 6k on and ebike and then need to fill the whole shock with spacers is like ... when you prioritize pedal efficency on a EBIKE over pedal kickback is like ...

And this is done even by genuine enduro brands on their enduro ebikes.

This remind me when I was young I bought a Audi TT thinking it was a sport car, until I tried a Honda S2000

Yeah, f 29ers f integrated batterys and now ... f comfy linkages

You want a progressive suspension? Orbea, Canyon, Rocky Mountain, Bulls, Mondraker, YT, Pivot, Whyte, Giant, Santa Cruz, Rotwild, Intense, Norco ... and some of their models only, and some let’s say they can do a bit better ... still not enough for a coil but well, at least not leaving all the job to the shock.

You want a joke? Spe, Trek, Merida, Haibike, Scott, Cube, Focus, Lapierre Cannondsle ... and i stop here because is endless ...

Evidence based: my balls

 

[Gary]

Is it "Choose a leverage progression and be a dick about it" day already?

Your leverage data for the one bike listed that I do happen to know the curve of is wrong. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest other data in your chart may well be wrong too.

A suitably progressive leverage curve for a coil shock isn't the be all and end all in suspension design. Infact it's only of importance at all if you want that bike to run a coil shock. and even then some riders prefer more or less progression than others.
Comparing leverage data between a bunch of bikes designed for air shocks alongside a bunch of bikes designed to run coil shocks is just stupid and comparison's made between them are unfair.

Yeah. some clueless folk blindly buy coil shocks for bikes with unsuitable leverage ratios. so what? most of them don't even notice that it's detrimental and some will even tell you they think it's been a huge improvement

Ride your bike more Eddy

 

[Eddy Current]

Is it "Choose a leverage progression and be a dick about it" day already?

Your leverage data for the one bike listed that I do happen to know the curve of is wrong. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest other data in your chart may well be wrong too.

A suitably progressive leverage curve for a coil shock isn't the be all and end all in suspension design. Infact it's only of importance at all if you want that bike to run a coil shock. and even then some riders prefer more or less progression than others.
Comparing leverage data between a bunch of bikes designed for air shocks alongside a bunch of bikes designed to run coil shocks is just stupid and comparison's made between them are unfair.

Yeah. some clueless folk blindly buy coil shocks for bikes with unsuitable leverage ratios. so what? most of them don't even notice that it's detrimental and some will even tell you they think it's been a huge improvement

Ride your bike more Eddy

Even with that almost all leverages fall short for an air shock. They just leave the spacers to do the job wich is a crappy way to do it. Spacers are for adjust not to fix. Canyon leverage is very good, and they claim you cannot run a coil. Many of the ebikes with good progressive leverages came stock air not a coil.

I ride my bike as much as I can, what’s got to do with criticizing? I mean you can have sex everyday and not because of that you’re not going to complain if your girl is getting fatter and fatter (no sexist intend here)

And what about pedal efficency over less pedal kickback? On a enduro ebike c’mon ...

Ebikes are getting so mainstream dude i always told y’all basketball shoes were about playing basketball not to be a fancy wear.

When you see a 160mm 65ha ebike is supposed to be about some slamming not just stand up and let the bike roll steep down on the brakes

 

[Gary]

You greatly overestimate the standard of riding the average EMTB owner actually does.

 

[CjP]

The fact you thought an Audi TT was a sports car was enough for me.

 

[Eddy Current]

You greatly overestimate the standard of riding the average EMTB owner actually does.

I don’t if I over or underestimate it all I know most of ebikes are those Audi TT auto 4WD eps torquie Turbo motor that I mention before and a few are a RWD manual revy 9000 rpm Honda S2K ... and maybe it’s me when you put over 140mm and over 66 ha on a bike is not for a comfy commute ride

 

[Eddy Current]

The fact you thought an Audi TT was a sports car was enough for me.

Hate that car I’m not own it for more than a year. A golf with flashy body. Fake boobs on a wonder bra

 

[ChillyWilly]

Could you explain some of the numbers in the table?

 

[Hamina]

You want a progressive suspension? Orbea, Canyon, Rocky Mountain, Bulls, Mondraker, YT, Pivot, Whyte, Giant, Santa Cruz, Rotwild, Intense, Norco ... and some of their models only, and some let’s say they can do a bit better ... still not enough for a coil but well, at least not leaving all the job to the shock.

What does it technically mean when you say "not enough for coil"? Does it make difference if the coil spring rate is linear or progressive?

Canyon leverage is very good, and they claim you cannot run a coil.

Is this just policy thing or is there a real technical reason? Even if and when the coil shock has enough space to move in the frame?

The table headers needs explaining.

 

[Mteam]

The table headers needs explaining.

In order

Travel
Antisquat
Antirise
Eye to eye length of shock
Shock stroke
Leverage ratio at 0% travel
Leverage ratio at 25% travel
Leverage ratio at 100% travel
Average leverage ratio
P0 no idea
P25 no idea

 

[The Hodge]

Analysis by Paralysis ..?
To quote a well known MTB magazine..Just Get Out & Ride

 

[CjP]

Hate that car I’m not own it for more than a year. A golf with flashy body. Fake boobs on a wonder bra

And yet you drove it for almost a year..
I would have driven it into the rear of a Porsche Boxter and used the insurance money to buy a slacked out, big travel, lightweight ebike.
Waaaaaay more fun!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

In order

Travel
Antisquat
Antirise
Eye to eye length of shock
Shock stroke
Leverage ratio at 0% travel
Leverage ratio at 25% travel
Leverage ratio at 100% travel
Average leverage ratio
P0 no idea
P25 no idea

P0 is the percentage difference between 0% travel leverage ratio and 100% travel leverage ratio.

P25 is the same but between 100% and 25%

Higher percentage is more progressive curve

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Also, 2020 Vitus E-Sommet data doesn’t look right?

Here’s the LC

 

[billwarwick]

Analysis by Paralysis ..?
To quote a well known MTB magazine..Just Get Out & Ride

Too much information. Who gives a shit?
I’m off for a long walk to see if I can find something interesting in the local streams.

 

[Gary]

OK. Sebastian Loeb here doesn't seem to get that a good leverage curve for an Enduro mtb is not dictated solely by how progressive it is but by how well it suits the rider and the shock.
For example take 3 times on the trot EWS series winner Sam Hill's 2021 Nukeproof mega where the designers with input from Sam and the rest of the team have tweaked the suspension design to LOWER its progression.
Maybe have a wee think about why they have chosen to do this to one of the most successful Enduro bikes ever produced.

instead of obsessively willy measuring and comparing percentages between flaccid to erect take pride in using what you have to the best of your ability. Once you've genuinely surpassed the limits of your equipment maybe you'll even have gut gud.

 

[Gary]

Well i was thinking last night that Specialized needs to have a rethink because their Levo, Kenevo and other FSR based bikes are just not as good Santa Cruz and other brands suspension designs.

Yeah Loic Bruni really struggles on his doesn't he?

 

[Gary]

Loic Bruni doesnt have to push his bike back home because the shock snapped in half.

Probably not. Greg has a guy for that...

But the GOAT has been around a lot longer

Eddy's thread seems to be about leverage curve performance.
I've no idea what reliability issues the Kenevo frame has but it doesn't have a terrible leverage curve.

 

[cole_inman]

I just finished budding up my Nukeproof Giga which has progression adjustment from 24% to 29% (not positive on those numbers). Waiting for trails to dry out to take it on its maiden voyage, but it’s in the more progressive setting with 220psi (I’m 170lbs) in the Fox X2. No idea how many tokens come factory installed on an XL frame, but I’m excited to be able to experiment with the progression throughout the whole travel instead of just the end. More bikes need this type of adjustment. I also think all ebikes need adjustable chainstay length but that’s a different thread!

Love I have the curves on my Norco Sight VLT. Low anti squat feels amazing on an eeb, since it causes super low pedal kickback, and the bob isn’t bad on climbs. A remote climb switch would be nice but I don’t do a ton of technical climbing. Super active suspension, especially compared to my old Ripmo AF. 220psi in the Super Deluxe and I never bottom it out hard even on drops to flat.

 

[Utah Rider]

My wife has a medium 17' Levo and I have an extra large 17' Levo. They both ride completely different. I also have an 18' Levo carbon extra large. They both ride and climb completely different. The 17' is a Billy goat on a climb and the 18' can't keep the front end down. My only concern is not being crushed by the second battery in my Camelback hawg during a crash. Good day! ?

 

[Eddy Current]

No matter how much you try to relativize it, the leverages on almost the whole bunch of ebikes are fairly on the edge and that’s with top of the range specs shocks. Rely all on the shock is not the way. There’s no replacement for a natural linkage behave , fitting spacers all the way not only affects the progression isolated. I tried and is a bit of a botch. Period.

 

[Gary]

No they aren't mate. You just have a skewed and fairly narrow idea of what you think a suspension leverage curve has to be. Who knows where you even get your stance from. You certainly haven't ever gone into any great detail here as to why you feel a certain amount of progression is absolutely essential for every rider out there (clue: it isn't)
There's little point in repeating what I've said already but suffice to say I'm glad we're not all Eddys.

 

[Eddy Current]

No they aren't mate. You just have a skewed and fairly narrow idea of what you think a suspension leverage curve has to be. Who knows where you even get your stance from. You certainly haven't ever gone into any great detail here as to why you feel a certain amount of progression is absolutely essential for every rider out there (clue: it isn't)
There's little point in repeating what I've said already but suffice to say I'm glad we're not all Eddys.

No need to get in detail, just watch where the ebike market goes. Riders are 10% ...90% rest of the people. So they move into a comfy suspension. But like I said in the beginning brands should offer at least an option (labeled as perfomance and all that) other linkage. Aftermarket such cascade does so i don’t think is that hard. 150hp is ok of power for most people and maybe you cant call it a slow car, but is not plenty of power either.

 

[Gary]

You do talk an outstanding amount of guff Ed

I hadn't realised you placed yourself in the top 10% of Enduro riders. But even if that were the case it's not until you reach the top 1-2% that you'd need to worry about your suspension performance to the extent you are here. and even then you'd still find yourself racing against and being beaten by faster riders using bikes with less progressive leverage curves that you decided for no real reason to discount as a joke

 

[Eddy Current]

You do talk an outstanding amount of guff Ed

I hadn't realised you placed yourself in the top 10% of Enduro riders. But even if that were the case it's not until you reach the top 1-2% that you'd need to worry about your suspension performance to the extent you are here. and even then you'd still find yourself racing against and being beaten by faster riders using bikes with less progressive leverage curves that you decided for no real reason to discount as a joke

C’mon Gary, just do a few drops with a Levo of a friend and you realize how crap is. Take a berm, shitty mid stroke support, no feedback. It takes little effort to take the misery out. Yeah sometimes is good to use all the travel but if you want that linear feel stick with a coil. In most ebikes a coil is just a dowgrade, ... what we do? Jump to a higher spring rate? No.

Leverages are too soft they only work well on the top of range models that came with top of the range AIR shocks and some spacer.

Arr you sure pro riders use same linkages that the stock bikes? Do you think the 911 le mans car is the same that the one they sell to all people?

Listen, forget about all that; whatever is better or not more progressive or linear, I think is better to offer different linkages rather than fill with spacers in case you need/like it. Rocky Mountain allow to do it just by unscrew/rescrew the shock and trust me it’s not a engineering challenge.

You can overbleed brakes but trust me again it’s way better (and easier) to have a dial on your leverls to adjust it.

And I abide, leverages are on the very edge, you can’t say a bit more wouldnt be welcome ... what ebike are you riding Gary? I never asked tho ...

Check Out: Aftermarket Suspension Links to Customize Your Bike's Ride Characteristics - Pinkbike

World Cup racers are constantly trying new suspension links, and a cottage industry has sprung up around providing regular riders with custom links too.

www.pinkbike.com

 

[Gary]

Jump to a higher spring rate? No.

First of all. Yes.

Leverages are too soft

I realise English is not your first language but. a leverage isn't soft or hard. a low leverage rate needs a lower spring rate and a high leverage ratio needs a higher spring rate. Both for support and for bottom out resistance.

A very progressive leverage curve requires a lower spring rate and a less progressive curve would need an increased spring rate. continuing the need to be incrreased right down to a linear or even regressive spring curve. (luckily we don't see many of those anymore)

Please stop harping on about your Rocky Mountain as if it is the best Ebike on the planet and there's nothing else to compare to it. It's not. No bike is. Personal preference and rider style dictate how geometry and suspension will best suit each rider. And please stop slating the Levo just because the one you tried didn't suit you. A Levo wouldn't suit me well either but we're not all the same. thank fuck.
Also. Please stop trying to compare suspension kinematics to car engine power or hydraulic brake adjustments. it just makes you sound even less knowledgable. and that's me trying to be polite.

Alternative suspension links and yokes and even chainstays are not a new thing... aftermarket companies have been offering them for popular models for decades. Neither are adjustable rate frames. Choice is a good thing. It doesn't mean your choice is the ideal for anyone else though.

I actually find it pretty funny that from the leverage data in your stupid comparison chart and what you keep harping on about you'd deem my Emtb completely unrideable. When in actual fact it's an incredibly capable bike. Especially on DH and Enduro descents with jumps and drops. (2019 ESommet if you really need to know)

 

[Eddy Current]

You focus on a thing and goes holistic at all the rest

My Rocky is way ahead of most the game out there. That’s because they developed thinking about the riders not the fashioners. It’s ridiculously nimble (more than me speaking english) and they don’t have to paid tons of reviews to show it. The motor piss on all and the tuning of geo and suspenssion is something every bike must feature but they don’t to save 1£ per bike.

But back on topic. Those leverages are mild to said it gentle. I’m not expert ok, but i ride many ebikes from friends, most Levos Treks Focus etc and you can notice they are make leverages for all, from slow to fatties to oldies etc, and that’s because 90% of buyers are that. And that’s goes against true riders. If you’re happy with your crap leverage is because you know how to compensate it with skills or your trails suit well or just fill the shock with spacers. Numbers don’t lie.

I can imagine my friend Gary smoking a cigarette after other, huffing and taking his time before answer me again. I translate his messages to a imaginary voice and sounds as Tyson Fury answer his rivals (I know his accent is different than yours but get an idea)

TYSON FURY FOR UK PRESIDENT!!!

 

[CjP]

You should write to all these bike manufacturers about what you have discussed here.
I think you could really make a difference..

 

[Eddy Current]

You should write to all these bike manufacturers about what you have discussed here.
I think you could really make a difference..

Yeah, kind “I’m an angry consumer! You’re going to heard me!”

Listen, I can do an effort and understand major brands think about a wide range of users, but genuine enduro dna brands such commencal is something to worry about it. In the name of Jesus Andorra is near me and if a spend 8k in a ebike trusting the pedigree of a brand and then I found myself filling the shock with spacers to fix it ... I would register any single mtb Internet forum talking sheit if they don’t give my money back.

 

[Gary]

I just had a quick look for you Ed and the top 4 winningest EWS bikes of all time have progression percentages of 5% 10%, 24% and 30% respectively puting that unridable Levo you keep dissing slap bang in the middle of that range.
hopefully you'll at least now know you're talking shite.

Ps. my 170mm enduro mtb has 75% progression and is no faster downhill and no better for jumps or drops than my ESommet