2021 Trek Rail 7 - Brake Upgrade

[gilbertdave]

Hi all,

Hoping this isn’t a stupid question, but I want to upgrade the brakes on my Rail 7, 2021.
They have plenty of stopping power (I’m reasonably quick and fat, and they stop me fine) but it annoys the hell out of me that I can adjust the bite point on the levers. At least, if you can, I don’t know.
So firstly, can you? Is there some mystery method I don’t know about?

Then I just thought about buying some hope brakes (cos they’re shiny and I remember them from mountain biking the first time around), but I sort of resent spending £5K on a bike and immediately having to pay £400+ for the brakes.

So, can I just change the levers to another model that does have bite point adjustment? Can anyone steer me right?

I assume I need to choose levers that normally work with four pot callipers (as I have).

Any advice welcome.
Dave

 

[JMD]

Hi all,

Hoping this isn’t a stupid question, but I want to upgrade the brakes on my Rail 7, 2021.
They have plenty of stopping power (I’m reasonably quick and fat, and they stop me fine) but it annoys the hell out of me that I can adjust the bite point on the levers. At least, if you can, I don’t know.
So firstly, can you? Is there some mystery method I don’t know about?

View attachment 45133
Then I just thought about buying some hope brakes (cos they’re shiny and I remember them from mountain biking the first time around), but I sort of resent spending £5K on a bike and immediately having to pay £400+ for the brakes.

So, can I just change the levers to another model that does have bite point adjustment? Can anyone steer me right?

I assume I need to choose levers that normally work with four pot callipers (as I have).

Any advice welcome.
Dave

Shimano BL-M8100 XT Brake Lever

Buy Shimano BL-M8100 XT Brake Lever at Tweeks Cycles. Shop the biggest brands with confidence and enjoy rapid worldwide delivery & 365 day returns.

www.tweekscycles.com

 

[Jumbleross]

Yeah I’m having the same thoughts. The levers have reach adjustment by using the hex bolt but no bite adjustment. The thing you have to check is the brake hose compatibility. I did check on the Shimano site and it seems our brake callipers and hoses are not compatible with XT which have bite adjust :-( I have Hope M4’s on my regular bike and tbh I find the Shimano ones more powerful

 

[gilbertdave]

Glad it’s not just me... it’s seems a pretty stingy move on a mid range bike.

I’ve been riding with my buddy on his brand new Cube... whilst I love my bike and riding it is amazing, can’t help but be envious of the superior components on his bike, which was £1k cheaper ?

 

[John B]

Go for magura MT7 pros. There adjustable and 4 pot. The by far the most superior brakes I have used!

 

[Orangie]

Just put on Xt levers. I did

 

[Jumbleross]

Just put on Xt levers. I did

Did you have to change the brake hoses too?

 

[Orangie]

No. Same on that end. Caliper ended is different

 

[gilbertdave]

No. Same on that end. Caliper ended is different

Sorry... a further question, as I'm defo going to do this...

Does it matter which XT lever? I assume it matters if the XT lever is compatible with the 4 pot version, rather than the 2 pot version.

When I look on the Shimano site, its not very clear and casting my mind back to my fluid mechanics lectures is all a bit of blur!

 

[coregrind]

My experience with the pad contact/bite point adjustment on XT levers (M785, M8000 and M8120 brakesets) has always been disappointing since the change is so minimal. I'm a big fan of Magura brakes, specifically the MT7 Pro, that come with the BAT toolless adjustor. The BAT kit is also available separately for compatible levers that don't already have the feature.

 

[Stray cat]

And what about Saint levers? They are the most powerful ones.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

All Shimano levers you're likely to come across use a 10mm master cylinder bore. None of their levers are more powerful than the others, but the servowave ones are certainly a bigger PITA than the others, this is compounded by the useless bite point adjuster screw. Personally I think TREK did well speccing those brakes as they're arguably the most reliable. For more information than you could ever want google 'shigura' and 'frankenbrake'.

I had big problems with the bite point moving all over the place on my SLX 7120's, the only fix was swapping out the shimano fluid to putoline GPR6 fluid, The next step would have been swapping the whole lot to some MT5's, they're amazing brakes at any price point. You may not like the levers (which are easily swappable) but i find them quite comfy.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

I don't know much about different brakes but wanted to upgrade mine. We don't get magura over here so would the next step up be something like these? XT BR-M8120 4 Piston Front Disc Brake Trail BL-M8100 Right
The stock brakes are actually not bad apart from getting brake fade halfway down a long descent so I'm thinking only the front. Would a disc change be a better first step?

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I don't know much about different brakes but wanted to upgrade mine. We don't get magura over here so would the next step up be something like these? XT BR-M8120 4 Piston Front Disc Brake Trail BL-M8100 Right
The stock brakes are actually not bad apart from getting brake fade halfway down a long descent so I'm thinking only the front. Would a disc change be a better first step?

You won't find a massive difference in power. If fade is a problem check to see if you're running the stock Shimano resin pads, it'll be written on the back, if you are, swap to some good sintered pads. The next step is to go up a rotor size. I'm using MDR-P 220F & 200R and they're fantastic.

 

[Kernow]

If bite point is your problem , which can be a problem on all brakes especially 4 pots . Remove the caliper and squeeze the lever carefully until the pads move out a little then put it back on the disc /mount and just set as usual . You should have re set the pads closer to disc and improved the bite point . It can seem like it’s touching the disc too much but after a ride they normally bed in .

 

[Blue Moon]

Saints front and rear on my 7 now. Fabulous stopping power now for my large stature.

 

[folmonty]

Just picked up a new rail 7 yesterday and the brakes aren't going to cut it. Noticeably spongie feel, which may be nothing more than needing a bleed. Was wondering if mineral oil has more compression properties than dot 4 or 5 but since Shimano uses it in everything that probably isn't it. Just finished rebuilding a 12 year old EX7 with SRAM Avid Juicy 7's. The Jucy 7's feel worlds better at the lever. Have no idea on the trail since the rail is new, plus it has the 4 pot vs just two. I'm inclined to look at the XT's for replacing but really need to bleed these first to make sure it's not a simple fix before throwing money at it. All I know is that this bike is going to take some good brakes to haul it down. BTW - changing out to XT requires changing the hose and everything. Nothing looks compatible with the BR-M6120. Seems other find the levers are though?

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Just picked up a new rail 7 yesterday and the brakes aren't going to cut it. Noticeably spongie feel, which may be nothing more than needing a bleed. Was wondering if mineral oil has more compression properties than dot 4 or 5 but since Shimano uses it in everything that probably isn't it. Just finished rebuilding a 12 year old EX7 with SRAM Avid Juicy 7's. The Jucy 7's feel worlds better at the lever. Have no idea on the trail since the rail is new, plus it has the 4 pot vs just two. I'm inclined to look at the XT's for replacing but really need to bleed these first to make sure it's not a simple fix before throwing money at it. All I know is that this bike is going to take some good brakes to haul it down. BTW - changing out to XT requires changing the hose and everything. Nothing looks compatible with the BR-M6120. Seems other find the levers are though?

I've got the same brakes on my 9.8, was going to swap out to mt7's but figured I'd give them a chance. What I've done has changed them into epic stoppers.
Get rid of the Shimano mineral oil, swap it out to Putoline GPR6 2.5WT or redline like water, whatever is easier to get hold of for you.
Use a proper bleed cup.
Get some proper sintered pads, I went with EBC after a raft of shite pads from the regular discount pad suppliers.
Swapped out to MDRP 220/200 Rotors.

You will gain very little indeed by 'upgrading' to XT's

 

[folmonty]

I've got the same brakes on my 9.8, was going to swap out to mt7's but figured I'd give them a chance. What I've done has changed them into epic stoppers.
Get rid of the Shimano mineral oil, swap it out to Putoline GPR6 2.5WT or redline like water, whatever is easier to get hold of for you.
Use a proper bleed cup.
Get some proper sintered pads, I went with EBC after a raft of shite pads from the regular discount pad suppliers.
Swapped out to MDRP 220/200 Rotors.

You will gain very little indeed by 'upgrading' to XT's

Really appreciate your response @Slapbassmunky worked for a major brake manufacture before retiring and wondered about the use of mineral oil vs brake fluid? Compression and heat properties? Braking is mostly rated by BTU's or how much heat they generate. Everything you've said makes a lot of sense. Did you have to change the caliper mount for the larger rotors? EBC has been making pads for almost anything plus also have a good reputation in the moto industry. Are you getting much more noise from the sintered friction material? You've also illustrated that throwing money at changing parts isn't always the best thought process. Thank you!

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Really appreciate your response @Slapbassmunky worked for a major brake manufacture before retiring and wondered about the use of mineral oil vs brake fluid? Compression and heat properties? Braking is mostly rated by BTU's or how much heat they generate. Everything you've said makes a lot of sense. Did you have to change the caliper mount for the larger rotors? EBC has been making pads for almost anything plus also have a good reputation in the moto industry. Are you getting much more noise from the sintered friction material? You've also illustrated that throwing money at changing parts isn't always the best thought process. Thank you!

I honestly have no technical knowledge of dot VS mineral, however, the vi of Shimano fluid is very low, magura fluid is even worse. Even simple things, like idiots shaking the bottle before using fluid to bleed their brakes makes a massive difference. I've been on a search for years to find a solution to shimano's wandering bite point and have found the answer in the Putoline shock oil. So far the EBC pads have been amazing but like most (all?) sintered compounds they howl a bit in the wet until they warm up. You'll need an adapter to run the 220 up front.

I ran MT7's on my last DH bike and my fingers tell me the 7120s have just as much power now they've been fettled. Magura are still the kings of modulation mind you.

 

[folmonty]

Another thing worth mentioning - any new brake pad should be "bedded-in" by applying heat for a good number of easy brake cycles to finish curing the pads. The friction materials are a combination of things which are blended together and pressed into shape before being mounted on a backing plate. The final curing process takes place one heat is applied to the pad. If brakes are applied hard and fast before the pad is bedded-in the resins and friction bonding agents can come to the surface and form a glaze which reduces performance and pad life. Not sure if they put a notice in the box stating this but it's common in vehicle applications. I'm actually amazed at the ability of bicycle disk brakes and what they're capable of being so small in comparison.

 

[Philly G]

@Doug Stampfer Cycleways in Chch stock Maguras, including the rotors @Slapbassmunky recommended.

Brakes | Cycleways NZ

cycleways.co.nz

Wouldn't mind giving those rotors a try, I've always found the Shimanos too noisy. At present I'm running stock Shimano on the rear and Hope on the front ( taken off my accoustic MTB )

 

[RowanTheKiwi]

Look at what Mr Courier delivered for me today . I like buying local where I can but it was waaaaayyy cheaper getting these bad boys from Germany (bike24) - they had the MT7 brake/lever combo for around 155EUR each, and shipping for the lot to NZ was a respectable 20EUR.

They didn't have everything I needed in stock so got one of the discs local. This is probably my easter project to fit them.

The 220mm disc is yuge !

 

[RowanTheKiwi]

The hype is real guys.

More power and really impressive modulation compared to SLX + Metal pads.

Doing the bedding in was going 0-30-0 repeats as fast as I could.. after the first few was easily getting the rear end off the ground with 1 finger.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

I

The hype is real guys.

More power and really impressive modulation compared to SLX + Metal pads.

Doing the bedding in was going 0-30-0 repeats as fast as I could.. after the first few was easily getting the rear end off the ground with 1 finger.

View attachment 57405

Is that mulleted? Looks like you've spent a few hours in the workshop with that one. Points off though for not colour coordinating the Trek sticker with the ZEB. What is the rotor?

 

[RowanTheKiwi]

Hey @Doug Stampfer yeah gotta have a word to Trek on their colour designs. (Standard 9.8 colour scheme)

It's not mulleted, just camera angles. The Flites are 35mm wide so it all looks much more beefy than stock.

Went with a 220mm MDR-P rotor on front, I have the 200mm to fit on the rear. Going to ride for a few days before I pull it all to bits again.

Got a secus to fit as well...

 

[PetrD]

I dont think you need better brake hardware (for one percents better) on rail 7. I think the best is to buy metal ice tech pads and thats ok for heavy rider like me (280lbs).
And better braking needs good rims and tires. I have bontrager line pro 40 - it is hard carbon and the wide keeps better profile of tires under pressure (braking, cornering, jump finishing).
Possibility to switch saddle position for downhill is needed also, keep the center of gravity so low.

 

[Smittylube]

I just fitted the Zeb ultimate and it did not use the adapter for the 200mm rotor. I just ordered the 220 magura platter and I am hoping it will fit with the previous adapter the Yari came with. I’ll probably end up with a big one on the back when the mg45 comes back in stock.

 

[Smittylube]

but it annoys the hell out of me that I can adjust the bite point on the levers. At least, if you can, I don’t know.

BTW I know it's a late reply. Mine can be adjusted at the lever. just need an Allen wrench. Same brake lever.

 

[dixie600mhz]

Does anyone know the mount bracket part number that's needed for the Zeb in order to mount the front stock 9.8XT shimano caliper with the MDR-P 220mm rotor? I see the rotors are in stock but I'm confused about what bracket to buy for the zeb to get the spacing right.