STEPS E8000 Motor Service

[S13]

The end of the axle is chamfered, I think you mean there is a shoulder on the axle to stop the bearing being pushed on too far, and yes, in most cases you would be right. I am just trying to guess what is causing your gears to rub? I am guessing you did remember the spacer shim that's shown in the photo below?

View attachment 74981

I dont think this is a E8000 gear?
The black gear on my E8000 axle doesnt have a bearing, its just fixed in place (i assume pressed). And i never took it off anyway. Just removed the bearings on the end, and replaced with new bearings. There is no shim on that axle.

Imo the probable cause is still the huge amount of wobble and free play of the clutch gear. Because it is so loose it allows the gear to pivot on the axle. Enough to get it to collide with the other gear. Add in the sideways force from the helical tooth pattern and there is a recipe for disaster.

Sadly i cant measure the pivot range now (got the motor back on the bike) but from what i estimate its about 2-3mm at the teeth of the gear. That is a lot of free play if you ask me. Especially for a gear that only has about 1 or 2mm's before it collides with the other gear. Near the E-clip there is about ~0.4mm of clearance (also estimate, didnt have a feeler gauge with me), but that tiny amount of clearance translates to that that 2-3mm of pivoting range near the teeth of the gear. Too much if you ask me...

Oh and yes, i meant the word "shoulder" instead of chamfer. The shoulder is what i pressed the bearings up to. I would assume this is how its supposed to be done, right?

@Strindberg:
Ive posted the exact bearing puller i used with a link to buy it a couple of pages back. Im not gonna claim its ideal for the job though...

 

[S13]

I dont think this is a E8000 gear?
The black gear on my E8000 axle doesnt have a bearing, its just fixed in place (i assume pressed). And i never took it off anyway. Just removed the bearings on the end, and replaced with new bearings. There is no shim on that axle.

Its weird, im trying to reference other pictures to see what this gear looked like.
Im not sure, your picture looks kinda like a E8000 gear, but i dont recall there being any shim whatsoever?
Also yours seems to have some kind of black plastic axle? Or is that just optical illusion of the photo? It should be metal.
I dunno, it just looks different from what i remembered??

 

[S13]

So, looking at this, i assume that metal ring is on there:

Though i still cant remember that being a loose spacer. Seemed to be just part of the gear construction when i looked at it.
Anyway, doesnt seem like that is the problem. And even if i did forget it, it would make the issue of the grinding teeth better, not worse.

 

[Strindberg]

Bearing Puller on ebay

 

[Bearing Man]

So, looking at this, i assume that metal ring is on there:

Though i still cant remember that being a loose spacer. Seemed to be just part of the gear construction when i looked at it.
Anyway, doesnt seem like that is the problem. And even if i did forget it, it would make the issue of the grinding teeth better, not worse.

Yes, that is the E8000 gear in my photo, it has a thick shim under the bearing shown with your red arrow and another thinner shim under the steel gear when you remove the shaft going through the clutch bearing. It looks in your picture like there is no gap between your bearing ball bearing and your clutch bearing? It may just be the angle of your shot or it maybe the shim is missing? One thing is for sure, something is not right

 

[imax]

1. We can't offer a solution for the electrolysis corrosion of the power and controller plugs.

SERVISOL
A blend of non- CFC solvents and RF contact treatment oil. Ideal for cleaning and lubricating non- arcing contacts and mechanisms. Can be used for cleaning & lubricating all types of contacts. Safe on most plastics.

 

[S13]

Yes, that is the E8000 gear in my photo, it has a thick shim under the bearing shown with your red arrow and another thinner shim under the steel gear when you remove the shaft going through the clutch bearing. It looks in your picture like there is no gap between your bearing ball bearing and your clutch bearing? It may just be the angle of your shot or it maybe the shim is missing? One thing is for sure, something is not right

View attachment 75040

thank you for the picture.
I dont know, i dont remember a thick washer in that place, but i replaced that bearing half a year a go, so could very well be. I cant check it now because the motor is back on the bike. However, i usually work very clean and methodical, so the chance of missing a thick washer like that is small. However, next time when i have the motor open, i will make sure to check it!

Yes, the small ring-like shim inside the metal clutch bearing is in there.

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej @S13 and @Bearing Man and @joxelitor and @JimmyBoy

it is my turn to open the E8000,
because the crank had for me an increasing lateral noisy play like a metronome, from the left to the right side and vice versa,
after each upper dead point of the pedals.

Here is the left side. It looks not bad, if I can judge it well.

The main bearing of the crank has play, I can see, hear and feel it very surely with fingers.
I guess it will be the same on the other side.

The bearing has like a black bouillabesse.

Question 1 : how can I pull this tail out ?
Have I to unscrew this black castle nut, to do it ?

Question 2 to be sure: Is it possible to change the right main bearings of the crank, if I do not dismantle the clutch ?

The left main bearing has a play from about 0,5 millimeter !!!
It is only sealed on the inner side. I do not understand why Shimano used this cheap bearing.
To service my DU I have now only sealed bearings on both sides.

And yes, the grey ring under the main bearing is a big magnet.

 

[JimmyBoy]

See the earlier post in this thread.
I mentioned the black grease but it was suggested this was caused by water ingress but I am not convinced as it it is uni-formally coated over the rollers. Perhaps you could investigate. I used Park Tool HPG-1 High Performance Grease.

 

[S13]

Question 1 : how can I pull this tail out ?
Have I to unscrew this black castle nut, to do it ?

Question 2 to be sure: Is it possible to change the right main bearings of the crank, if I do not dismantle the clutch ?

Question 1:
You need to pull both short axles out at the same time (as a set). You dont have to unscrew anything else. Just wiggle the one on the right side of your photo, and at the same time pull it out with your hands. What helps is if you slightly force the crank axle a bit to the right upper side (this creates more room underneath). When you pull out the right side short axle, the left side automatically pops out with it.
After that you can remove the big plastic retainer with the 4 screws, remove some of the electronic connectors and pull the crank axle out.

Question 2:
Yes you can replace the bearings without ever touching the clutch.
Only if you want to replace that roller bearing underneath, you have to split the clutch on the crank axle (this almost happen automatically when you try to remove the crank axle, but dont worry about it. You can easily slide that clutch back together if needed) .

 

[Strindberg]

Thank you @JimmyBoy and @S13

I have now changed all ball bearings, but it was only necessary for the crank.

I have not seen another problem, all seems to be clean.

The clutch separated on its own... hum.

Case is closed and sealed.

The crank has no metronome play anymore and is quite,
and I do not hear anymore the cyclic "qwek-qwek" by pedaling.

The engine works fine, smooth, strong with Boost.
Not any problem with the clutch, no vibrations, nothing.

Nothing rubs, the engine does not heat up.

I have done about 10 kilometers in the night, no problem with the sensor.

Question: could the sensor get angry in a while and a few more kilometers, or is it definitively stable ?

 

[S13]

Good thing your noise issues are gone!
I wouldnt worry about the sensor. If it works fine now, it will probably be ok.

One thing though, you do not have to remove the circlip to remove the 2 short axles. When you remove the circlip, the motor clutch comes apart. Just leave the circlip in place, and pull both short axles out, like i said, by wobbling the axle with the motor clutch on it (the one that also has the circlip).

 

[Strindberg]

I replaced this too weak ring with a circlip.

Once opened, it never regains its shape properly to retain the chainring.

 

[S13]

Yes that large circlip seems to be a very loose fit.
I havent had any problems however reusing it over and over again. Apparently it doesnt have to be tight in order to function properly.
Replacing it couldnt harm though.

 

[JimmyBoy]

Well done Strindberg.

When I dismantled my motor it was in pretty good shape and only showed signs of minor water ingress into the needle roller bearing area which was caused by water getting past the seal between the drive shaft and the chainring shaft so I have now packed bearing protection grease or Motorex behind the locking ring and large circlip which becomes slack on removal and requires a few taps with mallet to close it up again. I think the purpose of the big ring is to provide a large surface area to give some splash protection especially if packed with grease as I did.
See my post.
Which is the sensor you were worried about?

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej friends,

Today I added 36 more kilometers, but for this test phase only on the flat landscape in the Thalweg along the River Rhine on the french side.
Arctic geese were happy to see me again and asked me when I come back to Lapland.

I had now a second normal drive, a trip like ever, but now with a silent crank
after having passed the two upper dead points on each revolution.

May be, I am a lucky guy, but the torque sensor seems not to be bothered after my radical intervention.

I drove also up with Boost from my underground garage without troubles.
--

If I could summarize, in my case as a macadam traveler, only the left smaller ball bearing of the crank needed to be changed.
Not to bad after 17507 kilometers with this 3rd Engine since the 22. December 2019.
But the crank has been sick since the last January and the dealer bike-sky in Berghaupten, Black Forest, laughed at me since this time.
The same since 2 years with my three very poor accus BT-E8010, now each with 86% after 69 (and not 60% after 1000)

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej,

today I made 61 more kilometers,
also with some short hill climbings with Boost or with my all-the-time-modus Eco High.
And today more away from my home.

DU E8000 has performed flawlessly, thus no complaints.
Trial High is also pretty like before.

I would pretend that I feel a little bit more power and velocity than before ?
My feeling could join the observation of @joxelitor
and the noisy cyclic "qwek-qwek" with metronome effect before engine maintenance
could have been a friction and an internal brake of the mechanics ?
But before or after maintenance the engine case remained and remains cold.

My consumption today was >>> 5,1 Wh / km after having cut 13% because of the efficiency of the loader.
A good level bei 7° outside temperature.

----------------------

I made the checkup with Shimano eBike Connect with my smartphone AND with my laptop.

You see, all is normal,
and by the both crank tests step 3/5 and 4/5 >>> "Une défaillance n'a pu être trouvée = no fault could be found".

------------

In a couple of days I shall make a drive in the mountains, the Vosges by us in Alsace, France, or the Black Forest in Germany,
but I am more and more confident.

Since maintenance I made now all together 107 km.
Now I shall undertake again like ever my day trips between 130 and 197 km,
also to improve the... grease.

Thank you
to @joxelitor and @S13 and @Phil_st and @JimmyBoy and @Bearing Man and @Rob Rides EMTB and @PoppyRex
for the good explanations and helps and the forum.


Have a nice day around the planet.

pix: Strasbourg

 

[Strindberg]

Today +78 km with 4,9 Wh pro Kilometer and lights in the fog (Supernova M99)

/ Since maintenance 185 km.

pix: Obernai and Lipsheim, Alsace

 

[Strindberg]

Today I made 94.2 km, only Boost High with stop and go in the city and 902 meters + in the mountains.
Engine stays cold.

Since Maintenance Day 279 km, only since last Monday but we have winter with 4° like today.

Someone from the German forum replied me
that eTube Project with the PC is not able to recognize torque sensor errors anyway,
and that if it shows "normal" everywhere, that doesn't mean anything yet.

So why have we steps 3/5 and 4/5 of the engine torque test with the crankset?

 

[S13]

Why are you so worried about the torque sensor? It works, right?

 

[JimmyBoy]

Not sure where this scare story about sensors comes from but I don’t think we have anything to worry about.
I think the PCB on the clutch is a spinning strain gauge unit which transmits the torque wirelessly to the PCB with pink wires below the white plastic carrier and the grey magnet drives a cadence/pedal position hall sensor attached to the PCB with white wires connecting it to the main PCB.
The electronics which do this kind of sensing usually have a microprocessor IC which has the ability to store calibration data and these IC’s, with the calibration data, will be fixed on those PCB’s.
OK, in production Shimano have a specialist rig to do the calibration of the strain gauge pair and the Hall sensor with its associated magnet but as long as we just lift out the torque sensor unit with its magnet and the associated electronic boards and replace them as they were, there can’t be a need for re-calibration.

See my earlier post1 post2.

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej,

since 12 Days after my complete servicing of my E8000 I made 503 kilometers without any troubles.

I made all what we can do with a semi-eMTB pedelec: hills with 18/21%, eMTB through the mud in the forest, wild stop&go in the city.
All is well.

(But after the 5th Covid-Wave I shall have a new E8000 for my next arctic expedition or a pedelec with Bosch and professional servicing.)

 

[joxelitor]

Today I made 94.2 km, only Boost High with stop and go in the city and 902 meters + in the mountains.
Engine stays cold.

Since Maintenance Day 279 km, only since last Monday but we have winter with 4° like today.

Someone from the German forum replied me
that eTube Project with the PC is not able to recognize torque sensor errors anyway,
and that if it shows "normal" everywhere, that doesn't mean anything yet.

So why have we steps 3/5 and 4/5 of the engine torque test with the crankset?

View attachment 76489

Mine is 1200Km after service, no problems
Mixed use, MTB, enduro, road, no complaints from the torque sensor

 

[Spiff]

My E8000 is running strong so I have not had the need to open it to replace the bearings or whatever, but this thread is very interesting and I am following it just in case I have to open my motor. While reading the thread I am trying to understand how the motor works and I have put together some information about the sensor system that may be useful to others so I am posting it here. But take into account that I am compilating the information written by other forum members, so they are the ones to be thanked for (S13, Smokeybear, Bearingman, mikeaxle, jimmyboy, joxelitor, Strindberg and many others), but I am the one to be blamed.

The assumptions below may be wrong, so any further data or information would be welcome. If somebody has good quality pictures of the PCBs where the Integrated Circuits references are visible as this will help to find its function.

EXPLANATION OF CADENCE AND TORQUE SENSORS

In attached picture you can see the components that make up the sensor system:

Cadence sensor:

• There is a gray circular magnet on the Crankshaft.
• In the motor housing there is a green circular Printed Circuit that does not rotate, in this PCB (Printed Circuit Board) it is mounted the Hall Effect Sensor which is the one that detects the gray magnet and that when the Crankshaft rotates measures the cadence and also the position of the cranks. It is necessary to measure the position of the cranks because during motor operation the power is modulated according to it. This circular PCB is fixed to motor housing and is connected by cables to the motor Main PCB. (Notice that this circular PCB also has the Radio Receiver for the Torque Sensor).
• If the gray magnet is disassembled, it is important to reassemble it in the same position and orientation as it was originally, otherwise, the crank position measurements will be wrong.

Torque Sensor:

• The cyclist exerts a force and a torque while pedaling , and this torque is received by the Crankshaft and it deforms very slightly and proportionally to the torque exerted by the rider.
• To measure this deformation of the Crankshaft there are two "Strain Gauge" sensors glued to it with putty and these sensors generate an electric current proportional to the deformation of the Crankshaft and therefore to the torque exerted by the rider.
• These two torque sensors are connected to circular PCB that is attached to the Crankshaft and rotates together with it, its function is to digitalize the sensor output and transmit wirelessly the digital data (It could be NFC or similar).
• The Torque sensor data is transmitted to the circular PCB connected by cables to the motor Main PCB, and this circular PCB includes the functions: Radio Receiver for the Torque Sensors data, Coils in PCB copper tracks to power the rotating Torque sensor PCB, Hall Effect sensor for the Cadence Sensor Magnet
• It is assumed that during the engine manufacturing process, Shimano calibrates the torque sensors and stores the calibration values in processor memory on the motor Main PCB.
• If the above is true, this implies that in the case of wanting to fix an engine with parts from another "donor" engine, it is not possible to "transplant" the Crankshaft with attached Torque Sensors because the calibration data stored in Motor Main PCB would not match the new sensors. It would be necessary to transplant both, the Crankshaft with Torque Sensors and Main PCB.

Accelerometer:

• Near the circular Printed Circuit there is another small Printed Circuit with white wires, its function is to mount a digital accelerometer that measures the inclination of the eBike.

 

[Strindberg]

Congrats for your compilation @Spiff !

Since servicing I made 581 km with my Husqvarna and his refurbished E8000 without any troubles.
(17.423 km before servicing)

-----------------------

As a reminder, it was also quite easy during my renovation work to remove the bigger right ball bearing of the crank...
first by gently pressing it out with a small screwdriver on this gray magnet all around it.
Because I had not enough space to put the puller between the grey magnet and the ball bearing.
Apparently I had not disturbed the calibration of the torque sensor. A wonder? Or am I only a lucky guy?

 

[Strindberg]

 

[JimmyBoy]

• Near the circular Printed Circuit there is another small Printed Circuit with white wires, its function is to mount a digital accelerometer that measures the inclination of the eBike.

View attachment 77251

Hi Spiff, what makes you come to that conclusion?

 

[Spiff]

Hi Spiff, what makes you come to that conclusion?

This was posted in a spanish forum, but not confirmed. To confirm this it would be enough to have close up picture of this PCB where the text reference in the black Integrated Circuits can be read, but I do not have it.

 

[Strindberg]

Hej Hej @Spiff

the german pope of STePS Tuning alias @ PeterMayer / pedelecforum.de from



is to busy with all his activities as an engineer, designer and inventor to give here any answer,
that's why he asked me to do it for him with his own explanations and pix.

I know him personnaly since 2 years because he particularly appreciates my arctic bio-bike expeditions (13,000 km around the Arctic Circle)
but I have never tuned my Husqvarna and I don't need it at all.

As a matter of fact no shimano dealer or pedelec-builder
seems to be able to set the actual wheel circumference to the nearest centimeter !
For example my wheel had 3000 mm instead of 2145 and the engine cuts much earlier before 25 km / h.
That's why I used his App, and each time when I fit tyres from other brands.

---------------------

Yes @Spiff it is a gravity sensor.
This IC is custom made by AMS for Shimano like all the others used by this corporate for the STePS,
that's why you cannot find anything on the web about it.

-------------------------

With @PeterMayer's App you can also set the DU inclination if it is not horizontal in the frame.
It should have sense for the walk assist. But we all know that walk assist by Shimano is quite like a kind of fake...
it is very random and depends on your last lunch.

Now let us have another drive beside the river Rhine and under heavy washers all the day to improve my E8000 servicing.

-------------
Edit 4 XII 21 at 18:52: I made today 89 km or 670 since Engine renovation in 2 weeks

 

[JimmyBoy]

Hi Stindberg, do you have a high resolution picture of the whole motor PCB? My pictures are all low resolution.