Shimano patents new gearbox drivetrain for MTB

[R120]

Very interesting

Shimano Gearbox in the Works - Patents Filed on Hybrid Chain-driven Sequential-Shift Transmission - Pinkbike

 

[Gary]

Interesting for sure.

But... #22, #31 & # 39 ?

From a company with the reputation Shimano has with sealed bearing longevity/durability? (and I'm not just talking about their Ebike motor bearings)

er... no thanks

But then I also don't have the difficulties so many seem to have with derailleurs

Patent is (intentionally) vague so I doubt it's all that close to production. More of a territory (pre)marking exercise at this point? Shimano have many patents that never make it to production at all.

 

[DrStupid]

Interesting for sure.

But... #22, #31 & # 39 ?

From a company with the reputation Shimano has with sealed bearing longevity/durability? (and I'm not just talking about their Ebike motor bearings)

er... no thanks

But then I also don't have the difficulties so many seem to have with derailleurs

Patent is (intentionally) vague so I doubt it's all that close to production. More of a territory (pre)marking exercise at this point? Shimano have many patents that never make it to production at all.

Who, me?
My new 10 speed has survived 3 rides!

 

[wepn]

Interesting for sure.

But... #22, #31 & # 39 ?

From a company with the reputation Shimano has with sealed bearing longevity/durability? (and I'm not just talking about their Ebike motor bearings)

er... no thanks

But then I also don't have the difficulties so many seem to have with derailleurs

Patent is (intentionally) vague so I doubt it's all that close to production. More of a territory (pre)marking exercise at this point? Shimano have many patents that never make it to production at all.

Extremely interesting to me not specifically that particular one but manufacturers’ increasing recognition that a derailleur is not the best device to put 100 Nm through on a $15K bike or any bike. Profit margin is one thing but return customers are way more important. Nobody not even people used to carbon road bikes really want to shell out hundreds on new drivetrain bits every few months.

Now put the drive and gears all together in a durable yet still lightweight form - a $15K bike makes slightly more sense.
So many gearbox drives about to appear and that means fantastic new bikes and I believe some of them will even be priced for mass market disruption.

 

[ottoshape]

Gearbox is in the wrong location...

 

[Gary]

manufacturers’ increasing recognition that a derailleur is not the best device to put 100 Nm through

100NM doesn't go through the derrailleur. Forces through the derrailleur are tiny and don't change with the addition of a motor. Pedalling torque (power) doesn't go through the derrailleur but through the (upper) chain, cassette sprockets, chainring and freewheel mechainsm(s).
This wonderous gear box still has all of those components taking the torque.

The derrailleur only tensions the (unloaded) lower portion of chain and guides the chain to the correct gear. They're pretty simple and fairly fool mechanisms proof if you have the nouse to set them up properly and visual spacial skills not to smash them into/through obsticles.

I'm yet to see a gearbox design that doesn't cause more drag than a derrailleur system. This (vague as it is) seems no different in that respect.

Nobody not even people used to carbon road bikes really want to shell out hundreds on new drivetrain bits every few months.

Sorry. But what are you even talking about now?
I have a carbon road bike. My (105/ultegra) drivetrain generally lasts a good 3000miles... 3000miles in just a few months would mean riding around 50 miles a day every day. perfectly possible to do. but not many carbon roadbike owners will do anywhere near that sort of mileage in such a short time. Derrailleurs will last many tens of thousands of miles with nothing more than basic maintenance and new jockey wheels from time to time.

Do you somehow think the components inside Shimano's box won't wear?

This brings me to another interesting query. Will the gear box be user servicable when it's internal components wear? or will Shimano specify warranty void if opened and that it has to be sent back to distributor for "assessment" and replacement in the same laboriously time consuming way a faulty/worn STEPs motor does when it wears?

 

[wepn]

100NM doesn't go through the derrailleur. Forces through the derrailleur are tiny. Pedalling torque (power) doesn't go through the derrailleur but trhough the (upper) chain, cassette sprockets, chainring and freewheel mechainsm(s).
This wonderous gear box still has all of those components taking the torque.

The derrailleur only tensions the (unloaded) lower portion of chain and guides the chain to the correct gear. They're pretty simple and fairly fool mechanisms proof if you have the nouse to set them up properly and visual spacial skills not to smash them into/through obsticles.

I'm yet to see a gearbox design that doesn't cause more drag than a derrailleur system. This (vague as it is) seems no different in that respect.


Sorry. But what are you even talking about now?
I have a carbon road bike. My (105/ultegra) drivetrain generally lasts a good 3000miles... 3000miles in just a few months would mean riding around 50 miles a day every day. perfectly possible to do. but not many carbon roadbike owners will do anywhere near that sort of mileage in such a short time. Derrailleurs will last many tens of thousands of miles with nothing more than basic maintenance and new jockey wheels from time to time.

Do you somehow think the components inside Shimano's box won't wear?

This brings me to another interesting query. Will the gear box be user servicable when it's internal components wear? or will Shimano specify warranty void if opened and that it has to be sent back to distributor for "assessment" and replacement in the same laboriously time consuming way a faulty/worn STEPs motor does when it wears?

Gary, you sound like an engineer and a very experienced rider of high powered gearbox bikes. Very interesting points to address but it’s late here.

Which gearbox bikes have you ridden?
Also with regards to the comment about carbon road bikes and replacing bits, that was attempted hyperbole but that obviously didn’t work.

 

[Gary]

Which gearbox bikes have you ridden?

Pretty much all of the major rear hub gearboxes over the years at some point, quite a few frame mounted hub based gearboxes and a fair few proper integrated frame gearboxes (mainly Nicolais and Zerodes)

I'm not an engineer at all. Infact I'm pretty much uneducated. I just have a hell of a lot of experience riding and repairing bicycles and a fairly high quota of common sense.

 

[Slowroller]

So now we get to replace 2 cassettes each time? Awesome!

 

[DrStupid]

Gearbox is in the wrong location...

Yes... wheres the motor go? This whole thing only makes sense if there is a motor. else... why waste your time. The ethereal derailleur works perfectly for traditional bike use.

 

[Gary]

The ethereal derailleur works perfectly for traditional and E mountain bike use.

FTFY

 

[DrStupid]

FTFY

Buy traditional I actually mean those who ride their bikes on trails, electric or otherwise. I typically run behind mine or drag.it around.

 

[Gary]

TBF you probably would save yourself a lot of grief and money if you took up electric wheelbarrowing

 

[Zimmerframe]

Not such a bad idea ..

 

[wepn]

Pretty much all of the major rear hub gearboxes over the years at some point, quite a few frame mounted hub based gearboxes and a fair few proper integrated frame gearboxes (mainly Nicolais and Zerodes)

I'm not an engineer at all. Infact I'm pretty much uneducated. I just have a hell of a lot of experience riding and repairing bicycles and a fairly high quota of common sense.

You sound very educated to me.

To be more specific, what I was referring to with the derailleur was not its lack of sturdiness but the sideways shifting action on the chainline. At high levels of torque in Brose, TQ, Sachs, Revonte, Bafang, etc that is not ideal. Compare that to a chainline that does not shift or twist across a wide range of gears with high torsional forces.

I’ve been fortunate to have been flying around here for years on a bunch, Rohloffs, a Schlumpf, a Suntour VBOXX & Shimano Alfine. Common to all - a straight non shifting chainline, very high mileage and zero maintenance. That is zero on bikes that have done hundreds of thousands of kilometres.

So compared to derailleur bikes and I still have a few, well there is no comparison. Much lower mileage, constant adjustments, chain wear & regular drivetrain replacement, Have you ever dropped a chain at maximum speed? Have you ever had the chain then lodge itself in between your spokes & swingarm causing sudden metal on metal crunching & braking and stack? Maybe not I guess but I have and not a great experience. How about a bent & smashed derailleur 30 km from home? I could go on.

By all means stick with what you know but open your mind to what’s coming. I have a feeling you’ll be changing your opinion slightly when you get onboard & go for a spin.

 

[Gary]

. MIbbies aye, mibbies naw

We don't really know what's actually coming (yet)

 

[wepn]

Aye.

 

[DrStupid]

No room for motor?

 

[ottoshape]

Yes... wheres the motor go? This whole thing only makes sense if there is a motor. else... why waste your time.

Another issue I see is putting weight higher up in the frame. Race motorcycles have always chased a lower CoG. It won't take much for bicycles to lose it and destroy our ability to change direction/fling the bike about.

 

[wepn]

No room for motor?
View attachment 21899

There's room in this one so it's quite possible even likely Shimano can find the room too.

 

[DrStupid]

There's room in this one so it's quite possible even likely Shimano can find the room too.

I'm on the mailing list for revonte... it's been pretty quiet lately.

 

[wepn]

I'm on the mailing list for revonte... it's been pretty quiet lately.

Revonte work quietly which is a good sign for their motors They now have a partnership with BMZ who in turn have a partnership with Brose. Lots of synergies by the sound of it.

 

[Rusty]

Not such a bad idea ..

Or this?

 

[Rusty]

Or we have the guy that built my pipes ...