Speedbox. With Bosch performance CX with a kiox display

sharkimano

New Member
Apr 15, 2024
9
7
Turkey
I was not using the flow app. So its nothing todo with the Flow App or GPS. The bosch motor software detects the speedbox on its own.
Well, this is a mystery to me. How does it determine speed if the data from speed sensor is indicating a slow speed (vs real speed.) It does not have (?) its own GPS. May be comparing pedal power vs reported speed ?
The other mystery for me is why do I have to let it count down before turning motor off in case of Speedbox ? The speed indicator on the Kiox goes all over the place when stopped...
Anyway I hope someone can shed a light on this...
 

Eagleboy64

New Member
Oct 16, 2023
15
6
Christchurch, New Zealand
Well, this is a mystery to me. How does it determine speed if the data from speed sensor is indicating a slow speed (vs real speed.) It does not have (?) its own GPS. May be comparing pedal power vs reported speed ?
The other mystery for me is why do I have to let it count down before turning motor off in case of Speedbox ? The speed indicator on the Kiox goes all over the place when stopped...
Anyway I hope someone can shed a light on this...
The only place ì imagine you could even hope to get answers to those questions are the people who write the code for speedbox.
 

GlenMcD

New Member
Mar 21, 2024
9
7
Ipswich, QLD Australia
The only place ì imagine you could even hope to get answers to those questions are the people who write the code for speedbox.
This is an easy one, note I'm retired embedded software engineer. The CX engine electronics has access to the output from the speedbox, but it also has access to pedal movement (cadence). The relationship between these is also reliant on choice of gear, however gears don't have unlimited range and have particular ratios, unlike a CVT. Also it needs to be noted that it's possible to move the pedals at a cadence that doesn't actually provide any effective torque, in fact you may hold pedals still at times and bike may still accelerate, if going down hill, with strong wind etc. All that said, there is obviously scope for the logic with the CX motor to determine whether there are strong indicators that a tuning device is being used. The evidence for this could become stronger as your speed gets higher and how long you maintain high speeds gets longer. While the amount of assistance to maintain 24.9KPH for 1KM may be fairly high if going up a very long uphill, if assistance is demanded continuously over say 5KM at supposedly just 24.9KM, it obviously is a good indicator that a tuning device may be in use. Just the fact that bike NEVER goes over 24.9KPH (but it used to) is yet another indicator. Personally, I don't have slush funds to test this out for myself, and can't wait until sane laws that allow reasonable speeds (32KPH to 40KPH range) come into Australia and hopefully other countries. My old ebike wasn't limited, was only 200 watts and was far less frustrating that this new one in some ways. I averaged 25KPH to 30KPH on old.
 

sharkimano

New Member
Apr 15, 2024
9
7
Turkey
This is an easy one, note I'm retired embedded software engineer. The CX engine electronics has access to the output from the speedbox, but it also has access to pedal movement (cadence). The relationship between these is also reliant on choice of gear, however gears don't have unlimited range and have particular ratios, unlike a CVT. Also it needs to be noted that it's possible to move the pedals at a cadence that doesn't actually provide any effective torque, in fact you may hold pedals still at times and bike may still accelerate, if going down hill, with strong wind etc. All that said, there is obviously scope for the logic with the CX motor to determine whether there are strong indicators that a tuning device is being used. The evidence for this could become stronger as your speed gets higher and how long you maintain high speeds gets longer. While the amount of assistance to maintain 24.9KPH for 1KM may be fairly high if going up a very long uphill, if assistance is demanded continuously over say 5KM at supposedly just 24.9KM, it obviously is a good indicator that a tuning device may be in use. Just the fact that bike NEVER goes over 24.9KPH (but it used to) is yet another indicator. Personally, I don't have slush funds to test this out for myself, and can't wait until sane laws that allow reasonable speeds (32KPH to 40KPH range) come into Australia and hopefully other countries. My old ebike wasn't limited, was only 200 watts and was far less frustrating that this new one in some ways. I averaged 25KPH to 30KPH on old.
I think you are on the right track to solve this mystery to me. As a side note this 25km limit in Europe is absolutely bonkers ! You can exceed this in just a couple of pedal strokes in a flat. The other frustrating part of this jockeying between riders and Bosch, why does Bosch do everything they can to prevent us riding like we want. They follow the law and they should just shut up and let others break it on their own terms. Why torture us with all these error codes and limp modes !
 

arTNC

Member
Feb 1, 2024
130
183
Texas
I think you are on the right track to solve this mystery to me. As a side note this 25km limit in Europe is absolutely bonkers ! You can exceed this in just a couple of pedal strokes in a flat. The other frustrating part of this jockeying between riders and Bosch, why does Bosch do everything they can to prevent us riding like we want. They follow the law and they should just shut up and let others break it on their own terms. Why torture us with all these error codes and limp modes !
Well I certainly agree with you about the silly cap on speed limits on our emtb's. I don't ride on pavement and city streets. And in the off road environment, the 15 or so mph limit is absolutely ridiculous. Even at my age I can often exceed that on my pedal only bike in many places on a trail. The local trails in my area don't prohibit emtb's, and I ride a lot of places where we can also ride dirt motorcycles. I'm not talking about hooligan behavior. I'm talking about slightly upping the speed limit in reasonable conditions.

I was fortunate in that I got a Gen II Trek Rail that uses the Purion display that easily allowed a VOLspeed derestrictor. I set it at 25.4 mph and haven't touched it since. I almost never achieve that speed on an actual trail except in a few longer, straight downhills. Most everywhere I ride there are enough technical elements even in the downhills that you don't want to go full tilt on. There are a few younger riders who can go faster overall on a lap than I can on my Rail, so we're not talking about running over children on their mtb's.

I know lots of people are ga-ga over the smart systems and other cool do-dads on the newer displays and software, but I have found my simple display and software to be a set-and-forget setup. When brand new, I got one of the guys in the shop to allow all maximums in the Bosch software on my Rail, and then I plugged in the VOLspeed unit and haven't had an issue. Of course VOLspeed claims their unit won't work with the Bosch smart system, and I guess Bosch has made some intentional or accidental effort with their smart system to thwart or at least make derestriction difficult.

That's a shame. 25.4 mph is not a death defying, dangerous limit to be allowed on an emtb. And let's be honest, the extreme high speed claimed by Speedbox isn't really applicable to the off road needs of an emtb. I think VOLspeed was wise not to allow anything higher than 45 km/hr, 28 mph. I would hope Speedbox and VOLspeed can ultimately defeat the software issues in some of these newer motors, displays, and software.
 

EMTB Forums

Since 2018

The World's largest electric mountain bike community.

524K
Messages
25,906
Members
Join Our Community

Latest articles


Top