Would I notice the difference ??

[Cb750stu]

Hi folks looking for a new emtb , I'm used to the Bosch system and never ridden a Shimano powered bike so would I notice the difference ??

Regards

 

[Doomanic]

Yes. Next question.

 

[Cb750stu]

Yes. Next question.

Dramatically ??

 

[Doomanic]

Gen 2 or Gen 4 Bosch?

 

[Gary]

Dramatically ??

Yes. But possibly a dramatic change more to more your liking.
Less likely if you've been riding bosch for a while and don't ride normal bikes any more though.

 

[Eddy Current]

Shimano is more natural but less powerful, it requires more of you. For fireroads I prefer the Bosch, for technical climbing the Shimano. We can summarize the question this way.

 

[dropbear14]

I've ridden both a bit, and contrary to what the last person said I believe that the Bosch motor feels more natural in the way that the power engages and disengages compared to the Shimano. The Bosch is also more durable and less prone to water ingress and other faults. Also it's Bosch so.... I know mountain bikers all love their Shimano products, but electric motors are a bit of a different game compared to conventional bicycle components, and Bosch is leaps and bounds ahead of Shimano in this field because they've been making e-bike motors longer, and also from their long history with other appliances and power tools, etc

 

[Eddy Current]

The Bosch ramps up more smoothly but if you stop pedaling it keeps pushing (overrun)

Overrun is not bad or good, you need to learn to handle it, but isn’t natural at all. Shimano disengages instantly

No idea about the other subjects I ride a Dyname wich heavy-rain piss in all motors when it comes to technical stuff.

 

[The Hodge]

The Bosch ramps up more smoothly but if you stop pedaling it keeps pushing (overrun)

Only in emtb mode...
"the eMTB mode recognises steps and obstacles, providing a powerful push and sustained support to get you over them."

 

[Cb750stu]

Gen 2 or Gen 4 Bosch?

Gen 4

 

[Gary]

Shimano disengages instantly

No it doesn't.
Shimano also has over run. But it tapers off more quickly/naturally

 

[Gary]

I believe that the Bosch motor feels more natural in the way that the power engages and disengages compared to the Shimano

How often do you still ride normal bikes?
Most riders who switch to riding Emtb forget what a natural pedal bike actually rides like quite quickly.
the Bosch has more power, more torque, greater over run and less taper which are all traits that take it further away from mimicking how a normal bike works.
I'm not sure what your definition of more "natural" is but mine is simply feeling closer to a normal bike

 

[Kernow]

Having owned shimano e8000 for 3 years and now the latest bosch for the last year , the best thing is the battery life , the bosch is good for almost twice the distance Yes it has a bigger battery but The emtb light mode gives you all the power you need even for tough climbs , and hits that sweet spot for power to distance . whereas the shimano had you shifting from eco to trail which was often too big a step up and used the battery faster.

Actual pedaling power smoothness is great on both motors , the Bosch has the advantage of that variable power in the two emtb modes which can be useful.

What Gary is describing is true of the two higher power modes but the lower modes especially eco are very natural , the eco is less powerful compared to the eco on shimano ,another great factor for increasing battery life in long rides especially when with fitter riders in normal bikes.

Bosch is quieter , not ridden the latest shimano so can’t comment on that .

My advice if you have the budget buy the Bosch , if you don’t shimano is still very good

 

[stiv674]

The Bosch is nowhere near as natural feeling as the Shimano E8000 in my opinion, it surges from the slightest pedal movement which isn't natural at all.

It is more powerful though, and quieter if that matters. The battery range is similar, taking the extra power in to account, wish I had more control over the assistance levels though.

As with the E8000, there's things I like and things I dislike with the Bosch, but it's different, which I'm enjoying at the moment.

 

[lightning]

l've ridden both and would happily have either.
My bike is a Kona with the Shimano E8000 and my friend has the latest Cube with the Gen 4 Bosch.

The Bosch is definitely more powerful but that doesn't bother me because l don't use the full power of my E8000, l like to put some effort in!

The Gen 4 Bosch feels like an evolution of my Shimano, better in every way but not so much that l feel the need to upgrade.
Any new Shimano equipped bike will have the later Shimano EP8 which is probably closer to the Bosch in general performance.

But as l said, l love my Kona with the E8000 motor and have no plans to change it.

 

[Peaky Rider]

I have both Gen 4 and E8000 powered bikes, but no EP8, although I believe the Shimano motors share similar charactaristics, the EP8 having just a bit more power. I wouldn't say I'm disappointed with the Bosch motor, but after two months I am still waiting for the much vaunted 'rollover' characteristic to show itself as I haven't yet noticed it kicking in. I do notice the 'punch', as Rob describes it in his videos, (to me it feels more like a surge} as you first start off but I personally find this a bit strange. I also find that the power of the Gen 4 can make you a bit lazy, it certainly has my mate on his Forme Black Rocks.

My experience has led me to think that, if you are a bit on the chunky side and a little lacking in stamina and fitness or are the sort of rider who must get to the top of the hill first, then the Gen 4 might suit you best. If you prefer a smooth flowing ride, then you'll be more than happy with the Shimano.

Again, as Rob (he's my hero) says in his videos, don't let your choice of motor dictate your choice of bike. Personally, I always go for colour first.

 

[dropbear14]

How often do you still ride normal bikes?
Most riders who switch to riding Emtb forget what a natural pedal bike actually rides like quite quickly.
the Bosch has more power, more torque, greater over run and less taper which are all traits that take it further away from mimicking how a normal bike works.
I'm not sure what your definition of more "natural" is but mine is simply feeling closer to a normal bike

Ok what I was referring to mostly is that when the Shimano motors disengage it's a real mechanical klunk feeling, compared to the Bosch which even despite the over run, it's a much smoother disengage. Same goes for the initial engagement but to a much lesser extent, ie not so much of a "klunk". On some of the EP8's with higher km's, the disengage becomes so obvious that it even gives an uneasy feeling in the bike as if the frame is twisting at the bottom bracket point (not to be mistaken with worn linkage bearings or worn pivot bushings either, because those issues can cause a similar feeling).

 

[steve_sordy]

According to the hill climb test that Rob did, the Shimano EP8 has less low rev torque than the Bosch, despite having the same max torque. As an EP8 owner, for me this translates to a failure to climb a certain short steep feature near me. I can get almost to the top, but then I'm going so slowly that the reduced torque means that I stall. Younger and fitter people can get up that climb (as I used to do on a manual mtb, seven years ago).

But in defence of the Shimano motors. The e8000 I used to have and the EP8 I have now were/is very smooth indeed and very natural feeling. Coming from an mtb, when I was testing lots of different bike/motor combos, the Focus Jam2 with the e8000 was the first one that just felt like me on a good day riding a mountain bike. I forgot I was on a pedal assist bike and just had a bloody good ride. So I bought it. All the others felt artificial. My second emtb, the Merida eOne-Sixty with the EP8 m otor is in the same vein but with 22% more torque and more tuning options (that you will love!).

By the way, the EP8 motor is quieter, lighter, smaller and with less internal friction than the e8000. But when you are not pedalling and the top chain is slack, there is a component inside the motor that can rattle (the freewheel I think). Some say "rattle", I say "click". It drives some to distraction, I very rarely hear it and no longer notice it. If I listen out for it on a smooth trail, I can hear the click. But if it's a noisy trail then I can't hear it because it is drowned out by the trail noise.

 

[Cb750stu]

Thanks folks much appreciated for all the info , I'm definitely not as fit as I used to be , lots of surgical metal in both legs and a bit of arthritis but nothing too major

I use tour mode a lot of the time and turbo for steep stuff never really use emtb ,

I've now sold my bike and ordered my new one (Bosch) so back on my normal bike for a wee while until it arrives

Thanks again

 

[Kernow]

The Bosch is nowhere near as natural feeling as the Shimano E8000 in my opinion, it surges from the slightest pedal movement which isn't natural at all.

It is more powerful though, and quieter if that matters. The battery range is similar, taking the extra power in to account, wish I had more control over the assistance levels though.

As with the E8000, there's things I like and things I dislike with the Bosch, but it's different, which I'm enjoying at the moment.

I guess your using the Bosch in the higher modes , in the lower modes it’s very different. I ve found getting started on a difficult slop using the lower power then turning up as you get going works well , emtb does give a fair kick ,

 

[stiv674]

I guess your using the Bosch in the higher modes , in the lower modes it’s very different. I ve found getting started on a difficult slop using the lower power then turning up as you get going works well , emtb does give a fair kick ,

No, mostly in eco and tour modes.

 

[Gary]

less internal friction than the e8000.

This is actually nonsense though. .
When released Shimano said the EP8 had less internal friction than their older motors. But friction in the older E7/8000 motors was already discernable and the reduction in friction they claim is not noticeable in the slightest while riding.

EP8 does have a slightly quieter motor whir when driving the bike but it's decoupling knocks inside when freewheeling quite loudly whereas the E7/8000 didn't.

Ebike do motors make noises normal drivetrains don't but you'll get used to that whatever motor you choose. And In actual fact motor noise is useful for telling the rider what their motor is doing. (eg. For gauging revs/torque/output and gauging when to shift gear and when not to)

 

[bigdaddy46]

Bosch gen 4 to me feels far superior in every way to Shimano E7000/E8000, haven't ridden an EP8. Only thing I dislike is the purion controller on the bosch, feels like its right in harms way. Earlier gen bosch is more light switch like with more run over. Personally I wouldn't even consider a bike with a shimano but I have an autoimmune disorder so keeping my heart rate from skyrocketing is what keeps me able to ride.

 

[Kernow]

No, mostly in eco and tour modes.

Maybe our Motors both shimano and bosch have different tunes . the shimano you could alter stuff a bit in its power outputs , and different manufacturers seem to have different Bosch tunes like trek have the emtb light ,

 

[Peaky Rider]

What power mode is the 'rollover' function supposed to work in? I had the dealer remove EMTB mode as it kept giving me more power than I wanted. Is it only available in EMTB mode/?

 

[stiv674]

Maybe our Motors both shimano and bosch have different tunes . the shimano you could alter stuff a bit in its power outputs , and different manufacturers seem to have different Bosch tunes like trek have the emtb light ,

I used to adjust my shimano settings but that didn't affect the feel of the assistance, it was only in boost that it would surge, the Bosch does it in all modes.

I've got a Whyte and I'm pretty sure it's just the standard bosch tune.

I'm not complaining about the Bosch, just that I don't find the assistance natural at all.

 

[Mteam]

What power mode is the 'rollover' function supposed to work in? I had the dealer remove EMTB mode as it kept giving me more power than I wanted. Is it only available in EMTB mode/?

Emtb mode

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I used to adjust my shimano settings but that didn't affect the feel of the assistance, it was only in boost that it would surge, the Bosch does it in all modes.

I've got a Whyte and I'm pretty sure it's just the standard bosch tune.

I'm not complaining about the Bosch, just that I don't find the assistance natural at all.

Have you got the new Tour+ mode? Its very similar (probably identical) power curve to the 'Magic Tour" mode below. I find it natural but also has full power on tap when you pedal hard.

 

[Kernow]

That’s a good graph Rob , also called emtb light in the more recent trek bikes .

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

That’s a good graph Rob , also called emtb light in the more recent trek bikes .

Cheers
EMTB Lite is different again! It doesn’t peak as high as Turbo / EMTB or Tour+ and maxxes out at 240% assistance. The former modes peak at 340%.

And to further confuse things, on the latest 2022 Treks, they no longer use EMTB lite and have the new Tour+ instead!

Would be great if Bosch supplied updated graphs with them all on!

For what it’s worth, on the new Bosch Smart, the Eco and Turbo modes can further be customised by the rider.