Why eMtb? What I've learned...

[Zed]

I wanted to brain dump this. Partly for my own future reference, but also for people who are eMtb curious, or new riders, who might find this. I'm wondering how different the story is for others.

A bit of background first. I'm 45 years old, and I'm 95kg at 181cm. A really healthy weight for my slim frame would be probably just under 80kg, and that's where I'd love to be. But for various reasons I won't go into here, getting much lighter and staying there has been very difficult. So, 95kg and 45 years old it is.

I love riding trails, and one of the wonderful things about this activity is that I get some good quality exercise and it's fun. Because it's fun I keep doing it. It's been around 7 years ago now that I found mountain biking and it's by the far the longest I've kept up any physical activity through my lifetime thus far.
What I've learned through much trial and error is this. If it want to ride trails on a regular MTB there are two choices:
1) Have a training plan where I use a trainer and/or spend hours on a road bike to get my fitness up and keep it there. This way I can enjoy a trail ride maybe once a week (because the rest of the time I'm training &/or recovering).
2) Just ride trails and feel like shit a lot of the time because I'm sustaining too high a heart rate for long periods.
Number 1 is very boring - especially since it has to be done long term. To my ADD type brain it's a jail sentence. I need some excitement in my life and this just doesn't bring it.
Number 2 leads to exertion headaches, not having energy to be a good Dad. It's not that I find that riding too hard, it's that it makes me feel like shit and not function afterwards. It's too much to recover from and fitness improvements don't happen. So it's not a fitness plan or even a fitness activity, it's simply an over-exertion.

Now for the the eMtb, well - it means I can go and ride trails and have fun AND THAT IS THE TRAINING PLAN, right there. It IS suitable exercise, all by itself - I don't have to train for hours per week in order to enjoy it. So it's like having my cake and eating it too.

This is my third eMtb and I'm coming back from a regular bike. When I went back to regular bike this last time I was thinking "hey, I'm 45, serious fitness is still possible and I should grab it while I can". The realities of doing this were just not pleasant though, and I suppose it's fair to say I just don't have the motivation to keep it up. I've thought for some time the difference between the serious endurance athlete and a regular person is only motivation. There's a thing they have to prove, something they can't let go. I just don't have that... and to be honest I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I did recently improve my fitness a lot using a road bike, but that got too boring so I tried Zwift and TrainerRoad on a Kickr. That was more convenient but not even YouTube could appease my brain. It's just not EXCITING. I'd just... rather not get on the bike, do something else (anything else?).

So I'm back to racing around local forests on an eMtb like a lunatic, and loving it. What I want to get nailed now is weight loss, in a sustained way, and I know the eMtb can help me with that if I manage to get the diet part right. If I ride with lots of frequency, but some lower intensity riding too, I think a lot of sustained fitness is achievable with an eMtb.

 

[apac]

I'm similar age, father of two young kids , battling weight and fitness too. I know what you mean about being too tired for your children, it's a balancing act. Alcohol is my anesthetiser and down fall when not either swimming or Ebiking which of course stops my weight reduction. I also work with teenagers which is pretty draining. My Ebike gives me the edge I need to comfortably ride off-road, I have a levo SL and ride it at the same speed as a normal mtb. Its all I ever wished for from an Ebike and believe me when I say I have done the rounds with DIY ebiking over that past 12 years.
it's the perfect compromise between effort and assist.

 

[JoeBlow]

"Fitness" is a strange beast. I climbed, rock, snow, ice you name it for 55 years but never trained for it. I simply did as much of it as I could. Many years ago I took a friend who was a very accomplished marathon runner and gym junky climbing on a cliff near the summit of Snowdon. I carried most of the gear and was very surprised to find that he still could not keep up with me on the walk in. If I tried to run I would be panting after a few hundred yards.

Al

 

[Zed]

Just eat less and the rest takes care of its self.

Haha if only it was that easy. I have a metabolic problem I think, probably a genetic potential for diabetes. My mum is type 2 without having a particularly bad diet. I've done really well with losing weight when I've been keto. The challenge with it is boredom with the food. I'm deciding a the moment whether to try it again. When I eat carbs I CRAAAAVE carbs and that includes healthier ones. I think maybe baked potatoes is the only carb I've found that doesn't trigger the insulin cycle.

Contrary to popular belief exercise does not offset poor diet and calorie intake unless you are an athlete.

If only it did! I'd be golden... It did for me about 5 years ago when I was cycle commuting a LOT (non-ebike) because I lost my license. But I was knackered, all the time...

Shedding 12kg in lockdown made eMTB much easier and less demanding on my body and bike. suspension works better and so do tires and wheels when they arent being made to deal with 10-15kg of weight.

Well done! And yeah that's why I was talking about my 95kg. I made a deal with myself to not even look at a normal mtb unless I get down to 80, I'm very much across the power-weight and how that impacts my heart rate...

Being "Fit" is also a myth as its impossible to quantify. Put a "Fit" runner on a Snowboard and watch how long he still thinks hes "fit"

Yeah, specificity. Being lighter is a good for most things though hey

 

[Zed]

"Fitness" is a strange beast. I climbed, rock, snow, ice you name it for 55 years but never trained for it. I simply did as much of it as I could. Many years ago I took a friend who was a very accomplished marathon runner and gym junky climbing on a cliff near the summit of Snowdon. I carried most of the gear and was very surprised to find that he still could not keep up with me on the walk in. If I tried to run I would be panting after a few hundred yards.

Al

This video here sums up what I'm starting to try out on myself now:
(15) Joe Rogan - How To Workout Smarter - YouTube
I've heard and seen this ethos from a few different places recently, this one vid is the best. Training by just doing a lot, rather than actually training. Firas the guy talking about it is a high end MMA coach, he knows his shit.

Over the past 10 years or so I've jumped into training in various ways (strength, cardio, MTB) and it's always been a kill myself-recover cycle. And while it's worked it hasn't worked particularly well and has been hard to keep up. But this idea is different and much better matched with the older bloke I think. I've been doing single sets of push ups and chin ups 3x a day on every weekday to test the waters but it's only been a week. It does feel easier already though...

But I want to apply this to eMtb. A goal being e-Enduro racing, without coming last

And when you think about it, the eMtb is the perfect way to apply this philosophy to riding (versus a regular MTB, unless we're talking flat terrain that is).

 

[Zed]

If you count calories its easy to eat what you want.

I lost that weight eating chips 5 days a week. You cook them with Fry Light part boiled in the oven and basically there are no calories in them. Combine with chicken and steak and the meal is 700-800 cals all in. I had 500 cals budget for other snacks and meals and it was easy after a week or 2 doing it.

Keto/atkins etc are to restrictive. my diet was.

cheeseburger and chips
Kebabs homemade with lamb
Curry and chips
Steak and chips
Nandos chicken pittas
Tuna pots for lunch with low cal tomato soup

did it for 4 months.

I have come across a lot of different potato based diets recently. The idea being the starch is resistant to breaking down. I've been smashing a lot of baked potatoes, chicken schnitzel, baked beans (hey I've got a eMtb to pay for ), the odd Burrito. I'm not really losing weight, I'm maintaining, but I'm not really trying yet, I've been taking a breather.
Maybe I will try the calorie counting thing again (for about the 37th time I think). I haven't tried doing it potato-heavy though...
What I have definitely worked out is when I eat any refined carb my cravings will fire for the rest of that day.
I do agree though, keto is very restrictive. Wow did I have good results though.
I need to work out the plan from here.
Thanks for the input

 

[Zed]

Its not really heavy on Potatoe.

300g of Fry light chips are 200cals if i remember right.

I was living on 1200 cals per day. 50% of those cals need to be protein because protein is worth 2/3 of 1 calorie after digestion so really you are living on closer to 900-1000 cals per day.

There are 3500 cals in 1lb of fat so you need to cut out 7000 cals per week to lose 2lb per week which is roughly a Kg per week give or take.

So you NEED to run a calorie deficit of 7k cals per week to lose weight of 1kg per week roughly.

Work on the basis that you expend around 2200 cals per day (not 2500) and live on 1200 and you will lose weight every week.

Woooaah 1200 cals a day I'd go insane and it will sooner rather than later end in a binge and I'll eat it ALL right back... and then some
Ask me how I know
Your metabolism, not to mention hunger levels, must be waaaay different to mine...

 

[Zed]

My dad keeps saying the same thing.

Reality is that 99% of people dont have any metabolic issues they just eat too many calories and the wrong kind of calories.

Hunger is not linked to calorie intake because if it was i would be starving on 1000 cals per day and i wasnt.

I'm wondering, how long has it been since you dropped 12kgs? And how old are you?

That said, I have a friend my age who can lose weight like you're talking about. A notable difference there I thought was he has a lot less visceral fat - a lot less fat inside the abdomen. His fat seemed to be all over his body, subcutaneous fat. He just reigned in his diet and had no noticeable cravings, lost the weight. For me the fat is just inside and to a lesser extent on my belly. Big genetic differences.

I've done a lot of dieting over recent years, and I'm not uneducated with all this at all. I've tried "just eat less, and better foods" I can't count how many times.

Hunger for me is more linked to blood sugar I think rather than outright calorie intake. It's also linked to various other hormones and to things like the filling of the gut. Carbs fires up my hunger and when I have them in my diet I find any level of caloric restriction difficult because I will crave food - specifically, food containing carbs, of really any type. In contrast, I find it very easy to eat a calorie deficit when I'm keto. This is typical of poor metabolic health from spiking insulin too much over the long term.

If I eat under 1800cals per days (about 2200 is maintenance without much exercise) then my cortisol levels will sky rocket and I will actually have trouble sleeping, and a lot of stress - I feel really edgy and over stimulated. The effect is like drinking a LOT of caffeine. This happens to such an extent that when I'm losing weight on Keto (and I find it so easy to restrict cals) that I have to intentionally eat more to keep this effect at bay, when it comes. The cortisol spiking has happened when I've fasted too. But if there are carbs in my diet, hunger will make it very difficult to restrict cals that low - I find really any sort of deficit uncomfortable, when I'm eating carbs, sadly.

As for 99% of people not having metabolic issues, 5% of Australians are officially diabetic. Many more would be pre-diabetic or at least insulin resistant. I'm on the edge of insulin resistance myself, because I have a consistently high fasting blood glucose. Also, how much generally healthier I've felt on keto is a good indicator about my bad relationship with glucose/insulin.

The thing I think you're missing is just because you found something that works for you, doesn't mean you now have the answer for all mankind. Diet isn't like that, there's a lot more contributing factors.

 

[JoeBlow]

IMO the biggest culprit for men is beer. Cut back on food portion sizes and don't drink beer and I suspect the weight will pour off.

Al

 

[Zed]

IMO the biggest culprit for men is beer. Cut back on food portion sizes and don't drink beer and I suspect the weight will pour off.

Al

Haha, I think beer originally got me in this state. I suspect drinking copious amounts of beer, followed by the ensuing garbage food during hangovers, probably got me in this bad metabolic state. Beer causes horrendous blood sugar spiking and disables the livers ability to burn fat. And oh boy did I do a lot of that.

But I don't drink now. I did drink a fair bit over a week 3 months ago, before that it was 6 months, and my current plan is never to drink again. Sadly, the weight hasn't fallen off

The more I type about this here, the more I'm starting to lean towards trying another stint on keto though. I don't really look at Keto as a diet - but a therapy, for the metabolism. I just get so tired of meat, fat and plants...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Reality is that 99% of people dont have any metabolic issues they just eat too many calories and the wrong kind of calories.

cheeseburger and chips
Kebabs homemade with lamb
Curry and chips
Steak and chips
Nandos chicken pittas
Tuna pots for lunch with low cal tomato soup

The thing I think you're missing is just because you found something that works for you, doesn't mean you now have the answer for all mankind. Diet isn't like that, there's a lot more contributing factors.

You will find this is a common theme with rekt/zero/fx1 (his previous alter ego's) He will have one experience for him and that is the solution for everyone and everything, there is no understanding or comprehension beyond that. Until you agree you'll just keep getting it rammed in your face.

 

[JoeBlow]

There is no doubt that some people have a higher propensity to put on weight. Although I do strongly believe that in the vast majority of cases a healthy diet and exercise is the answer.

 

[Zed]

There is no doubt that some people have a higher propensity to put on weight. Although I do strongly believe that in the vast majority of cases a healthy diet and exercise is the answer.

Undoubtedly it is, if you include "appropriate calorie amount" in "healthy diet" - which makes perfect sense. The question is of course, finding whatever techniques (or food choices?) that allow one to stick to said healthy diet over the long term. And the best approach is going to vary on (at least) genetics, microbiome, metabolic and lifestyle factors.
At least, that's what I strongly believe

 

[Zed]

You know actually, I have bought this book: Home | Eat Smarter (eatsmarterbook.com) And not read it yet
It's got rave reviews, I've seen the guys youtube vids (why I bought the book) I think reading it's a good next step, diet-wise.

But this thread was meant to be about the glory that is eMtb, not dieting

 

[Mteam]

Eat less, ie Just be hungry for longer. That worked for me a couple of years ago.

Hunger is weight leaving the body.

 

[RickBullotta]

IMO the biggest culprit for men is beer. Cut back on food portion sizes and don't drink beer and I suspect the weight will pour off.

Al

I started adding non-alcoholic beers into the mix. They're also very low calories. The beers from Athletic Brewing are really quite decent. And if you're a Heineken person, 0.0 is a fair substitute - tried some at Goodwood and liked them.

 

[cozzy]

Screw diets and fitness to enjoy a hobby, basically pissing around in the woods. Riding a static bike in the garage? Christ what is that all about.
I have decided I love mountainbiking, but only emtb. The whole ride is 100% fun. Riding a mtb is also fun, but only for a very small percentage of the ride.

 

[apac]

I drink ipa craft beers and they are 9.5%. If I could teach my subconscious that I didn’t need beer between 6 and 9pm. I’d be a better person.

I swim 5 miles a week though… I’m proud of that?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hunger is weight leaving the body.

I thought that was poo poo time ? Have I been getting all these feelings wrong all this time ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think beer originally got me in this state. I suspect drinking copious amounts of beer

It does taste nice though ...

I drink ipa craft beers and they are 9.5%. If I could teach my subconscious that I didn’t need beer between 6 and 9pm. I’d be a better person.

I swim 5 miles a week though… I’m proud of that?

I think the secret is to decide you're not going to have the first one. Go do something else when you'd normally be pouring that cool, refreshing, frothy, delightful, lovely, irresistible first one ...... and then it's easy. Is it 6 yet ?

That's quite a swim - is your off licence off shore ?

 

[The Hodge]

No it's inside his own belly ..? ( rhe swim that is ) .

 

[Darren]

I thought that was poo poo time ? Have I been getting all these feelings wrong all this time ?

Weirdly - weight is lost through expelling carbon dioxide from you nose or mouth - pretty sure you can't poo poo out belly fat.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Weirdly - weight is lost through expelling carbon dioxide from you nose or mouth - pretty sure you can't poo poo out belly fat.

Oooh, doesn't beer have carbon dioxide in ?? Sounds like it's going up on the healthy scale to me !

 

[B1rdie]

Will this have an explanation for what happens when ya fart?
Loose weight? Volume? Fast move foreward?

 

[Stihldog]

Weirdly - weight is lost through expelling carbon dioxide from you nose or mouth - pretty sure you can't poo poo out belly fat.

If there were no side effects, I would stop breathing then. ?. I wanna gain weight.

When I was working I would go up to 185 pounds, When I’m eMTB biking I go up to 175 pounds, when I’m doing nothing I can drop down to 165 or 160 pounds.

I guess just having a different metabolism is the difference, I’m naturally thin.

 

[apac]

Anyway, done a ride after work today. South Wales, Cwmcarn forest drive. Plenty of trails including ''Cafall' (which incidentally was the name of King Arthur's dog). It's a single track XC trail with plenty of technical twist n turns along with some fast descents with drops and edge of the mountain lines. All carved out of natural terrain. Some serious climbs and 1500ft of elevation. Check out my heart rate?! Using my levo SL on 35/100 power and used 40% of battery.

 

[The Hodge]

Anyway, done a ride after work today. South Wales, Cwmcarn forest drive. Plenty of trails including ''Cafall' (which incidentally was the name of King Arthur's dog). It's a single track XC trail with plenty of technical twist n turns along with some fast descents with drops and edge of the mountain lines. All carved out of natural terrain. Some serious climbs and 1500ft of elevation. Check out my heart rate! Using my levo SL on 35/100 power and used 40% of battery.

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You mustnt be a football fan ( or not Welsh ) to not be glued to a TV.. ..fantastic result for the national team from what I heard on the radio commentary ..

 

[apac]

You mustnt be a football fan ( or not Welsh ) to not be glued to a TV.. ..fantastic result for the national team from what I heard on the radio commentary ..

I’m not a huge football fan but definitely Welsh. I’ll Catch the highlights.
Now tucking into a nice Belgium beer…

 

[Zed]

If there were no side effects, I would stop breathing then. ?. I wanna gain weight.

When I was working I would go up to 185 pounds, When I’m eMTB biking I go up to 175 pounds, when I’m doing nothing I can drop down to 165 or 160 pounds.

I guess just having a different metabolism is the difference, I’m naturally thin.

I was like this in my 20s
As I kid I was skinny as a rake and couldn't put anything on no matter what I did...
Oh how I'd love to have that metabolism again
Then, maybe, "just eat less" and "energy in, energy out" would be simple huh!

 

[Zed]

Love that Welsh countryside. Everywhere I get to ride is forest, and I long for some open mountains/hills. NZ one day soon
This is a quick burn in eMtb mode for me...
So lots of support, it's full power if you push a decent amount (say >150w), which I tend to struggle to do less than. I want to try to work on that and add a couple more easier rides per week. I'm not sure if Tour mode or Boost mode is the best approach for that, for me. Tour for an overall more chilled ride, Boost to keep the adrenalin but with less output from me.
This is about 10-15bpm average less than on a non-ebike, with max being about 183 usually non-ebike. And about 11km/h faster