Which Emtb?

[SilverSun]

Hi,

In the market for N+1 ebike, Question is what would you pick if you were buying right now?

Cheers!

 

[steve_sordy]

As I have just bought one, I would recommend the Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE.

 

[All Mountain Coaching]

That's like asking what car you would buy. Maybe narrow it down to where you ride, budget, ability to charge, etc etc.

And bare in mind that everyone will usually suggest what they have.

 

[njn]

intense tazer

 

[dirt huffer]

Commencal Meta Power or if money's no object, Norco Sight VLT

 

[outerlimits]

Full custom build to my spec, and would be heaps better than anything produced commercially.

 

[More-read-than-ride]

You can look at the process some of us discussed a few days ago.
I think step number 1 is to determine which type of bike, call it for instance Enduro vs. trail.
However, I like to think of it in the following way as it seems that emtb seem to seemlessly divide into two major camps, both great:

a. Stable
(longer bike, longer chainstays (> 450mm), lower head tube angle (ex. 64-66º) and often heavier (22.5-24kg)). "The Range Rover" in car terms, perhaps.

b. Agile
(Light weight (20-22,5 kg, shorter chainstays (< 450mm), higher head tube angle (ex 66-68º). "The Porsche 911" in car terms

Do you guys agree with this summary of the current market?
Keep in mind that for most people the difference is subtle.

Take a look at this thread with some different view points:
My process and priorities for choosing my emtb. Yours? - EMTB Forums

Anyway, as personal favorties I have Specialized Levo, Focus Jam2 and Canyon Spectral on the agile side and Cube and Haibike on the more stable side which I personally prefer because I am a bit on the comfy side when it comes to riding. Many riders here seem to be on the agile side.

I also like this view of things:
Formula for buying a bike by Mad Mark - EMTB Forums

 

[More-read-than-ride]

As I have just bought one, I would recommend the Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE.

Great and impartial suggestion

 

[More-read-than-ride]

You can look at the process some of us discussed a few days ago.
I think step number 1 is to determine which type of bike, call it for instance Enduro vs. trail.
However, I like to think of it in the following way as it seems that emtb seem to seemlessly divide into two major camps, both great:

a. Stable
(longer bike, longer chainstays (> 450mm), lower head tube angle (ex. 64-66º) and often heavier (22.5-24kg)). "The Range Rover" in car terms, perhaps.

b. Agile
(Light weight (20-22,5 kg, shorter chainstays (< 450mm), higher head tube angle (ex 66-68º). "The Porsche 911" in car terms

Do you guys agree with this summary of the current market?
Keep in mind that for most people the difference is subtle.

Take a look at this thread with some different view points:
My process and priorities for choosing my emtb. Yours? - EMTB Forums

Anyway, as personal favorties I have Specialized Levo, Focus Jam2 and Canyon Spectral on the agile side and Cube and Haibike on the more stable side which I personally prefer because I am a bit on the comfy side when it comes to riding. Many riders here seem to be on the agile side.

I also like this view of things:
Formula for buying a bike by Mad Mark - EMTB Forums

By the way, I choose a Haibike Flyon 150mm, which i think sit on the stable side, but closer to the middle in terms of my imaginary two camps.

 

[Gary]

However, I like to think of it in the following way as it seems that emtb seem to seemlessly divide into two major camps, both great:

a. Stable
(longer bike, longer chainstays (> 450mm), lower head tube angle (ex. 64-66º) and often heavier (22.5-24kg)). "The Range Rover" in car terms, perhaps.

b. Agile
(Light weight (20-22,5 kg, shorter chainstays (< 450mm), higher head tube angle (ex 66-68º). "The Porsche 911" in car terms

Do you guys agree with this summary of the current market?

in a word.

No.

I'm riding a 21kg 170mm travel stable and agile emtb (they're not exclusive traits)
it's stability comes from it's low 326mm BB, 455mm chainstays, 64deg H/A and the added 15lb of low and cenrtal weight a mid drive Shiano motor and downtube battery adds
The agility comes from it's lower weight (particularly the wheels), shorter (by todays standards) reach (435mm) and firm/progressive suspension set-up. neutral (but biased towards DH/Jumping) bar/stem configuration (height, length, rise. roll set-up) helps too,

comparing mtbs (actually any bikes) to cars is stupid

 

[More-read-than-ride]

in a word.

No.

I'm riding a 21kg 170mm travel stable and agile emtb (they're not exclusive traits)
it's stability comes from it's low 326mmBB, 455mm chainstays, 64deg H/A and the added 15lb of low and cenrtal weight a mid drive motor and downtube battery adds
The agility comes from it's lower weight (particularly the wheels), shorter reach (435mm) and firm/progressive suspension set-up. neutral (but biased towards DH/Jumping) bar/stem configuration (heighyt, length, rise. roll set-up) helps too,

comparing mtbs (actually any bikes) to cars is stupid

Sorry, I tried to make a simple overview of a complex subject. That will never be precise, but I still think it serves as an initial guide. Just trying to help with the car analogy...

 

[Gary]

Sorry, I tried to make a simple overview of a complex subject. That will never be precise, but I still think it serves as an initial guide. Just trying to help with the car analogy...

Absolutely no need to say sorry.

But why on earth are you trying to split anything into two distinct groups in the first place?

No 50lb mtb needs an extra 5lb bolted to it in order to make it more stable. if it's unstable at that weight it's 100% down to geometry. (assuming weight distribution isn't a mess)

I hate myself for even typing this... but at proper high speeds your porsche will be far more stable than your rangie

 

[More-read-than-ride]

Absolutely no need to say sorry.

But why on earth are you trying to split anything into two distinct groups in the first place?

No 50lb mtb needs an extra 5lb bolted to it in order to make it more stable. if it's unstable at that weight it's 100% down to geometry.

I hate myself for even typing this... but at proper high speeds your porsche will be far more stable than your rangie

Thanks!
I completely get all your points and I also generally agree with them in the sense that they add detail.

I have no logical answer to why I try to categorize other than it helped me a lot to create a picture of the market when I was looking. My brain just work that way I guess...

In conclusion, for the people who can keep track of all the different charateristics and how they affect the bike, what I propose will always be overly simplistic.

At the very least, I am proud I managed to get you to use the car analogy!

 

[Gary]

Sorry I can't really continue with this discussion I'm too busy self harming right now

 

[More-read-than-ride]

Since we want to avoid self-mutilation at all cost (it gets in the way of riding), perhaps you can help me come up with a different word for stable and agile that would make my simplistic emtb-world view work better?

Naturally playful vs. naturally docile? (meaning that setup can change this)

Oh no, now he is going to tell me again that those are not mutually exclusive and he is going to be right... hmmm . So, apparently the world is not black and white. Who knew??

... Going back to work now instead of wasting mine and everybody else's time.

 

[ggx]

Maybe mtb bikes this days are getting to long and extreme for the average rider!?

 

[dirt huffer]

How do you know the OP wants an agile handling bike?
He maybe wants something vague that handles like a yacht

 

[Gary]

perhaps you can help me come up with a different word for stable and agile that would make my simplistic emtb-world view work better?

Naturally playful vs. naturally docile? (meaning that setup can change this)

You're just overthinking it and seem to have a strange need to compartmentalise everything.
Stable and agile are definitely the correct words and you can have both traits in a bike. What you couldn't have is the most stable bike possible and it still be agile. and the same is true vice versa. but you wouldn't actually want to ride a bike designed to perform at the extreme of either handling characteristic anyway.

From the examples I've given using my own bike I've hopefully opened your mind to how some design parameters contribute to agility and others stability. It's all an incredibly complex and vast balancing act. and even then "stability" and "agility" can be split into their own further perameters. eg. Is straight line stablity the same thing as cornering stablilty? No. and it shouldn't be either. (poorly worded but hopefully you'll get what I mean)

 

[Gary]

How do you know the OP wants an agile handling bike?
He maybe wants something vague that handles like a yacht

I've no idea what the OP wants as his post is extremely vague in that respect He's asking what WE would choose.
It's kind of irrelivent but at the present time I'd still choose exactly the same emtb I currently have.

as for the drama queen reaction.


I know...

 

[dirt huffer]

Full custom build to my spec, and would be heaps better than anything produced commercially.

Yeah! I change my answer... I'd ask Alchemy Bikes to build me a custom full suspension (180f/180r) and have it painted Papaya Orange like the McLaren GTR

 

[steve_sordy]

Great and impartial suggestion

At least I owned up to why!

 

[Macone]

For geometry - ride everything you can and narrow your choices down to two or three bikes that YOU feel comfortable with. then look at spec and price and see what works for you. KISS theory.

 

[dirt huffer]

For geometry - ride everything you can and narrow your choices down to two or three bikes that YOU feel comfortable with. then look at spec and price and see what works for you. KISS theory.

Then take out a second mortgage

 

[Russell]

It's about time they started selling frame's and frame' with motor only.
I emailed one manufacturer and they said Shimano won let them.

 

[Tim29]

Having owned , tested and Ridden way to many ebikes. Categorizing i wouldn’t say is to far off.
My Bulls bikes where short, quick turning and a lot of people who are not into enduro riding enjoyed them more then some of the other more slack bikes. As for the Haibike, not quite sure why anyone likes them other then price point. Focus jam2 is decent but to fragile for a hard enduro rider, but well balanced for light enduro riding. The Pivot-shuttle is well rounded bike that’s playful and stable, but it’s only 140 travel in rear and has limits the forks and wheel sets don’t agree with. The Fantic comes with way to skinny and light duty wheels for a 160 and 180 travel bike.
I guess this list could go on for days with pros and cons.
But i tell you why i went with the current bikes i have.
I have three Fantics, Bulls FS3 and formerly a Kenevo.
Why Kenevo got chopping block, battery was to small, motor got hot and throttled back on hot days on long climbs. Couldn’t match the cornering and stability of the Integra.
The FS3 i keep for my wife to ride when she feels up to it or someone who is new at riding and feels a slack bike has front wheel way out in front.
But what has made me a die hard Fantic rider is there balance. Motor, battery placement centralize the weight better then everything i have tried. With just a wheel set, bars and upgraded dropper it’s an amazing bike. The 180 coil rear is plush smooth and there rear suspension i think is the best in the game. The shock pivot angle and the multi rate rear is confidence inspiring at any speed. Setting the rear sag at 18-20% makes the bike very agile on tight trails and still very stable at speed and doesn’t disprupt the rear suspension functionality on light bumps or chatter. The spring preload can be adjusted on the trail with only your fingers needed for tools and this aids in bike setup for trail conditions.
The kenevo and FS3 both have to steep head angle to do that without upsetting bike stability at speed. plus they both get really harsh in rear when you try it.
So for now i think the Fantic 180 and 160 race are to most versatile ebikes on the market right now in the 8500 and under price points.
The Fantic Integra 160 i think is a big miss and one of the less desirable bikes in stock form. But with proper wheel set, stem, dropper, bars it’s pretty good.
There a big difference in the Fantic Integra 160 and the integra 160 race.
And Fantic doesn’t do a good job in print details what they changed between those two bikes, but if you rode the race then the integra you laugh at the integra even at a novice rider level.
, but we Race the Fantic because of the bikes capabilities.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

@Tim29 on the Fantic that im riding (base level Integra 160) I’d change
- wheels (too small diameter front)
- tyres (stock don’t work well in U.K. winter!)
- bars (only 740mm??)
- dropper (only 120cm)
It’s a shame that it comes with these odd spec components out of the box on a £5k bike.

Also they need to make it in XL.

 

[Reddog]

Commencal Meta Power or if money's no object, Norco Sight VLT

I have the VLT2. It’s unbelievable to ride and battery life is amazing.

 

[Kangr]

if possible try a few out.
if you can wait go to something like the leasure lakes demo weekend in march. they will have loads of brands with emtbs there that you can try out on the demo loop (this is the section of trail from tackaroo to birches valley on cannock chase's follow the dog)
think it cost around £15 for the day with unlimited testing. most brands that leasure lakes sell will be there, unfortunaly this means that direct sales brands wont, so no canyon or commencal.

 

[JoshDwnHll]

DWNHLL pro for sure, I'm not biased