What will be your next emtb? Lightweight or full fat?

[irie]

Look at the history. EMTBs primarilly designed as trail bikes and typically 150mm travel front and back were all about the same weight if ally..........maybe a little less if all carbon but not much. Then many of those trail oriented EMTBs ventured into the realms of Enduro which meant 160mm became more dominant with thicker stancion forks and piggy back shocks......at the same time batteries started getting bigger and heavier. Overall these bikes were much heavier duty.
All EMTB ally bikes are made from 6000 series ally ( Except the Polma), equipped with robust wheelsets and well protected tyre casings. So where are you going to lose a few Kgs without weakening the frame?? The same could be said for carbon framed bikes. Many of the frame elements have to withstand compression which is not the strong card for a lightweight composite construction.
Answer: smaller less powerful motor, smaller battery, XC quality wheels and tyres, carbon bars and cranks, maybe lighter suspension components.......or skimp on frame strength ( carbon or ally)..............all of which spells an XC or maybe a trail bike but not a bike park or enduro bike. To achieve ultra light weight with composite design the frame cannot be the same design as for an ally bike.........it needs a rethink.
The developments that would enable a full enduro design at a lighter weight would be the use of 7075 ally instead of 6061 ( but specialist welding techniques required), full capacity batteries that weight much less..........or maybe fuel cell rather than lithium, a complete redesign of the drivetrain; tyre technology that at least equals Maxxis DD type protection at half the weight. Caron frames with a very different desing to ally frames.
When all of that is achieved having a lower powered motor becomes irrelevant..........after all you can decide how much power you want/need already.

Let's look at this post in 2-3 years time.

 

[Mikerb]

It's battery tech that is the limiting factor. Elon needs to stop fucking around with Twatter and sort that out instead.

Even then, how much weight is it going to be possible to save? 2KG tops?

Musk is (for obvious reasons) wedded to Lithium battery tech whereas hydrogen fuel cells are the better technology especially since there is not enough Lithium to be sustainable.

 

[irie]

It's battery tech that is the limiting factor. Elon needs to stop fucking around with Twatter and sort that out instead.

Even then, how much weight is it going to be possible to save? 2KG tops?

There are 3 key issues:

1. Battery tech. A Bosch 500Wh battery weighs ~3.5 kg. New technologies could reduce this to ~2kg.

2. Light frames (using pre-preg perhaps?) could save ~1kg (most of the weight of 'carbon' is resin).

3. FF motor weight. Typically now 2.9kg could in the future be reduced to 1.9kg.

Total weight saving perhaps 2+1+1=4kg.

 

[Litehiker]

Full Fat-> E-Cells Crown Monarch.
2 wheel drive, 2 batteries, dual suspension

This E-Cells e-MBT is mainly for hunting here in Nevada where covering territory is crucial but doing it silently is even better.
However I will be "training" on it here in Henderson, Nevada where we have an excellent paved and (mostly) dirt public trail system open to e-bikes of all types.

"Doomanic" is correct regarding the need for better batteries. If we EVER get dry cell batteries they will be smaller and lighter AND charge much faster. Current Li-ion batteries are FAR too costly. Hopefully Dry cell batteries will be more affordable too.

 

[Tony4wd]

All of my rides include long, steep hills and I suffer from arthritis so a stronger motor is the only choice. The only time I wish for a lighter bike is when lifting over locked gates or other obstacles.

 

[steve_sordy]

<= 20kg with pedals. Couple of years perhaps.

I had a full fat bike that weighed 20.4Kg. If I had fitted lighter tyres, grips and pedals, I could have easily got below 20kg.

Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE 2019 (i.e. high spec carbon frame 29er), 150mm travel. The Jam2 at the time had a 378Whr battery and a Shimano e8000 motor with 70Nm torque.

I can't remember if a 27.5" wheeled version was available (probably) but that would have been even lighter.

Later versions of the Jam2 had a Bosch motor and a 630whr battery that weighed several kg more than my 2019 version with the TEC pack fitted (+2.2KG). It looked as though Focus were going backwards!

 

[SwampNut]

I read the thread wondering what the lines are for "light" versus "full fat," because I own some real heavyweights. Our Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra 1000 is probably about 75 pounds, just guessing. And I have one of the Chinese electric enduro bikes with 5+ kW of power and a 72v 2800kWH battery, at probably 110. But we've also got a Fantic and now an Intense Tazer MX Pro both coming in at 51 pounds. Is that full fat? Seem pretty light.

 

[MOTO13]

Yes, those are full fat...with extra thickness. Some people on this site think 45lbs for a fully suspended 625/85nm bike is heavy. So, you ride some real pigs.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Im going to opt for one of those citroen Ami cars.
Its got a heater and speakers No more rainy commutes.

I know it looks like utter sh** but im getting on in years.

 

[Doomanic]

I'd rather have a Carver.

 

[SwampNut]

Im going to opt for one of those citroen Ami cars.

I have a Smart, and it’s barely bigger than the Biktrix.

 

[Litehiker]

HEAVY? YOU WANT TO SEE HEAVY? Try my E-Cells Super Monarch Crown at 95 pounds. But that 2 wheel drive bike can CLIMB!

 

[LoneStar]

I'm actually pretty happy with my Rise H. Enough power and battery range, plus I've updated some things to make it a bit more burly. I think this is obviously pretty dependent on what you typically ride though. I think if I were doing more off piste kind of stuff or long, grueling days with tons of vertical, I'd probably opt for something with more power/battery.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Last season on a full fat, I found too many rides required pushing or hike-a-bike for various reasons. Down trees, "secret" hike-in trail entrances, clear cuts, a dead battery once. For one local trail in particular, I found my enduro meat-bike was preferrable over the EMTB, since the amount of time I saved climbing on the EMTB was lost when I had to carry it. Given the same parts, I also prefer the lighter bike on slow technical descents. I don't feel current brake & drivetrain systems are quite up to heavier FF weights.

Very happy with my Trek Fuel EXe so far. Mine got the enduro/mullet treatment.
I do hope there will be more midweight enduro/slack 160+ options in the future.

 

[PennywiseTheDancingClown]

At the moment I have a full fat, but I think it's quite possible that next time around I'll go a light weight.
As it stands, I ride with my son, who doesn't have an EMTB, so in order to keep it 'fair' and to match his speed, especially up hill, I'm finding myself in ECO most of the time (49nm, 24kg bike), and even that sometimes feels like I'm getting too much help.
Add to that the only reason I bought an EMTB is because I went through testicular cancer recently (check your balls fellas, they'll try to kill you) and chemo really did a number on me. I can't last long enough on am Amish bike for the travel time to a trail to be worthwhile.

So there are 3 options and all are equally as likely at this point.... a full fat, a lightweight or an amish bike. All options pretty much rely on whether or not my son gets an EMTB. (he probably wont)

 

[luna87824]

Any Full Fat <20kg!!

 

[Litehiker]

terb,
Then, at 95 pounds/43 Kg,, you could not go for my E-Cells 2 wheel drive, 2 battery, dual suspension monster bike with its 4" wide tires (tyres?).
But also you likely don't hunt and need all that power and traction to haul out the boned-out meat of a western US mule deer or much larger elk, plus yourself, rifle and survival gear. Ain't it wonderful that the E-MTB industry has products from the sublime (carbon fiber frames) to the ridiculous (my E-Cells over-built hunting bike).
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

 

[2stroked]

I was at a shop today that has a beautiful Ibis that only weighs 40 lbs but I was thinking what’s the benefit to a light weight e bike since it’s assisted anyway?

 

[SwampNut]

I was at a shop today that has a beautiful Ibis that only weighs 40 lbs but I was thinking what’s the benefit to a light weight e bike since it’s assisted anyway?

Throwing it around on difficult trails, getting over obstacles, tossing it over barriers.

 

[rod9301]

40 lbs sound like the weight of a downhill bike, except with crappy suspension.

 

[Dave Jenvey Superfan]

I went lightweight. And am very glad that I did. I managed to ride a whole heap of full fat's while trying to work out which bike I wanted, but two things always stood out to me. The first, and the most obvious, was the weight of the full fat's and just how heavy they become the second you hit the speed cut. At the very least it's annoying, but heading into a jump line it's flat out dangerous. I've not really seen that mentioned often here. Is this something that people somehow get used to? The second was that full fat's are fantastic for charging up hills, but their flaws are exposed going down. I'm not someone who gets excited about riding up hills at a record pace. I'd rather get up a hill slightly slower and in turn have a bike that handles in a far superior manner going down.

 

[mike_kelly]

I also choose the Orbea Rise because of the lightweight. I wanted a "tail wind" not a motorcycle experience. The Rise feels like a normal MTB on the trails. I like fast twisted singletrack and the Rise retains the feel of a quick agile MTB. It also has more than enough power and ride time for me.

 

[jacksonlui]

I went lightweight. And am very glad that I did. I managed to ride a whole heap of full fat's while trying to work out which bike I wanted, but two things always stood out to me. The first, and the most obvious, was the weight of the full fat's and just how heavy they become the second you hit the speed cut. At the very least it's annoying, but heading into a jump line it's flat out dangerous. I've not really seen that mentioned often here. Is this something that people somehow get used to? The second was that full fat's are fantastic for charging up hills, but their flaws are exposed going down. I'm not someone who gets excited about riding up hills at a record pace. I'd rather get up a hill slightly slower and in turn have a bike that handles in a far superior manner going down.

the extra weight makes the bike much more stable on the downs. It's just harder to throw around.

 

[Bman]

Throwing it around on difficult trails, getting over obstacles, tossing it over barriers.

I was at a shop today that has a beautiful Ibis that only weighs 40 lbs but I was thinking what’s the benefit to a light weight e bike since it’s assisted anyway?

Wait, what Ibis e-bike is only 40 pounds? The Oso is 50+...

 

[2stroked]

Wait, what Ibis e-bike is only 40 pounds? The Oso is 50+...

That’s what the guys said, I’m just going off that. My Intense is about 52lbs

 

[downunderdallas]

There are 3 key issues:

1. Battery tech. A Bosch 500Wh battery weighs ~3.5 kg. New technologies could reduce this to ~2kg.

2. Light frames (using pre-preg perhaps?) could save ~1kg (most of the weight of 'carbon' is resin).

3. FF motor weight. Typically now 2.9kg could in the future be reduced to 1.9kg.

Total weight saving perhaps 2+1+1=4kg.

1. Battery tech is definitely going to improve but we are already much better than 3.5kg for 500Wh. Fazua's 430Wh = 2.3 kg
2. Not sure you are going to save 1kg on many frames, Scott Lumen frame is already under 2kg ! - admittedly that's very light - Orbea Rise is circa 2.3kg I think.
3. Shimano EP8 is already 2.6kg,

So I think the battery is definitely where it is at for weight saving if we can get density down to a 600Wh for 2kg + a 2kg FF motor you are looking at FF for the current Fazua ride 60 weights - something like the the Focus Jam 2 SL. That would be pretty awesome I'd be really happy with that!

 

[galaga187]

Musk is (for obvious reasons) wedded to Lithium battery tech whereas hydrogen fuel cells are the better technology especially since there is not enough Lithium to be sustainable.

Out on a ride with a group of riders waiting for the one early adopter riding hydrogen

 

[G-Sport]

2. Light frames (using pre-preg perhaps?) could save ~1kg (most of the weight of 'carbon' is resin).

Nearly every carbon frame on the market is going to be made from pre-preg already.

I think a big factor is who you ride with. I'm one of the first of my group of riders to get an Ebike, so when riding with a group on meat-bikes it is definitely good to be on a lightweight low-power bike so you can feel like you are actually getting a ride at the group pace and can cope with all the same route choices including hike-a-bike. I can see how riding with full power riders would make having a lightweight low power a bad choice.

Another factor for me is being able to bunnyhop trail obstacles. Can you guys with 25kg bikes get them into the air properly with a bunnyhop? (just as one example) There is a very strange motorbike-trap/gate thing on one of my regular routes that is a low steel bar about a foot high, which is a comfortable hopping height, it would suck to have to stop and lift over this.

 

[irie]

Nearly every carbon frame on the market is going to be made from pre-preg already.

I didn't want to get tech about this ^^^ so didn't mention the use of autoclaves and other techniques involved in squeezing out the optimal amount of resin that I saw when researching for windsurf board production in the 90's.

 

[fenwick458]

by the time my Wild FS needs replacing I may be in the market for a lightweight. what I have now is enough power and range, so I certainly don't need any more power.