What % of assist is everyone using?
- Thread starter Portland 29er
- Start date
Yes, that's probably right, and that was my question, because when I started reading the thread on understanding power settings etc, I started questioning the info I initially got from the dealer, where I understood it to be a "shuttle" mode button, so that whatever mode / settings you had for the 3 levels in the app, that button would take you directly to 100/100 + 100% shuttle... hence my question if that one button would be like a 4th mode in addition to the Eco - trail- Turbo regardless of the settings on those 3...
Unfortunately it seems it does not then... (I would actually have liked that, to have access to 100% max support via 1 button on the few occasions you want it, rather than having to go into the settings and enable 100% shuttle + 100/100 which I would normally not have any mode configured for as far as I can see.)
So one more question then:
As this seems to be the "turbo button" I assume it just brings you to the Turbo mode you have set in the app? Basically just saving you 1 click on the remote? And changing the turbo mode settings in the app would impact this button just as it will the turbo mode enabled by clicking "up" 2 - 3 times on the "normal" selector buttons?
If so it kind of seems a waste to me to be honest...?
Correct.. It's like a "shortcut" so you don't have to click up twice from eco.. if you were in trail it would only be one click to turbo anyway. If you don't have the energy left to pedal in eco, you probably don't have the energy to press a button twice with your thumb - though it's quite difficult to reach, so you might pull a thumb tendon.
I'm guessing they did it as a function button for future use, but assigned it as "turbo" so it had a purpose for now..
If you don't have the energy left to pedal in eco, you probably don't have the energy to press a button twice with your thumb - though it's quite difficult to reach, so you might pull a thumb tendon.
Haha yeah probably
Just turbo mode not shuttle. Like the other gurus have said, shuttle is only activated via the app.
Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
That just takes it directly to Turbo - as it says in the manual. Several dealers I talked to before I bought my Levo call it the Panic Button - for when you come around a corner and find a sharp climb with no time for double changing (which is how Specialized explained it to them at the bikes release).
Ah well Yeah I guess the dealer was not fully up to speed calling it shuttle mode button then.
I do still wish it would have worked that way though. being a means of altering shuttle setting on the fly.
And here I was thinking that S was for "souped up"
Yeah I guess the dealer was not fully up to speed calling it shuttle mode button then. I do still wish it would have worked that way though. being a means of altering shuttle setting on the fly.
And here I was thinking that S was for "souped up"
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
I disagree, it is the Shuttle mode. Shuttle settings are not affecting any of the modes. Acceleration does. Shuttle is a mode to itself. Shuttle mode only requires a touch to the pedal to activate assistance, whereas
Turbo requires sufficient torque to be applied to activate. + and - buttons switch through the three modes, the pictured button with the specialized logo switches mode to the shuttle setting immediately, not Turbo.
Turbo requires sufficient torque to be applied to activate. + and - buttons switch through the three modes, the pictured button with the specialized logo switches mode to the shuttle setting immediately, not Turbo.
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
No, percentage is shuttle response, does one want it to hit 100% immediately or gradually. It will spin the wheel hard at 100%.
Jeff H
Well-known member
Nope. Dealer is wrong. Read the manual and you’ll see it’s for directly jumping to turbo mode. That’s the Specialized “S” logo, not S for shuttle. I wish it was shuttle, btw.
Last edited:
I used shuttle yesterday for first time think it was too steep and looser than I thought so maybe not best conditions. If I use shuttle do i change the settings on eco trail etc ? And what about acceleration setting . I watched utube video before i went out and fiddled with the settings took a few stops to get it ok I was finding not a lot of difference between eco and the other modes. I need to play around with the settings a bit more I think.
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
Dang it, I’m wrong. However, I’ve learned more about Shuttle than I’ll use. Sorry and thanks for the corrections.
It always seemed pointless having a turbo button, when pressing up twice would take you there.
Back on topic, power is typically:
15/45/75
Mine doesn't have the ability to vary power at each level, just percentage assist, assume it's a firmware thing, but this works OK for me.
Back on topic, power is typically:
15/45/75
Mine doesn't have the ability to vary power at each level, just percentage assist, assume it's a firmware thing, but this works OK for me.
Just when you think you are understanding it you read the rest of the threads. As clear as mud but getting there.
Maybe this will help:-
The amount of power delivered by the motor at any given time is dependant on how many amps it draws from the battery. That has to be controlled by a software program. Clearly power delivery has to graduated to make it feel natural and controllable. In addition some simple rules have to be applied. The motor must only deliver power when the bike is peddled and must stop delivering power when the bike speed reaches 25kph (uk). To enable those criterea the bike is fitted with crank torque sensor and a speed sensor. Those sensors also enable the programmer to write code such that the amperage drawn from the battery increases propotionate to the amount of torque the sensor measures at the crank. The Brose motor is also fitted with a cadence (crank rotation speed) sensor ehich gives the engineer another parameter to use in the algorithm. So for example initial getaway can be made easier by increasing amperage to the motor when both speed and cadence are very low but thereafter torque becomes the dominant factor. Cadence can also then be used to allow more amperage draw in line with the natural torque curve of the motor to encourage cadence in the range where the motor is most efficient (50+).
Now it gets a little more complex as a program. The designers want there to be 3 preset modes each of which produce different riding characteristics. Remember the only thing the program can control is amperage drawn from the battery and data from 3 sensors.
So a mode is created where the user defines two parameters. First, maximum power. Using simple maths if the brose 2.1 is capable of delivering 4 times the torque power it senses delivered at the crank by the rider, setting a mode to 50% max power would limit that power delivery to twice the rider torque input. That would save battery but also may improve traction. Subject to that max setting the full 4 times rider input is available. However, because the amlunt of power delivered is largely governed by rider torque input it becomes progressively harder to access full power. So another preset is added....pedal assist. The main requirement here is to creatr a zone within the mode where power from the motor requires less rider torque input to access. The programmer can write code to increase amperage delivered to the motor with lower rider torqur input as measured by the torque sensor. The higher the % set for pedal assist the more amperage draw is assigned to a given torque input.
The programme enables 3 such modes to be preset and selected when riding either on the TCU or handlebar remote.
Not satisfied with what is already a compehensive set of controls the designers want some additional features. Firstly they want the ability for a rider to be able to get more power at slower speeds and low cadence....ie to be able to accelerate quicker. The programmer therefore adds a means of altering the existing software algorithm across all preset modes to enable more amperage delivery to the motor when both speed and cadence sensors have low readings....typically at start off or from circumstances where bike speed has significantly decreased. The degree of effect is controlled by using a % slider in MC called Acceration and will apply in all modes.
The next scenario the designers want to add is the option to be able to ride with minimal rider torque input yet with good mltor power support. In sensor terms this means increasing the amperage drawn by the motor despite ridrr torque input being low. The programmer implements this by adding another universal % slider in MC called Shuttle. When this is set at a % other than 0% the balance previously applied in the power delivery algorithm between rider torque input and cadence is altered such that less torque is required for any given amperage draw provided cadence is relatively high. This also means bike speed is likely to be fairly low. So the scenario is typically a long drag up a continuous slope....as in using a fireroad to return to the trail head after a downhill run in a trail centre. The effect will be minimal leg strain to climb the slope but a high cadence in a low gear and therefore a fairly slow pace.
The amount of power delivered by the motor at any given time is dependant on how many amps it draws from the battery. That has to be controlled by a software program. Clearly power delivery has to graduated to make it feel natural and controllable. In addition some simple rules have to be applied. The motor must only deliver power when the bike is peddled and must stop delivering power when the bike speed reaches 25kph (uk). To enable those criterea the bike is fitted with crank torque sensor and a speed sensor. Those sensors also enable the programmer to write code such that the amperage drawn from the battery increases propotionate to the amount of torque the sensor measures at the crank. The Brose motor is also fitted with a cadence (crank rotation speed) sensor ehich gives the engineer another parameter to use in the algorithm. So for example initial getaway can be made easier by increasing amperage to the motor when both speed and cadence are very low but thereafter torque becomes the dominant factor. Cadence can also then be used to allow more amperage draw in line with the natural torque curve of the motor to encourage cadence in the range where the motor is most efficient (50+).
Now it gets a little more complex as a program. The designers want there to be 3 preset modes each of which produce different riding characteristics. Remember the only thing the program can control is amperage drawn from the battery and data from 3 sensors.
So a mode is created where the user defines two parameters. First, maximum power. Using simple maths if the brose 2.1 is capable of delivering 4 times the torque power it senses delivered at the crank by the rider, setting a mode to 50% max power would limit that power delivery to twice the rider torque input. That would save battery but also may improve traction. Subject to that max setting the full 4 times rider input is available. However, because the amlunt of power delivered is largely governed by rider torque input it becomes progressively harder to access full power. So another preset is added....pedal assist. The main requirement here is to creatr a zone within the mode where power from the motor requires less rider torque input to access. The programmer can write code to increase amperage delivered to the motor with lower rider torqur input as measured by the torque sensor. The higher the % set for pedal assist the more amperage draw is assigned to a given torque input.
The programme enables 3 such modes to be preset and selected when riding either on the TCU or handlebar remote.
Not satisfied with what is already a compehensive set of controls the designers want some additional features. Firstly they want the ability for a rider to be able to get more power at slower speeds and low cadence....ie to be able to accelerate quicker. The programmer therefore adds a means of altering the existing software algorithm across all preset modes to enable more amperage delivery to the motor when both speed and cadence sensors have low readings....typically at start off or from circumstances where bike speed has significantly decreased. The degree of effect is controlled by using a % slider in MC called Acceration and will apply in all modes.
The next scenario the designers want to add is the option to be able to ride with minimal rider torque input yet with good mltor power support. In sensor terms this means increasing the amperage drawn by the motor despite ridrr torque input being low. The programmer implements this by adding another universal % slider in MC called Shuttle. When this is set at a % other than 0% the balance previously applied in the power delivery algorithm between rider torque input and cadence is altered such that less torque is required for any given amperage draw provided cadence is relatively high. This also means bike speed is likely to be fairly low. So the scenario is typically a long drag up a continuous slope....as in using a fireroad to return to the trail head after a downhill run in a trail centre. The effect will be minimal leg strain to climb the slope but a high cadence in a low gear and therefore a fairly slow pace.
Jeff H
Well-known member
Me too. Max assist pretty much everywhere. I like going fast as I can (it's all relative and I'm pretty much a slug). wish I had more boost. I ride em cause they are fun, and the exercise is just a benifit of having fun. As soon as I start looking at my times, or start to consider a little more suffering for the greater good... I stop wanting to ride hours everyday.
That is so cool! My first motorcycle was a 78 yamaha mxgt 80. I was 8 years old.
couplands
Member
As a few folks say in your thread, making the "Turbo" button programmable to be Shuttle mode would be a great hack.
Anyone capable of doing that..?
If anyone can that would be super cool, though I doubt it is possible for anyone but Specialized themselves
@Rob Hancill Maybe a good idea for feedback to Specialized? I suppose you have more contacts than most us to successfully make it reach the right set of ears?
Or if someone from @Specialized Rider Care actually reads posts on this forum...
Not necessarily change it and hard coding it to be 100/100 + 100% shuttle, but at least introduce it as an option in the Specialized app? Or at least an option for it to adjust % shuttle mode on the fly instead of just being a 1 click saver for whatever Turbo mode you have configured?
wrayb
Member
Mike, thanks! I am still trying to understand shuttle and acceleration modes and I believe your explanation helps. But let me see if I really understand...so let's say I am exiting a turn into an uphill section and I want to gain as much speed as possible as quickly as possible with as little effort on my part as possible...so I will typically be coasting through the apex of the turn then begin to pedal with a low cadence...as I begin to pedal the "acceleration" setting would have the most affect on power delivery to (and from) the motor (the higher the acceleration setting the more power it will deliver and the faster I will go)...the "shuttle" setting would not kick in until my cadence increased to some level (around 80 or more???) and would require less torque to deliver more power at that cadence. Is that true?
If that is true it would explain why I can't see any difference in 0% and 100% on the shuttle setting when I have acceleration at 100% and the assist and peak setting both at 100% because when I get to a high cadence the acceleration and assist have already kicked the motor up to max power anyway so shuttle really has no affect.
Would it be correct to say shuttle would be most noticeable when I have acceleration at 0%, a low assist setting (say 25%) and a high peak setting? So when I slowly bring the cadence up the assistance would be low when I apply torque to the pedals and the power from the motor would not be at peak...but when I get the cadence up to 80 (just a guess here) or higher the motor would go to peak power without increasing torque to the pedals?
Am I right? close? totally off?
If that is true it would explain why I can't see any difference in 0% and 100% on the shuttle setting when I have acceleration at 100% and the assist and peak setting both at 100% because when I get to a high cadence the acceleration and assist have already kicked the motor up to max power anyway so shuttle really has no affect.
Would it be correct to say shuttle would be most noticeable when I have acceleration at 0%, a low assist setting (say 25%) and a high peak setting? So when I slowly bring the cadence up the assistance would be low when I apply torque to the pedals and the power from the motor would not be at peak...but when I get the cadence up to 80 (just a guess here) or higher the motor would go to peak power without increasing torque to the pedals?
Am I right? close? totally off?
Billywhizz
New Member
Have you tried using mid or high modes and trying to keep it on the 15mph max, you will have a fun and fast workout with your heart jumping out of your chest. IMO people are missing out on the benefits of the E bike, ride them like a road bike, don't stop spinning and pushing on, it's great fun, believe me.
Billywhizz
New Member
Couldn't agree more, that's the way to have fun.
It takes some experimentation because clearly there is a risk of overlap of the various settings you use. In general I would say shuttle is not something you would use for elements of a ride where there variances in speed and terrain. It is most functional for a straightforward ride up a fireroad where speed is constant albeit fairly low and the only interest is in getting back to the top with least effort. When doing the downhill section very little if any pedalling is needed so shuttle with have no effect then.
I would only set accelerate above 0% for the kind of ride that involved a lot of hard braking to slow speeds only to want to accelerate again. That might for example be a fairly flat but very tight and twisty single track. I don't do bike parks/trail centres and on the forest trails/downhills and singletracks I mostly do I have found no reason to set either acceleration or shuttle on anything other than zero. Use of the gears and the different modes is sufficient to tackle all I typically encounter. In the situation where you are suddenly faced with a short but steep climb I would just switch straight to Turbo for that short climb....or if as usual on a downhill I am in eco , a switch to trail may be enough if I have enough speed plus if there is time a change to a lower gear.
Jeff H
Well-known member
Try shuttle with a low support mode on level pavement, say close to default eco. Pedal with light pressure and reasonable cadence. Even at 40% shuttle it’s very noticeable. The bike effortless glides along without lurching on each power stroke like in turbo. I use it for riding back home on flat trails or pavement after my fun in the hills.
Let's keep the maths easy. So let's say the motor is capable of 100nm. Let's work with just one setting as all Eco/Trail/Turbo is/are just motor settings or individual numbers given to Eco/Trail/Turbo rather like the memory seats in your car, just they have a name rather than a number. Your TURBO could be 15%/15% for example. I've worked several worked examples below which are just variations on the numbers. I hope it makes sense..Don't get to carried away with the actual numbers in terms of accuracy, I use them to make a point.
We have two settings in this example and that are primarily tunable in the app and most people ask about:
1. Assist
2. Peak Power
So with your Eco at say: 20%/ 20%. So that's 20% Assist. 20% Peak Power
Rider puts a force in at the pedal of 100nm.
1. Assist is 20% of 100nm (your strong legs pushing the pedals!) = Bike wants to assist 20nm
2. Peak Power is 20% of 100nm (max motor output) = Peak Power available to give you or maximum the motor will help you at the setting dialed is 20nm
All in all 120nm of torque.
All good?
Rider puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 20% of 200nm = 40nm requested but now limited by bikes peak power of the max output of the motor from our settings, despite being capable of more..
2. 20% of 100nm = 20nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 220nm.
Still with me? You increased your output but the bike only gave you the max output you set it, despite being capable of more.
Lets bump up the Peak Power, keep the assist the same.
Assist remain at 20% Peak power at 50%
Take example 1.
Rider puts in at the pedal 100nm.
1. 20% of 100nm = Bike requests assist 20nm
2. 50% of 100nm (max motor output) = Bike can give you 50, but 20% assist is 20.
All in all 120nm of torque. Same output as before, just capable when needed of more if you up the torque..
Example 2.
Rider puts in more effort this time.
Rider puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 20% of 200nm = 40nm request to the motor.
2. 50% of 100nm (max output available is 50 nm) = 50nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 250nm.
Now let us change it to 50% Assist /50% Peak Power
Example 1.
Rider puts in at the pedal 100nm as our first example.
1. 50% of 100nm = Bike assist request to the motor 50nm
2. 50% of 100nm (max motor output) = Peak Power available to give you or maximum the motor will help you is 50nm.
Output 150Nm rider & bike. With me?
Example 2.
Rider goes for it again and puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 50% of 200nm = 100nm request from the motor.
2. 50% of 100nm (max output) = 50nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 250nm.
I hope you can see it's very much a tune, as to how you want the input pedal force to motor response.
So Assist is what the motor will possibly kick you with up the bum with from your input torque, up to a maximum of the peak power, which is how much you've let it.
You can have it push you along more or assist you more but Assist vs Peak power is important in terms of the feel of the bike. A low Assist but high peak power will mean if your really pushing hard the bike will keep giving you power etc.
Acceleration essentially is how fast the motor delivers this power, in race situations or when you want fast pickup this is desirable but there is also motor overrun which is not ideal and makes the bike feel unnatural..
Shuttle essentially bypasses the assist level or rider input torque meaning you just get whatever the peak power setting is for that level you have selected. It's 0 or 100% and is the same across all three modes so it's on or off...Annoyingly you have to get the app out to trigger this..Don't forget to switch it off..!! You just need to turn the pedals so it effectively does not measure the input torque.
The S button defo is not a shuttle setting much as I wish it was or it would be better to have that as a 100/100 whatever your settings are but alas it's not available in the motor firmware apparently.
Hope this helps..
We have two settings in this example and that are primarily tunable in the app and most people ask about:
1. Assist
2. Peak Power
So with your Eco at say: 20%/ 20%. So that's 20% Assist. 20% Peak Power
Rider puts a force in at the pedal of 100nm.
1. Assist is 20% of 100nm (your strong legs pushing the pedals!) = Bike wants to assist 20nm
2. Peak Power is 20% of 100nm (max motor output) = Peak Power available to give you or maximum the motor will help you at the setting dialed is 20nm
All in all 120nm of torque.
All good?
Rider puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 20% of 200nm = 40nm requested but now limited by bikes peak power of the max output of the motor from our settings, despite being capable of more..
2. 20% of 100nm = 20nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 220nm.
Still with me? You increased your output but the bike only gave you the max output you set it, despite being capable of more.
Lets bump up the Peak Power, keep the assist the same.
Assist remain at 20% Peak power at 50%
Take example 1.
Rider puts in at the pedal 100nm.
1. 20% of 100nm = Bike requests assist 20nm
2. 50% of 100nm (max motor output) = Bike can give you 50, but 20% assist is 20.
All in all 120nm of torque. Same output as before, just capable when needed of more if you up the torque..
Example 2.
Rider puts in more effort this time.
Rider puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 20% of 200nm = 40nm request to the motor.
2. 50% of 100nm (max output available is 50 nm) = 50nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 250nm.
Now let us change it to 50% Assist /50% Peak Power
Example 1.
Rider puts in at the pedal 100nm as our first example.
1. 50% of 100nm = Bike assist request to the motor 50nm
2. 50% of 100nm (max motor output) = Peak Power available to give you or maximum the motor will help you is 50nm.
Output 150Nm rider & bike. With me?
Example 2.
Rider goes for it again and puts in at the pedal 200nm
1. 50% of 200nm = 100nm request from the motor.
2. 50% of 100nm (max output) = 50nm from the motor.
Total rider plus bike 250nm.
I hope you can see it's very much a tune, as to how you want the input pedal force to motor response.
So Assist is what the motor will possibly kick you with up the bum with from your input torque, up to a maximum of the peak power, which is how much you've let it.
You can have it push you along more or assist you more but Assist vs Peak power is important in terms of the feel of the bike. A low Assist but high peak power will mean if your really pushing hard the bike will keep giving you power etc.
Acceleration essentially is how fast the motor delivers this power, in race situations or when you want fast pickup this is desirable but there is also motor overrun which is not ideal and makes the bike feel unnatural..
Shuttle essentially bypasses the assist level or rider input torque meaning you just get whatever the peak power setting is for that level you have selected. It's 0 or 100% and is the same across all three modes so it's on or off...Annoyingly you have to get the app out to trigger this..Don't forget to switch it off..!! You just need to turn the pedals so it effectively does not measure the input torque.
The S button defo is not a shuttle setting much as I wish it was or it would be better to have that as a 100/100 whatever your settings are but alas it's not available in the motor firmware apparently.
Hope this helps..
Last edited:
Similar threads
EMTB Forums
Latest articles
-
Santa Cruz Vala X0 review - a new approach to perfection?
The new Vala is Santa Cruz’ first attempt on a Bosch-powered emtb. Like...- Knut Nes
- 6 min read
- Views: 706
- Reaction score: 3
- Comments: 2
-
A new standard for charging ebikes is coming? A quick interview with Bosch - charge2bike
I had a quick chat with dr Vikram Godbole about "charge2bike", a new...- Knut Nes
- 2 min read
- Views: 820
- Reaction score: 7
- Comments: 4