What differences between 65 nm and 80 nm torque?

[FoxAdriano]

Hi, I'm approaching e-bike world for a short time and I would like to ask a few questions.
I know there are some e-bikes with 65 nm and other e-bikes with 85 nm.
I give you an example:
Cannondale Tesoro Neo X 2 has Bosch Performance Line CX 250W drive-unit with 80 nm torque
Cannondale Tesoro Neo X 3 has Bosch Performance Line 250W drive-unit with 65 nm torque
My question:
if you use the e-bike in off-road, I understad 80 nm torque is better for climbing mountain trails.
But if you use an e-bike in town on city streets, what could 65 nm torque give you more?
Did the manufacturers put this engine because it is cheaper, or because in the city it can give you more satisfaction?
I'd like to understand better,
thanks you for some info.

 

[panaphonic]

15.

 

[FoxAdriano]

?

 

[salko]

The only benefit in less torque I can imagine is that the motor is under less stress so it might last a bit longer, but since you tend to use it on city streets only you might never take advantage of 80Nm anyways ...

 

[FoxAdriano]

I thank you for the answer, but I already knew it. I asked another question. I liked to know if in practice I have advantages in the city or with 65 nm torque. Anyway thanks anyway.

 

[salko]

No.

 

[FoxAdriano]

But do I have no benefits even on the city streets uphill? If so, I understand that the manufacturer put it only for cost reasons.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Sadly manufacturers torque really is difficult to compare apples to apples. There's no mention of where the torque is measured from, how it is measured, what RPM it is measured at, etc etc.

As RPM increases, torque decreases. So one manufacturer may quote a torque of 85Nm at 50 rpm. But that is not 85nm at 100 rpm. There is no standard here, so manufacturers can quote whatever they want to fit their narrative.

We are caught up in the marketing figures and there's no way of benchmarking one against another at the moment, other than getting on each bike and riding them and seeing how they feel. Obviously this is not scientific at all, but the best benchmark I've found so far.

 

[nickfrog]

The power is limited to 250w anyway so there will be a cadence where the torque difference will be of no effect. Granted there will be a difference on the way there but the basic equation of Power = torque x cadence remains true and often misunderstood.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

The power is limited to 250w anyway so there will be a cadence where the torque difference will be of no effect. Granted there will be a difference on the way there but the basic equation of Power = torque x cadence remains true and often misunderstood.

The power is a nominal 250W which is manufacturer speak for staying in line with the law. In reality they peak MUCH higher than this.

 

[nickfrog]

The power is a nominal 250W which is manufacturer speak for staying in line with the law. In reality they peak MUCH higher than this.

Interesting stuff Rob. How do you see/measure peak power?

 

[FoxAdriano]

You all are right but I only considered the Cannondale, so apples can be compared to apples. I'm wrong?

Then, I think those engines have a different cost and this would explain many things. .

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Interesting stuff Rob. How do you see/measure peak power?

Some manufacturers quote it. Most don't.

This is worth a watch:

 

[jimbob]

The fact I managed to drain most of a 500wh battery in 2hrs the other day shows that they must draw on average over 250w (on a shimano E7000) as it wasn't working at 100% for all that time (mixture of uphill and downhill where the motor wasnt working at all).

 

[maynard]

80 is better

 

[salko]

80 is better

He already know that, but he I asked another question.

 

[FoxAdriano]

80 is better

I don't want to be rude. But what kind of answers are given in this forum? ahahahaha

 

[Zimmerframe]

I don't want to be rude. But what kind of answers are given in this forum? ahahahaha

Often, if you're lucky, a lot of rude ones .. so you'll be fitting right in

if you use the e-bike in off-road, I understad 80 nm torque is better for climbing mountain trails.
But if you use an e-bike in town on city streets, what could 65 nm torque give you more?
Did the manufacturers put this engine because it is cheaper, or because in the city it can give you more satisfaction?

I don't think you're getting the answers you want because of how you've asked your question - and the audience you're asking to - MTBers .. More power is better, unless the package being offered is significantly lighter - but even that's a personal preference thing.

If you're actually considering one of the two bikes and looking at the whole picture rather than just one aspect, then the "3" for only €300 more offers a lot more, including a 625wh battery rather than a 500wh battery. So, would that give you more in the city ? yes, you could go further or charge less frequently .. in theory.. If you rode both bikes around on the highest power setting, then range would be much of a muchness but you'd have gone faster, be less sweaty and have a bigger smile on the CX bike ..

The none CX motor is possible setup to give more torque - more efficiently at lower cadences. They restrict it even further to 50nm if it has hub gears for another example.

However, if there's a vote for which answer to this thread is best, then my vote goes to "15" .. It's always nice to see a Kiwi using their fingers AND toes when performing complex arithmetic.

 

[steve_sordy]

Power equals torque x cadence (provided you use the correct units).
Energy = power x time (provided you use the correct units).

Battery size is usually quoted in Whr (which is a measure of energy). Whr is short for Watts x hours. So 500whr will deliver 250W for 2 hours. The average power output on a pedal assist ebike is 250W. This is the law in the EU and it allows you to drive without licence and insurance. It also allows you to ride the bike on trails that prohibit motorised vehicles (in the UK at least).

There is a gap in the law and the definition that allows the motor to provide more than 250W for short periods. So for example, it could provide 500W for one hour and still satisfy the EU law. But as you have seen, use twice the power, get half the life.

Where does torque come into this? Torque is measured in Newton metres (Nm). A torque of 98.1Nm is delivered by hanging a 10kg weight on to the end of a one metre lever. That is equivalent to 20kg on the end of a half metre lever and 60.6kg on the end of a crank 165mm long.

That is a lot of torque to apply to your cranks, it is two thirds of my riding weight for example. I used to be able to do that (I think) but I certainly can't now because I have arthritic knees. My emtb helps me to make up the difference by multiplying what I put in. So if I have my motor set to double what I put in (basic Trail setting for example), then if I put in the equivalent of 30.3 kg on the pedal (47Nm), it will add the same. By choosing which mode, I can get the motor to increase that assist level for short periods, allowing me to put in less.

As I wrote above, power = torque x cadence but the motor cannot provide constant power, or the torque would reach infinity as the cadence falls to zero and something would break. Different motors have a different power vs cadence curves and a different torque vs cadence curves. This is why it is advisable to do a test ride. You may prefer one motor over another because of the way it delivers the power and the torque at the range of cadences and pedal pressures you like to use; I sure did!

So if two bikes both have the same weight, same battery energy, but one motor has 65Nm max torque and the other has 80Nm max, what will happen and how will it feel? The first thing is that because one motor is supplying less peak torque, it will use less power at the same cadence, even if you are really piling on the pressure. Therefore the battery energy will last longer. A motor with less peak torque is forcing you to do more of the work, which is why the battery will last longer and give you more range.

But do you really NEED that extra 15Nm of torque? If you are commuting or riding somewhere fairly flat then no you probably won't (unless your knees are really shot!) But that extra 15Nm may come in handy occasionally, so why don't the manufacturers provide it anyway? Well, it is a matter of designing a product for the function required. IF you are not going to be climbing steep hills, why provide a big and heavy battery, with a big strong motor that adds weight and cost when they are just not required. Yes, it makes the bike cheaper, but that does not make the bike worse, it just makes it more appropriate for the required use. Why have 170mm of suspension travel front and rear on a commuter bike? Same argument, it's a matter of what is the best specification of the intended purpose.

The reduced torque will lead to reduced power consumption, which will give a bigger range. You may not need that range, which will mean that a smaller and lighter battery can be used, which means the bike is lighter and easier to use (and will improve the range).
The reduced torque may mean that you have to press harder on the pedals from time to time to get to the speed you want as fast as you want, but just use the gears a bit more.

 

[FoxAdriano]

>If you're actually considering one of the two bikes and looking at the whole picture rather than just one aspect, then the "3" for only €300 more offers a lot more,

Do you mean "the 2"? Have your friends from the Forum contaminated you? ahahahaha
Anyway now I understand better, thank you for your reply.

 

[FoxAdriano]

The reduced torque will lead to reduced power consumption, which will give a bigger range. You may not need that range, which will mean that a smaller and lighter battery can be used, which means the bike is lighter and easier to use (and will improve the range).
The reduced torque may mean that you have to press harder on the pedals from time to time to get to the speed you want as fast as you want, but just use the gears a bit more.

Dear Steve, your reply clreared my ideas, I thnk you so much!!!!
I need to write the last my considerations:
I'm 66 years old and I have to buy an e-bike looking to the future.
I live in a city with many ups and downs.
I like doing dirt country roads too. So I think the Cannondale Tesoro Neo X 2 is better for me.
But I can't try them because no retailer has them in their shop. I have to challenge the theory and place an order, then the my e-bike will arrive after 2-3 months.
I'd like to buy the 2021 model which has a 625Wh battery but ...... have you seen the colors of the new model? I'm getting stomach cramps.
I like graphite or black colour, but I should buy the 2020 model only if I like those colours, but the 2020 model has a 500 Wh battery. ufff
Moral of the story: tonight I will not sleep.

You who have much more experience than me, can you tell me which of the two e-bikes you like best?
This:

Tesoro X 2

Nel cuore di questa e-bike sportiva per l’uso quotidiano batte l’istinto selvaggio dell’esploratore. Grazie alla sua notevole autonomia, componenti resistenti e gomme adatte a qualsiasi terreno, Tesoro X è la bici perfetta per essere utilizzata sia durante la settimana che nei weekend.

www.cannondale.com

Or this one?

CUBE PRODUKT ARCHIV | 2021

CUBE PRODUKT ARCHIV

www.cube.eu

Thanks for your precious news.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have only spent a few minutes looking at the bikes, but I would prefer the CUBE to the Tesoro Neo X2. The biggest single reason is the presence of an air fork instead of a coil fork. Using a shock pump (about £25), you will be able to set up the fork to suit your weight and how you want to ride the bike. The black is a lot nicer than that orange to my eyes. You have to feel good about the bike, so that you will ride it.

Other will have their views too and their reasons, it will be good to see what they are.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Do you mean "the 2"? Have your friends from the Forum contaminated you? ahahahaha
Anyway now I understand better, thank you for your reply.

I did ... but it felt so wrong to suggest to someone to take a no.2 ... especially as you think we're rude already !

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'm 66 years old and I have to buy an e-bike looking to the future.
I live in a city with many ups and downs.
I like doing dirt country roads too.

Buying any e-bike is about balancing compromises ... there will be no perfect bike, but whatever you buy will probably do everything you want and better than you expected. We all end up worrying that we're making the wrong decision, but it's not necessarily about right and wrong.

Have you considered a full suspension bike

 

[FoxAdriano]

Have you considered a full suspension bike

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand what you mean by "a full suspension bike ". Could you attach a pic please?
Anyway I need to tell you the roads that I will travel so that you understand better and can advise me better:
roads in my city with many ups and downs, dirt and very bumpy country roads, sometimes uphill. I rarely cross a field, and nothing complicated or difficult.

EDIT: Steve, you can'r prefer the CUBE to the Tesoro Neo X2 only because it uses an air fork instead of a coil fork. You must also like it aesthetically. Be sincere, do you like the cannondale or the Cube more aesthetically?
I'm asking you this because I like Cube too, but I like Cannondale a bit more. But my taste is that of a guy not used to seeing nice e-bkes.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand what you mean by "a full suspension bike ". Could you attach a pic please?
Anyway I need to tell you the roads that I will travel so that you understand better and can advise me better:
roads in my city with many ups and downs, dirt and very bumpy country roads, sometimes uphill. I rarely cross a field, and nothing complicated or difficult.

I was more being difficult by trying to make your decission making process more complicated than it needs to be

The X2, for instance, is what's called a "Hardtail" . It's got front suspension but no rear suspension.

A "Full Suspension" bike has front and rear suspension ..

You said this :

I like doing dirt country roads too.

.... somewhere inside us still hides a child .. we can't help but try to ride somewhere a bit more interesting .. before you know it .. you wish you'd bought a full suspension bike

Probably best not go down that route.. It will just complicate things more than it needs to !!!! and then you'll find yourself in the Decathlon Stilus thread ..

 

[steve_sordy]

...........

EDIT: Steve, you can'r prefer the CUBE to the Tesoro Neo X2 only because it uses an air fork instead of a coil fork. You must also like it aesthetically. Be sincere, do you like the cannondale or the Cube more aesthetically?
I'm asking you this because I like Cube too, but I like Cannondale a bit more. But my taste is that of a guy not used to seeing nice e-bkes.

I said that the black is a lot nicer to my eyes. I have stated previously on this Forum that I will not buy a bike if it looks ugly to me. I must have a bike (car/woman....) that has the "look back factor". In other words, when I walk away do I look back at it in admiration? Or do I just walk away!

@FoxAdriano Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I cannot see things through your eyes.

You should buy the one that makes you look back at it in admiration. You will ride it more and you will look after it better.

If you absolutely cannot make up your mind, assign each bike to one side of a coin and toss that coin. When you see the result ask yourself "Am I pleased?" If not, buy the other one!

Edit: If you want to see a nice emtb, that is also a full suspension bike and is also geared more towards lighter trails but still has plenty of capacity for you to grow as an off-roader, then look no further than the Focus Thron2

Focus Thron2 6.7 2021 Electric Full Sus Mountain Bike Mineral Gre

 

[Zimmerframe]

If you absolutely cannot make up your mind, assign each bike to one side of a coin and toss that coin. When you see the result ask yourself "Am I pleased?" If not, buy the other one!

Edit: If you want to see a nice emtb, that is also a full suspension bike and is also geared more towards lighter trails but still has plenty of capacity for you to grow as an off-roader, then look no further than the Focus Thron2

If you're going to spend all his money for him, at least have the decency to buy him a dice to throw to replace his now useless coin !

 

[FoxAdriano]

Dear Steve,
I'd like to buy only equipped e-bikes, so I fell in love with this e-bike:

AVENTURA² | 2020 - 2022 Bosch | FOCUS Bikes

FOCUS Bikes is the leading premium brand of high end mountain bikes and road bikes with excellent quality - German Engineered for amateur athletes and professionals!

www.focus-bikes.com

It is so nice, but I don't know if Focus brand is good like Cannondale or Cube.
Could you tell me if that e-bike is good like Tesoro Neo X 2 or Cube Kathmandu Hybrid Pro 625?
I went to the Cube dealer a few days ago and he told me that Cube Kathmandu Hybrid Pro 625 is coming in December. For this reason I wanted to buy Cannondale.
What a pity!!! You have to pay a lot of money and you can't buy or it's hard to buy the e-bike you want.
I'm looking for an e-bike that is above all comfortable even in the city and with a good driving position and I believe that Cube can give me what I'm looking for.
I thank you for your precious help!

EDIT: Usually is it better to buy 27" or 29" wheel size? Which of the two sizes are more comfortable?

 

[John Beedham]

The Performance Line will be great for flatter terrain. The advantage of a motor producing less torque is that it will consume less power from your battery so theoretically you will ride further on your battery. The fact gets lost sometimes that assistance from the motor cuts out at 25 kph (except Nth America), so more torque is only really useful if you are going up steep inclines. Riding high torque e-mtbs on flatter terrain just gets you to the speed at which assistance ceases quicker. I have owed and been riding e-mtbs (Bosch and Shimano) since 2015 and have a little over 10000ks riding on them either going up or coming down...not much flat!