Water ingress and multiple other issues on 2020 trance E+3

[cappuccino34]

Actually, see the little purple wire in your battery connector picture? That goes to a spliced joint to the batter + output (red) wire. It isn't waterproof on the splice. It goes up to the red two-way JST up by the front lights connector, and isn't essential because not all bikes have it. That got the chop on mine.

 

[cappuccino34]

The green and brown wires are the same, but they're essential for the operation of the bike.

 

[cappuccino34]

 

[cappuccino34]

That's what you see on the green and brown wires, it's the CAN bus communication between the 'nodes' (battery, motor and RC1)

 

[cappuccino34]

This is one of only four connectors on my bike now.
There's the RC1 connector at the top, the battery 'power' to the motor, the battery 'Comms' to the loom joining the motor/RC1 and one for the lights which is currently unused.

 

[cappuccino34]

Sorry, the speed sensor one as well, which is up inside the seat tube out of harm's way.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Thanks for taking the time to illustrate all this mate, I for one certainly appreciate it and will be making damn good use of the info.
Love your MIL spec connector down there! You have gone to some bloody effort here (That GIANT should ahve done for you)

Dare I ask...
Is your bike working fine when its wet now then? No more issues? Can even wash it?

I still cant always get away with washing mine.
If i use a hosepipe(not powerwash... just a hosepipe on the "shower" setting) I can GUARANTEE it will fail a minimm of 7 out of 10 times.

 

[Mikerb]

Good job!! I am not a Giant owner but always interested in what I consider to be the main weakness of most Emtbs....pathetic management of electrical equipment!
There is one other aspect of poor design that is by no means restricted to Giant and that is the idea that the male/ female pin connection used to connect and disconnect the battery can be reliable overtime when the battery is regularly taken out and replaced for charging. That connection will wear and it is supporting a significant weight ( the battery) such that any movement will widen the female part of the connection. Every removeable connector has a specified life in terms of connects/disconnects. I remember the (now old) RS232 connector ( typically used for printer connection to a PC back then) was rated at 100 disconnects.
I have a Levo and Whyte E180RS. The battery is removeable on the Levo, although not as easily as on the Giant. I only remove it 2 or 3 times a year when I am doing a larger service. The Whyte battery is even more of a faff to remove, but wisely, instead of just sitting on pinned connections the wiring loom is plugged into the base of the battery so is not subject to any forces exerted by the weight/movement of the battery. Again, I rarely remove the battery.

 

[Evolution Stu]

One thing that I didn't seal is the actual moulding of the battery connector. I thought that it was moulded around the contacts and wires and thus was homogeneous, but from seeing other people's disaster stories I now see that it's a split component.
I'll wait until it goes bad and then modify and seal its replacement.

I go to Gisburn sometimes, I might even go today if I have time. It's not too far for me, we live near Rawtenstall in Lancashire.

Indeed. I thought it was sealed at first glance too, then saw a pic of corrosion on some other poor beta testers, sorry, owners bike... and examined mine further. It’s actually like this....

So I went with liquid tape for that one as it’s easy to get into the wiring gaps.

For peoples reference, it’s this stuff... we use it on rally car wiring connectors from time to time in an emergency and to be fair, it’s exceptional stuff.

Liquid Electrical Tape

Portable Antennas, Accessories and more. All for Amateur Radio operating.

www.sotabeams.co.uk

It brushes on and dries flexible.

I’ve done the RCOne wiring outputs and the cable relief points on the RC one connector in the frame. I might do the bloody joint next time I reassemble it too.

 

[Evolution Stu]

There is one other aspect of poor design that is by no means restricted to Giant and that is the idea that the male/ female pin connection used to connect and disconnect the battery can be reliable overtime when the battery is regularly taken out and replaced for charging. That connection will wear and it is supporting a significant weight ( the battery) such that any movement will widen the female part of the connection.

Your not wrong. This bike was brand new in February this year, has covered just under 1900 miles, and look at this wear already.

 

[Dgedge]

Hi cappuccino34,

Very good job you made on your bike !
I was thinking about doing something like that when I opened the motor and saw all those connectors in a so small place. When I got the bike all connectors and cables were messed off, the motor side cover was bent and I had to struggle to find a descent place for them. For the moment I cross my fingers as I don't have issues with water and everything fits properly.
I still keep in mind removing some useless connectors and solder directly the wire inside sealed heatshrink tubes.

Regarding the CAN bus, did you manage to decode the frames ? I used a logic analyzer to record them at different moment just to recognized the protocol and identify datas on my previous Full-E but I wasn't able to go too far...

 

[DrStupid]

Your not wrong. This bike was brand new in February this year, has covered just under 1900 miles, and look at this wear already.

View attachment 47260

Do you think the wear on the pins, is from the battery moving around when riding, or when being removed/installed?


My intuition leads me to believe the battery is jiggling around when riding.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Do you think the wear on the pins, is from the battery moving around when riding, or when being removed/installed?

My initial feeling was current scoring, but given the low voltage pins have pretty much the same degree of wear I am going to have to go with movement. I have just priced up a new block actually as I am amassing part numbers for future drama rectification...

Giant E Bike Battery Connector Discharge Cable

activesport.co

 

[cappuccino34]

Thanks for taking the time to illustrate all this mate, I for one certainly appreciate it and will be making damn good use of the info.
Love your MIL spec connector down there! You have gone to some bloody effort here (That GIANT should ahve done for you)

Dare I ask...
Is your bike working fine when its wet now then? No more issues? Can even wash it?

I still cant always get away with washing mine.
If i use a hosepipe(not powerwash... just a hosepipe on the "shower" setting) I can GUARANTEE it will fail a minimm of 7 out of 10 times.

I can actually ride with it submerged now.
I also forgot to mention that I saw that water and dirt was entering the frame though the lock mechanism, and there's a handy channel down the back of the battery to make sure that the water and diets gets to the contacts at the bottom. ?

Being borderline pikey, I got some blutak and mushed it around the cables in the frame but left the wax paper film on the face that the battery closes against, so that the battery wasn't stuck in place by the tackyness. It took quite a bit of time and effort to squash it into shape but it works a treat.

There's a recent 'update' from giant that consists of a rubber 'comb' type of thing that pushes into the bottom of the battery to hopefully prevent water getting up into it. The wife's new battery has it fitted. I didn't bother on mine because it looks to me like, whilst it might stop some water getting in, for sure it will stop what's got in from getting out.

I noticed that there's a top/bottom split to the battery connector. When I do get around to sealing mine up, I think I'll cover the contacts, submerge it in resin and vacuum it to make sure that all gaps and voids are sealed.

 

[cappuccino34]

Your not wrong. This bike was brand new in February this year, has covered just under 1900 miles, and look at this wear already.

View attachment 47260

I suspect that a lot of that contact wear is from dirt being abrasive and battery movement. I've adjusted my catch so the battery really very tight fitting and doesn't move. Obviously there's still going to be some frame flex but I can't do owt about that.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Thanks, I have also dealt with that poxy big gap at the top using some self adhesive door seal strips on the battery.
Hard to explain how but you can picture it I’m sure.

Dried my loom on the radiator overnight and now into work and made a start on it.

It is now cut down to this.

Plus: I noticed upon closer inspection... this damn RC1 connector is also unsealed!

Comedy looming... ?

Just awaiting delivery of some adhesive 3:1 shrink wrap which I will double seal with my liquid tape on the ends.

 

[cappuccino34]

Hi cappuccino34,

Very good job you made on your bike !
I was thinking about doing something like that when I opened the motor and saw all those connectors in a so small place. When I got the bike all connectors and cables were messed off, the motor side cover was bent and I had to struggle to find a descent place for them. For the moment I cross my fingers as I don't have issues with water and everything fits properly.
I still keep in mind removing some useless connectors and solder directly the wire inside sealed heatshrink tubes.

Regarding the CAN bus, did you manage to decode the frames ? I used a logic analyzer to record them at different moment just to recognized the protocol and identify datas on my previous Full-E but I wasn't able to go too far...

I didn't identify anything, no, I only got as far as verifying that that was what was on those terminals (and thus wouldn't likely be happy when wet) I did it because of the battery problems we were having with the wife's bike; it seemed to be getting stuck in 'charging mode', and thus wouldn't turn on. I thought that if I could identify the instruction from the charger to go into 'operating mode' I could maybe replicate it or something. In the end they gave us a replacement battery, so I didn't need to.
I've chopped the charging port off mine now so I'd have to use the wife's bike and run it on the dyno to identify the various channels properly if we wanted to see speed and cadence.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Great to hear you can ride it properly now mate.
I am hoping to be able to do this same as of tomorrow evening! Hope so, I have big plans for some Xmas break riding!

 

[cappuccino34]

Thanks, I have also dealt with that poxy big gap at the top using some self adhesive door seal strips on the battery.
Hard to explain how but you can picture it I’m sure.

Dried my loom on the radiator overnight and now into work and made a start on it.

View attachment 47313

It is now cut down to this.

View attachment 47310

Plus: I noticed upon closer inspection... this damn RC1 connector is also unsealed!

View attachment 47311

Comedy looming... ?

Just awaiting delivery of some adhesive 3:1 shrink wrap which I will double seal with my liquid tape on the ends.

View attachment 47309

View attachment 47312

My RC1 was exactly the same, loom side anyway, the controller was ok. I've just self amalgammed that because it's got to come off again soon due to broken mount (another stupid design).

You want to slice the shrink wrap off those splices and seal them up properly.

Also, I assume that you're going to cap the purple wire otherwise water will get in?
( That's why I swapped the 4-way pair for the 3-way connector that used to go to the port)

 

[cappuccino34]

My RC1 was exactly the same, loom side anyway, the controller was ok. I've just self amalgammed that because it's got to come off again soon due to broken mount (another stupid design).

You want to slice the shrink wrap off those splices and seal them up properly.

Also, I assume that you're going to cap the purple wire otherwise water will get in?
( That's why I swapped the 4-way pair for the 3-way connector that used to go to the port)

Sorry, I didn't notice at first, the grey and white as well as the purple....

 

[cappuccino34]

Great to hear you can ride it properly now mate.
I am hoping to be able to do this same as of tomorrow evening! Hope so, I have big plans for some Xmas break riding!

It's just the battery misbehaviour and the crApp that doesn't work properly now.

I am looking forward to some Christmas break riding but I put my back out yesterday pulling a bloody sock on! ?

 

[cappuccino34]

New light arrived today. ?

 

[cappuccino34]

New light arrived today. ?

View attachment 47317

I might not get lost on the Moors now. ?

 

[paul-g]

Giant direct are who I started with when issues came and they just said let retailer sort it, honestly I've had many emails and calls with giant and they have been useless.

if you didn`t purchase your bike from Giant you and Giant have no contractual obligations.
your contract is with the retailer you purchased it from

 

[cappuccino34]

Good job!! I am not a Giant owner but always interested in what I consider to be the main weakness of most Emtbs....pathetic management of electrical equipment!
There is one other aspect of poor design that is by no means restricted to Giant and that is the idea that the male/ female pin connection used to connect and disconnect the battery can be reliable overtime when the battery is regularly taken out and replaced for charging. That connection will wear and it is supporting a significant weight ( the battery) such that any movement will widen the female part of the connection. Every removeable connector has a specified life in terms of connects/disconnects. I remember the (now old) RS232 connector ( typically used for printer connection to a PC back then) was rated at 100 disconnects.
I have a Levo and Whyte E180RS. The battery is removeable on the Levo, although not as easily as on the Giant. I only remove it 2 or 3 times a year when I am doing a larger service. The Whyte battery is even more of a faff to remove, but wisely, instead of just sitting on pinned connections the wiring loom is plugged into the base of the battery so is not subject to any forces exerted by the weight/movement of the battery. Again, I rarely remove the battery.

Circular contacts would help, as long as the male was a solid pin and the female isn't a split tube. It would also help if the contact projected from a circular housing which could carry an O-ring to properly keep the crap out.
Like most things though, they would be better designed by engineers than accountants.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Also, I assume that you're going to cap the purple wire otherwise water will get in?
( That's why I swapped the 4-way pair for the 3-way connector that used to go to the port)

Yes indeed, but my stuff doesnt arrive until tomorrow. I only have non adhesive stuff here so it can spend another night on the radiator to dry out all the cores as best I can before I seal it all up tomorrow and leave just the connectors out in the air.

Going to seal the cable entry points in teh back of those plugs too. With tension on the wires they are about as waterproof as toilet roll. Absolute junk setup.

Debating on also deleting the charging port as you have done. That presents a warrant issue though so will give that further thought as thus far these mods are all warranty friendly (Can buy a new loom for £19.99 if I was forced to)

 

[Evolution Stu]

It's just the battery misbehaviour and the crApp that doesn't work properly now.

I am looking forward to some Christmas break riding but I put my back out yesterday pulling a bloody sock on! ?

I wonder if you are my brother from another mother...

We share Bike issues... Back issues... (L3,4 and 5 for me) and I saw mention of a dyno... Not many of us operate those either!

 

[Evolution Stu]

Like most things though, they would be better designed by engineers than accountants.

Agreed.
The bike to me looks like the frame designers designed the frame and then mounted the Yamaham motor and did a pretty decent job of it all. Only when that design job was finished did anyone say "Erm, guys... we need to fit this wiring harness too... "

Because that part looks like it wasnt "designed" in any way, shape or form. It is literally stuffed in!

 

[Mikerb]

Circular contacts would help, as long as the male was a solid pin and the female isn't a split tube. It would also help if the contact projected from a circular housing which could carry an O-ring to properly keep the crap out.
Like most things though, they would be better designed by engineers than accountants.

A better solution would be for the wiring loom to plug into the base of the battery using a waterproof connector, and then for the battery to sit on a platform with the wiring loom plug in a recess. In that way the connector and battery are a single connected unit. How the base of the battery is secured would be by a simple rubber coated platform. It would still be better in my mind not to constantly disturb that connection but rather to use a separate charger port..............I do recognise that would provide problems for those that need to bring the battery indoors for charging though
ps cant think of any electric cars with removeable batteries!!

 

[Mikerb]

Do you think the wear on the pins, is from the battery moving around when riding, or when being removed/installed?


My intuition leads me to believe the battery is jiggling around when riding.

As per a lot of connectors it looks like these pins consist a base metal ( bronze in this case??) with a highly conductive surface metal layer ( often gold or other precious metal). Either constant install/remove or battery movement...in fact probably a combination of both has worn away the high conductive layer. That could lead to sparking, higher resistance and also liable to corrosion.
This site could be useful for you DIY ebike electrical wiring gurus. Note, they classify the Rosenburger magnetic connector ( charging point) as used by Specialized on the Levo for example, as the best connector.
Luna Cycle Fast Ebikes and Electric Bike Kits