Uplift Vs E-Bike

[Gary]

EMBN click bait at it's finest. So as with all the versus/tests the Bike Network guys do you have to take any findings with a family sized portion of table salt.

.

Entertaining, but really not informative. The whole thing is clearly staged to make for better viewing.(and let's face it to sell E-bikes) Much like a TopGear versus feature it is story scripted.
for example. Neil finishes a DH run and the van he supposedly got a lift in was waiting for him each (different) run? Erm... Unless the driver is the spirit of Colin McCRae there's very few DH tracks with an uplift road where your driver'd be at the bottom before you (even for an old boy like me with a decent sized crash thrown in for good measure). Also over the years I've shared uplifts with both Steve and Neil. So know for a fact Steve is talking out his arse saying things like "I wouldn't want to sit in a van for that long". But ignoring the BS for a minute it does bring up some interesting discussion.

Last weekend I rode a full days DH for the first time in a while. Pure uplifted DH. ie. Zero pushing. pick up in the car park/drop off at the top on a dedicated DH bike. No matter what the media will have you believe. There is no substitute for having the right tool for the job. And a DH bike was that tool.
Now. here are some stats from the day:
Total time: 6 hours (9am-3pm) - this included down time for drinks/lunch/blethering with mates
Runs: 12
Riding time: 40mins
Time sat in uplift bus: 2hrs30
Distance driven: 55miles
Distance ridden 14miles
total Elevation 13000ft+

As you can see the vehicle drove almost 4 times the distance the bike was ridden. Both descended at similar speeds.
Now what Steve and Neil also failed to tell you was that 40minutes and 13000ft of descending at race speed is high intensity excercise (My Max HR on my Enduro bike every ride is recorded while decending NOT climbing). Plus after 12 DH runs your entire body has taken a quite beating. Not too many non DHers actually manage double figures before fatigue begins to limit their ability to ride safely. At Ft William (one of the roughest DH race tracks in the world) for example I have seen many only manage ONE run and be too beaten up/tired to contemplate another. It's very different from normal mtb riding.

Looking at the bikes. An E-bike on Turbo could nowhere near match the uplift vehicles speed to the top but if de-restricted to get close at a guestimate would require a new battery every what? 2 runs? On Eco you *might* manage to complete the 12 runs on 2 batteries but it would take you twice the time and that's a hell of a lot of uphill to pedal. Something else that keeps being touted is that E-bikes are as fast as DH bikes. They're really not. Not on proper DH tracks anyway. If an E-bike were spec'd to be ridden purely on DH tracks at DH race speed it would need to weigh closer to 60lb than the current benchmark 48/50lb bikes we're seeing today just to last a season and as such would handle like a pig. (just for comparisson my DH bikes weigh 35 and 36lb with full DH componentry and tyres)

Anyway. My point here is that an E-bike is no replacement for a DH bike and an uplift day but it can definitely be a damn good addition and also one of the reasons I've finally taken the plunge myself.

 

[Tori]

EMBN click bait at it's finest. So as with all the versus/tests the Bike Network guys do you have to take any findings with a family sized portion of table salt.

.

Entertaining, but really not informative. The whole thing is clearly staged to make for better viewing.(and let's face it to sell E-bikes) Much like a TopGear versus feature it is story scripted.
for example. Neil finishes a DH run and the van he supposedly got a lift in was waiting for him each (different) run? Erm... Unless the driver is the spirit of Colin McCRae there's very few DH tracks with an uplift road where your driver'd be at the bottom before you (even for an old boy like me with a decent sized crash thrown in for good measure). Also over the years I've shared uplifts with both Steve and Neil. So know for a fact Steve is talking out his arse saying things like "I wouldn't want to sit in a van for that long". But ignoring the BS for a minute it does bring up some interesting discussion.

Last weekend I rode a full days DH for the first time in a while. Pure uplifted DH. ie. Zero pushing. pick up in the car park/drop off at the top on a dedicated DH bike. No matter what the media will have you believe. There is no substitute for having the right tool for the job. And a DH bike was that tool.
Now. here are some stats from the day:
Total time: 6 hours (9am-3pm) - this included down time for drinks/lunch/blethering with mates
Runs: 12
Riding time: 40mins
Time sat in uplift bus: 2hrs30
Distance driven: 55miles
Distance ridden 14miles
total Elevation 13000ft+

As you can see the vehicle drove almost 4 times the distance the bike was ridden. Both descended at similar speeds.
Now what Steve and Neil also failed to tell you was that 40minutes and 13000ft of descending at race speed is high intensity excercise (My Max HR on my Enduro bike every ride is recorded while decending NOT climbing). Plus after 12 DH runs your entire body has taken a quite beating. Not too many non DHers actually manage double figures before fatigue begins to limit their ability to ride safely. At Ft William (one of the roughest DH race tracks in the world) for example I have seen many only manage ONE run and be too beaten up/tired to contemplate another. It's very different from normal mtb riding.

Looking at the bikes. An E-bike on Turbo could nowhere near match the uplift vehicles speed to the top but if de-restricted to get close at a guestimate would require a new battery every what? 2 runs? On Eco you *might* manage to complete the 12 runs on 2 batteries but it would take you twice the time and that's a hell of a lot of uphill to pedal. Something else that keeps being touted is that E-bikes are as fast as DH bikes. They're really not. Not on proper DH tracks anyway. If an E-bike were spec'd to be ridden purely on DH tracks at DH race speed it would need to weigh closer to 60lb than the current benchmark 48/50lb bikes we're seeing today just to last a season and as such would handle like a pig. (just for comparisson my DH bikes weigh 35 and 36lb with full DH componentry and tyres)

Anyway. My point here is that an E-bike is no replacement for a DH bike and an uplift day but it can definitely be a damn good addition and also one of the reasons I've finally taken the plunge myself.

Well stated argument. I watched the EMBN video this morning with a cuppa. It was clearly staged but it was nonetheless entertaining. Uplift vans will still be used for sure, as will chairlifts etc.

The strength of the eMTB is riding in areas where uplift isn't possible or as accessible. Yesterday I rode a bloody lovely bike park, but no vehicle access was allowed once you parked up and unloaded your bikes. We did a fuck load of climbing - over 1500m and a fair bit of it was grade 4 climbing which I could ride up rather than walk. Two of our party caved in from the climbing; and there was no option of uplift. You had to ride up to ride down, and the eMTB took the edge off this, but I was still getting a great workout.

 

[Gary]

There's not a whole load of Uplifted DH here in Scotland but it's getting better.
locally (40 mins drive from me) uplifts are run using 4x 14 seater minibuses with trailers. that access multiple tracks. The service is great and the same company also runs a service on another hill 90mins drive away.
There's another service about the same distance away (another direction) with just one minibus n trailer.
Then there's fort william and Glencoe Chairlifts (open in the summer April - September) 3hrs (or 2.5) away.
And I believe there's one other one way up north (4hrs drive)
most of these are long established Scottish DH race venues
There's Danny Harts place at Hamsterley in the North East of England (2hrs away)
Wales has around the same number as Scotland but the closest is probably 5+ hours drive.
The area I mentioned first is my local (proper) mtb riding area. and there are litterally hundreds of great DH/Enduro trails, loads of natural riding and a few trail centres so the E-bike will be great for 2hr ish blasts there (the climbing is huge and i'm under no illusion about battery life) taking in as many descents as I can with the aid of the motor.
just under 10miles from my house there's a mellow little DH spot we build and ride at with lots of nice short tracks, jumps etc. I usually ride there, do a few runs and ride back. I can see me using the E-bike ther quite a bit. it's a short woodland XC descent from mine then a flat cycle on an old disused railway path most of the way and I can do it in around 30-40mins on my hardtail/Enduro bikes there so I'd imagine Eco to get there and trail to climb between runs should last for a few hours riding time. If it runs out it's not the end of the world. I've ridden a DH bike with supertacky tyres there and back before. first couple of outings on the bike will probably only be local XC because of time constraints. I got really tired of riding my local trails this winter. Due to logging and a really wet winter it became a bit of a slog/bog and just not fun in places. I reckon the E-bike (although a 170mm Enduro bike like the Sommet is complete overkill for XC) should spark a bit more enjoyment/novelty into it though.
bike should arrive tomorrow or Tuesday.
I'll definitely post my thoughts here (well... in the relevant section) once built/ridden

 

[Slowroller]

It's interesting for sure. I think that having normally shuttled, and especially commercially shuttled trails like that are a unique situation. In the mountain west of the US, your choices for DH tracks are really only at ski areas, which are lift served. There are always a few trails that you can shuttle with your buddies that are trail bike suitable, and a few that are served by commercial shuttles like Porcupine Rim, but those are long, point to point trails where you ride it once, you're not riding laps. Ebikes for sure allow me to ride more laps of my usual trails though, so it feels more like shuttling than riding a mtb.

 

[Gary]

Sessioning (pushing or riding up) and shuttling trails repeatedly, learning lines until you are hitting them faster and faster is definitely quite a british thing. It first became properly popular here with the advent of DH racing in the early to mid 90s and in recent years the popularity of Enduro and the advances in bike technology has seen quite a bit of growth. It's also why IMO the UK is such a strong nation in gravity mountainbike racing.
That and the amount of digging that goes on here along with our poor climate/conditions.

 

[Alan wolfe]

Well stated argument. I watched the EMBN video this morning with a cuppa. It was clearly staged but it was nonetheless entertaining. Uplift vans will still be used for sure, as will chairlifts etc.

The strength of the eMTB is riding in areas where uplift isn't possible or as accessible. Yesterday I rode a bloody lovely bike park, but no vehicle access was allowed once you parked up and unloaded your bikes. We did a fuck load of climbing - over 1500m and a fair bit of it was grade 4 climbing which I could ride up rather than walk. Two of our party caved in from the climbing; and there was no option of uplift. You had to ride up to ride down, and the eMTB took the edge off this, but I was still getting a great workout.

Anyway u get up hill is good my nephew told me am missing point of mountain bike when I use sport to go up hill.said it's all part of experience yep he's right.but I am now in my 50s so stuff experience I just want get to top easy way and fastest lol

 

[Al Boneta]

@Alan wolfe bringing back a an older thread
Here is the latest on uplift vs Ebike

 

[Gary]

Cool Vid Al. even if it has very little to do with the discussion

Spesh are great at marketing, eh?

"turbo".
"It's you. Only faster"

made me laugh

 

[Dax]

Ive been thinking that we should film our own uplift vs ebike video, actually put it to the test because the EMBN video is meaningless. Get a group of riders on ebikes, a group of riders on regular bikes, hit BPW and Staunton for a weekend and see if the uplift or ebikes get the most laps in. @Rob Hancill get your camera out!

 

[Gary]

Go ferrit Dax. But bear in mind it's going to be utterly pointless apart from being purely for entertainment. (as EMBN)
If an Ebike can outdo an uplift service either the uplift or the uplifted hill isn't great.

Basically. Good luck getting 69miless and 13000ft of climbing/descending in 6hrs on your Ebike.
I'm not saying it's not possible BTW. What I am saying is you'd need to use boost/trail all day and it would probably need 4 batteries to complete.

 

[Dax]

I recognise that anywhere with lifts is a no go (13000ft in a day, lol), but for most of the uplift places that use minibuses or vans I think there's a chance.

Obviously van beats ebike, distance for distance on fire road or tarmac. However at BPW, FoD, 417 etc, there is lots of queuing, faffing around loading & unloading etc, so I think that when you apply reality, it might be closer than you would expect, or maybe not.

 

[Gofurtherfaster]

I'm throwing a house party on the weekend Gary so if you fancy being the resident buzzkill please let me know.

 

[Gary]

I recognise that anywhere with lifts is a no go (13000ft in a day, lol), but for most of the uplift places that use minibuses or vans I think there's a chance.

Dude. Read the OP. That is using vans and trailers. and it's not even making use of every available uplift.
Even if you're an uplift day car park faffer or quite a slow descender so long as you're not too weak you can get 12 runs in easily enough. it's 900ft elev from the car park to the drop off point, the start of the tracks is 170ft or so higher up the hill but you'll need to push/ride up that and you'll waste valuable uplift time in doing so

I'm throwing a house party on the weekend Gary so if you fancy being the resident buzzkill please let me know.

You sort the girls, weed, coke, pills and sounds and I'll happily buzz/kill the lot for ya.

 

[Gofurtherfaster]

Jurassic Park could happen.

 

[mymodel6]

Ive been thinking that we should film our own uplift vs ebike video, actually put it to the test because the EMBN video is meaningless. Get a group of riders on ebikes, a group of riders on regular bikes, hit BPW and Staunton for a weekend and see if the uplift or ebikes get the most laps in. @Rob Hancill get your camera out!

You might be missing the point a bit, along with EMBN and anyone else trying to compare shuttling with riding up on an e-bike.

I don't think BPW is a good example for this, or anywhere else with a shuttle service for that matter. If there is an uplift, use the uplift, take your normal bike and shuttle it. Obviously you can ride up and that's your choice and totally cool, but there's no way you'll get as much actual DOWNHILL riding in, which is why most people go to these places specifically.

However, if you're going to Aston Hill, Windhill, or any of the many other awesome parks without an uplift, you'd be stupid not to take your EMTB if you have one.
That's precisely why i got one, because there are zero uplift serviced tracks within a 3 hour radius of where i live and i'm sick to death of walking up, especially at Aston Hill!!! Anyone here that's done that walk up will know what i mean, It's more tiring than any amount of riding and is super boring, on the Kenevo, going back up is so easy it's actually fun and my battery lasts way longer than i do...

 

[highpeakrider]

There's not a whole load of Uplifted DH here in Scotland but it's getting better.
locally (40 mins drive from me) uplifts are run using 4x 14 seater minibuses with trailers. that access multiple tracks. The service is great and the same company also runs a service on another hill 90mins drive away.

@Gary I’m far to old for this, but how much do you pay for a days riding using an uplift?

 

[Gary]

I have a season pass so for me it works out at £25 for the day.
It's £32 for a day pass for non seasonpass holders. so less than £3 per run
how old are you @highpeakrider ?

 

[knut7]

I get so much more runs done in my local BP with the eb compared to using the shuttle!!

That could be because the shuttle only runs 2 hrs every wednesday... Next season uplift will be running though. Still, I appreciate being able to ride regardless of the opening hours of the shuttle/uplift.

 

[mymodel6]

I get so much more runs done in my local BP with the eb compared to using the shuttle!!

That could be because the shuttle only runs 2 hrs every wednesday...

Ya reckon?..... (sarcasm emoji)

 

[Gary]

Yeah, think I covered that..

If an Ebike can outdo an uplift service either the uplift or the uplifted hill isn't great

 

[knut7]

Ya reckon?..... (sarcasm emoji)

Prematurely posted, I was hoping to get away with it by editing.

 

[mymodel6]

Yeah, think I covered that..

Handbags!!!

Hmm, maybe in your head you covered that really well, but what you actually wrote, not so much

 

[mymodel6]

Prematurely posted, I was hoping to get away with it by editing.

Fastest quoter in the west.. Peeoow! Peeoow!

 

[Gary]

Again @mymodel6 I'm replying to someone else.
"you're so posessive" [/Camp as christmas emoji]

 

[highpeakrider]

I have a season pass so for me it works out at £25 for the day.
It's £32 for a day pass for non seasonpass holders. so less than £3 per run
how old are you @highpeakrider ?

@Gary I’m coming up to 59.
I’ve had one discectomy and I’ve now been off work for 5 weeks waiting for another MRI due to pain down my right leg which went into spasm.

So no I’m not driving to Scotland to give it ago. ?

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Here is some info for you ?
I have been to Bike Park Wales 3 times in the last few weeks. The first time was to work out how many climbs I could do using 2 batteries. I was mostly on Eco and Trail and a bit of Turbo on the climbs.
I did 7 climbs and descents in 3 hours 33 minutes and still had 26% left in the ‘tank’. I had the capacity in the battery to complete another climb but I did not have the capacity in the body to do so as I was too knackered ?
This was due to climbing over 7,150 feet and the heavy workout of descending and as Gary says, ‘not using the best tool for the job’ the tool I used was pretty good, 170mm Lyrik up front, 160mm Cane Creek coil rear, DH tyres front and rear but still not up to proper DH standards. However, I had a bloody good time and it was still a great day out and if you have 2 batteries I would highly recommend it. By the way, I did session a few of the runs as that is what an ebike is made for ?
I think if I had spent a few weeks before the trip to BPW preparing my body for climbing and descending basically more than double what I normally do on a typical ride out in Brechfa I think I would have easily completed 8 climbs and descents and possibly even 9 to 10. Please note, I did had a third battery in the car. Bike and battery said yes, body and mind said no way Jose ?
So 7 climbs and descents in under 4 hours...... A fitter and more prepared person would more than likely have been able to do a lot more climbs and descents as long as they had enough batteries to feed their hunger.

 

[Gary]

Ooft... Heal fast... Uplifts will still be there when you're healthy again

You're not too old at all, but if you're new to DH the learning curve of pure DH riding will be high for you.

 

[mymodel6]

Again @mymodel6 I'm replying to someone else.
"you're so posessive" [/Camp as christmas emoji]

There are other people in here?...

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

My second trip, last Friday was with JetSetDemo and a couple of my other friends all on ebikes. We all had 2 batteries.

Similar height climbed but only 6 full climbs completed as we were sessioning some of the runs this time having fun and exploring some of the random steep fire roads off the main fire roads because you ‘can’ on an ebike. We found a quicker more direct route up using the trail called ‘DH push up route’ which knocked about 5 minutes of the full climb time ?
Using Eco, Trail but a bit more Turbo as the day progressed.
Again, another great day out

 

[Gary]

@Kiwi in Wales Interesting.
I'm now kinda of the opinion I wouldn't really ever want to carry a spare battery. I like to ride light with minimal kit and spares etc. I know at a place like BPW I could just leave one in the car. But even thar still just doesn't really appeal to me just now. If I could hire one I would. simply to see what I think about this for real. The main reason I don't want a spare is just that I don't think I'd ever use it. Probably because i don't actually mind climbing/riding my Ebike with it switched off.(I did 8000ft elev a couple of weekends ago in the hills or Glentress and innerleithen and only used 2 bars (out of 5) of battery on my one and only E8000 battery. I rode with 3 separate groups of riders one after another over a whole day with a break for lunch. all were slower than myself so it wasn't really taxing. On other reason is the cost of a spare battery is the same as 2 uplift season passes.
I've ever ridden BPW. Well.. I have but it wasn't called BPW.. I helped dig two of the original DH tracks at Gethin back around 2001 and rode DH there a lot.
Kinda wonder which if any of the old tracks still exist. No doubt I'll get back there again one day.
God how I wish Ebikes as capable as mine had been available back then... My DH bikes back then were more expensive and nowhere near as capable, other than strength.