Upgrade wheels, what would I notice?

[RebornRider]

I've always been a DIY'er, so I have a lot of experience with wanting to do some upgrade only because it would be a fun project. I recently bought a truing stand and spoke tension meter to tend to the Roval wheels that came with my Turbo Levo. Spoke tension is now well within recommendations (it wasn't) , the rims are centered and round (they weren't), and not wobbling side to side (the rear was). However, my regular 21 mile ride with 2000 feet of up and down as well as a few rocks, small drops, and washboard did not feel any different.

That brings me to my question:

I want to build a set of wheels with well-respected hubs, spokes, and rims. I'll not name names to limit distracting "mine's better!" tangents. Assume I will select your favorite components. These wheels should be stronger and have quicker freehub engagement than what I'm riding today. What differences should I look for when I ride them? What does a stronger wheel feel like? Maybe a better question is if one has to ride at an enduro competitive level (I'm barely into "intermediate" trail riding) to notice things such as stronger wheels or quicker freehub engagement.

 

[R120]

Well I would kinda of throw the question back at you and say what are you looking for? How you build up a wheel set and what components you use will have different results.

Lighter wheels will accelerate better, and have a lower unsprung mass which should improve suspension performance, but may not be as tough as a heavier wheel set - a stiffer wheel set may make he bike handle better and be more direct with less deflection, but go to stiff and you might not like the ride quality and end up getting more punctures, loosing some trail compliance - then again you could go for a super burly wheel set that places strength over weight. Of course rim width and tyre combo plays a big part in handling.

So long and short is building up your own set allows you to make a wheel set that optimises what you are looking for, and if you specify the right bits with a specific aim you should notice a benefit, but if you build up a wheel set that isn't driven by a specific purpose you may end up with a fancy set of wheels that do you no favours.

You will definitely notice the hub engagement, this can make a pretty big difference on an ebike, especially in technical climbing IMO.

 

[lumpy]

I think the biggest thing you'll notice is the hit to your wallet

 

[Gary]

What differences should I look for when I ride them?

Other than the faster engagement and resulting shorter crank rotation when ratcheting the main difference you should hopefully notice is reliability.
If you choose the individual component parts sensibly and you build them well you can't really go wrong.

Do yourself a favour and stick with 32 J bend SS spokes, Brass nipples and 3X lacing... you'll thank me when it comes to any trueing in years to come

[edit] Oh... and R120s reply pretty much covered everything else

 

[JetSedgwick]

I've always been a DIY'er, so I have a lot of experience with wanting to do some upgrade only because it would be a fun project. I recently bought a truing stand and spoke tension meter to tend to the Roval wheels that came with my Turbo Levo. Spoke tension is now well within recommendations (it wasn't) , the rims are centered and round (they weren't), and not wobbling side to side (the rear was). However, my regular 21 mile ride with 2000 feet of up and down as well as a few rocks, small drops, and washboard did not feel any different.

That brings me to my question:

I want to build a set of wheels with well-respected hubs, spokes, and rims. I'll not name names to limit distracting "mine's better!" tangents. Assume I will select your favorite components. These wheels should be stronger and have quicker freehub engagement than what I'm riding today. What differences should I look for when I ride them? What does a stronger wheel feel like? Maybe a better question is if one has to ride at an enduro competitive level (I'm barely into "intermediate" trail riding) to notice things such as stronger wheels or quicker freehub engagement.

I bought carbon rims and i9 hubs. I did not notice a difference.

 

[RebornRider]

Lighter wheels will accelerate better, and have a lower unsprung mass which should improve suspension performance, but may not be as tough as a heavier wheel set - a stiffer wheel set may make he bike handle better and be more direct with less deflection, but go to stiff and you might not like the ride quality and end up getting more punctures, loosing some trail compliance - then again you could go for a super burly wheel set that places strength over weight. Of course rim width and tyre combo plays a big part in handling.

You will definitely notice the hub engagement, this can make a pretty big difference on an ebike, especially in technical climbing IMO.

Thanks for the feedback, but it doesn't address my question. I have an ebike with 90 nm of torque - what would better acceleration feel like? A stiffer wheel leads to better handling, but what does better handling feel like? What should I pay attention to? What does quicker engagement feel like? I don't notice my pedals having a dead zone with the current DT 3-pawl freehub. I've seen the demos online of Hydra hubs, but watching a bike on a stand is not the same as feeling the pedals through your feet. What should I pay attention to while I'm riding to notice hub engagement?

All these questions suggest that a rider must both have a lot of skill and be pushing really hard to notice what may be subtle differences. Or maybe I'm especially numb!

 

[Superkoochy]

I love DT Swiss hubs as the ratchet system is reliable and can easily be upgraded for faster engagement which is something you will immediately notice on technical climbs. I have over 3000 miles on my last while with one set of them and no rebuilds, their rims are pretty strong as well, I’m 120kg in gear and I’ve never managed to dent a set (and that includes the time I drove over one of my wheels in my car). I think that a stronger rim can cause more vibration feedback but is less likely to be damaged so that is the trade off (alloy wheels in particular, carbon not so much). I’m an average rider at best but I can tell the difference between a good wheel and a bad one whilst riding.

 

[Gary]

Thanks for the feedback, but it doesn't address my question.

C'mon, eh? R120 typed 4 paragraphs in reply to your questions but you can't be bothered to even address his first point. ie.
"say what are you looking for?"

I have an ebike with 90 nm of torque - what would better acceleration feel like?

Are you for real?
it's pretty obvious what better acceleration is going to feel like whether the bike has a motor or not.
Faster acceleration is precicely that. quicker increases in speed. or to put it another way. less effort for the same acceleration.
The same is true of deceleration when braking with a lighter wheel. But TBH lighter tyres will make more difference than a few grams on a rim or spokes or hub.

A stiffer wheel leads to better handling, but what does better handling feel like?

A stiffer wheel doesn't lead to "Better" handling. It will simply perform differently than a wheel that's less stiff. With the stiffer rim being more precise but at the cost of less deflection at the rim so a less comfortable ride. this will be far more noticable for a heavy agressive rider than a lightweight plodder.

What does quicker engagement feel like?

This I already explained in my last post.

Surely from the explanations you've been given you can use common sense to understand what these differences are likely to feel like? How (or whether) YOU personally will feel the difference is anyone's guess.

All these questions suggest that a rider must both have a lot of skill and be pushing really hard to notice what may be subtle differences. Or maybe I'm especially numb!

Definitely the latter.
Basically you're wasting your money unless your current wheels are done.
But we're talking minimal gains anyway so don't even worry about it.

 

[RebornRider]

C'mon, eh? R120 typed 4 paragraphs in reply to your questions but you can't be bothered to even address his first point. ie.
"say what are you looking for?"

Tell ya what, princess, how 'bout you reread the first sentence of the first post in this thread then report back here for further discussion. I can do attitude, too.

I'm looking for guidance on what sorts of things I should look for or pay attention to while riding if I replace existing wheels with a pair that is some combination of stronger, stiffer, quicker hub.

The four paragraphs you refer to contain the phrase "... a stiffer wheel set may make he bike handle better ...", but thanks for expanding on what I might feel on the trail. That's what I'm looking for - what to pay attention to.

Thought experiment: Accelerate from a standing start and ride as hard as you can for 20 meters. Time it. Now swap on a pair of wheels that are a total of 1 kg lighter and repeat the 20 meters. The stopwatch may report a quicker time (or not), but would the bike feel any different? I'm doubtful, but willing to learn.

Rhetorical question: On a 2 hour weekend ride, what percentage of the time do you come out of a corner at 100% acceleration, meaning that you are putting as much power through the pedals as you can. And if you aren't at 100% effort, would you notice a wheel set that is 1 kg lighter? That is what I'm trying to get at. Would one really notice?

 

[Gary]

Tell ya what, princess, how 'bout you reread the first sentence of the first post in this thread then report back here for further discussion.

Your first sentence was telling us all about your love for DIY mate.
"I've always been a DIY'er, so I have a lot of experience with wanting to do some upgrade only because it would be a fun project. "
Hardly of huge relevance really is it?

would the bike feel any different?

Yes.

Rhetorical question: On a 2 hour weekend ride, what percentage of the time do you come out of a corner at 100% acceleration, meaning that you are putting as much power through the pedals as you can.

Never. The very nature of a 100% effort means that maximum is not easily replicated. Nevermind repeatedly over a 2 hour ride.

And if you aren't at 100% effort, would you notice a wheel set that is 1 kg lighter? That is what I'm trying to get at. Would one really notice?

Yes. Especially over a 2 hour ride.
Try reading what I said in my previous reply about the reduction in effort required for the same acceleration.
I don't know about you, but a 2 hour ride for me has hundreds of accelerations. not all from pedalling either.

In answer to your question. No I honestly don't think YOU would notice.

 

[JetSedgwick]

soooooo...even though I spent a bunch on fancy new carbon rims I have not noticed any change. They look cool n stuff but if I'm being honest likely a waste of money.

 

[Mteam]

It does depend what the problem with your current wheels you're trying to fix by getting 'better' wheels is, and depends to a large extent where you are starting from with your current wheels, if your current wheels are a very very cheap heavy, flexy, with a terrible hub etc etc, then an upgrade may be worth while, but those roval wheels you have are probably reasonably fit for purpose and therefore you'll already be in the zone of marginal gains for significant expense.

Save your money unless your current rims/hub are already worn out.

For where I ride and how I ride , rims and tyres are one of the areas on a mountain bike where I pick strong and cheap from the strong,light , cheap pick any two adage (The Big Apple: “Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick Two” (mountain bike adage)) , they are a consumable for me.

 

[R120]

Just to refer back to my original post, what you will notice, depends on how the wheels are built up, and thats why its hard to answer your question. Most people building a wheel will be doing so with a specific aim, i.e lightweight, or stronger, so simply put if you decide to build up a wheels set to make you go faster, and choose the right components, then you should notice a difference, but as @Gary said tire choice also plays a big part in that, and it probably even more noticeable than changing wheels.

 

[steve_sordy]

On a 26" analogue bike about six years ago, I replaced a Shimano XT wheelset with an e13 TRS+ wheelset. The e13 s were stiffer and also had quicker engagement. On every measure that I knew about the e13 wheelset was better than the XT. I can't recall at the time that I noticed the quicker engagement, but I sure as hell noticed the stiffness. Rocky downhill corners that had previously given me problems were now easy! The wheel went where I pointed it, there was none of the previous struggle to maintain direction. The feeling of extra control allowed me to go faster. The new wheelset had wider rims and the overall weight was only slightly heavier (~30gm) The tyres, bars and the rest of the set up remained the same. It felt like a significant upgrade. But within a few weeks I'd forgotten all about it; it was the new normal.

Unfortunately the e13 rear hub was appallingly sealed. Despite the excellent 5-year warranty, the first hub lasted 128 miles, the 2nd 711 miles and the third one 786 miles. e13 dealt with each failure very well indeed and replaced the complete hub and bearings each time. But I lost the rear wheel for 3 weeks each time. Nothing ever went wrong with the front wheel, but I wished that I had never bought the wheelset. I sold the bike to an acquaintance and told him the history. The third failure was on his test ride! Three weeks later, he was handed a bike with a completely new rear hub. It failed again after a few months. He had the wheels rebuilt keeping only the rims.