UK fighting it out with e-scooters

[TheRealPoMo]

I pay road tax on two cars, the majority of road repairs are carried out by your local council (poor condition means they don’t actually repair any pot holes) which I also pay council tax for. I also have personal insurance which cover me and third parties if I was ever to be involved in an accident.

People who say cyclist should pay road tax are stupid, when majority of them are doing it for fitness and will already be car owners.

Well I disagree.
I am not stupid - not in this regard anyway.
If we repurpose roads away from the original reason they were built, then we need a new funding model to pay for better, safer, more cycling focused solutions.

 

[JakO]

they were good fun in la especially when pub crawling and then home....... ended up being more costly then getting a Uber though

 

[Roughshod]

If there were less cars on the road then wouldn't the maintenance costs also reduce in some degree?

 

[steve_sordy]

If there were less cars on the road then wouldn't the maintenance costs also reduce in some degree?

You would think so, but it's mostly the heavy good vehicles that do the damage. Road damage is proportional to the fourth power of the weight at the axle. Typical car weight say 1200kg, let's say axle weight is an average of 600kg. Take a 40-tonne truck, typically 5 axles, average 8000kg.

One truck is 8000/600 = 13.33 times heavier. The fourth power is 31,605. To compare that to a car with only 2 axles not 5, then times that by 2.5 and you get 79,013. So a typical HGV does 79,000 times more damage to the road per mile than a typical car. If you disagree with my numbers, chose your car weight, choose your truck weight and redo the maths.

More axles would help. That 40 tonne truck with six axles would do "only" almost 46,000 times the damage instead of 79,000.

A bike with rider weighs 100kg (let's say), ie 50kg per axle. vs a car at 600kg per axle that is 12 times, The fourth power is 20736. So it would take almost 21000 bikes to do as much damage as one car and 1.66 billion bikes to do the same damage per mile as that 5-axle 40-tonne truck.

 

[Roughshod]

Don't think I can fit that many bikes in my shed.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Well I disagree.
I am not stupid - not in this regard anyway.
If we repurpose roads away from the original reason they were built

This seems a bit chicken and egg.

You're upset that roads might be re-purposed away from automobiles .... when roads were never made for them in the first place .. they just kind of bullied their way in there and now drive around as if they own the place, when actually everyone else has right of way over them.

Roads ... yes ... they didn't invent the car and then say .. hey ... lets make roads .. They've been around for 5000-8000 years .. built and paid for with blood, sweat and pain. Only to get destroyed by idiots in cars who can't drive efficiently

History of road transport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So they charge you "road tax" .. which lets face it, is not road tax, it's just tax and none of it goes to roads.

It wasn't made for you in the first place .. Even bicycles were using them a good 60 years before cars .. so what was re-purposed .. they'll actually be re-purposed back to more what they were intended for.

then we need a new funding model to pay for better, safer, more cycling focused solutions.

No. If you just remove all the cars then the cyclists will be safe and won't wear out the road - which was theirs in the first place and you stole it.

 

[steve_sordy]

Don't think I can fit that many bikes in my shed.

Would you even be able to fit 1.6 billion bikes on a mile of road with the footprint of a 40 tonne HGV. I'm not going to do the maths, I'm hoping someone else will.

 

[Banktramp]

This seems a bit chicken and egg.

You're upset that roads might be re-purposed away from automobiles .... when roads were never made for them in the first place .. they just kind of bullied their way in there and now drive around as if they own the place, when actually everyone else has right of way over them.

Roads ... yes ... they didn't invent the car and then say .. hey ... lets make roads .. They've been around for 5000-8000 years .. built and paid for with blood, sweat and pain. Only to get destroyed by idiots in cars who can't drive efficiently

History of road transport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So they charge you "road tax" .. which lets face it, is not road tax, it's just tax and none of it goes to roads.

It wasn't made for you in the first place .. Even bicycles were using them a good 60 years before cars .. so what was re-purposed .. they'll actually be re-purposed back to more what they were intended for.



No. If you just remove all the cars then the cyclists will be safe and won't wear out the road - which was theirs in the first place and you stole it.

 

[KeithR]

Repeating what others have said, but it bears repeating...

oh and if roads become predominately for cyclists rather than vehicles, then cyclists need to pay for them.

We do already - in the UK, anyway. Road tax doesn't go anywhere near the roads.

...if they can afford 8K GBP for a pushbike, they can afford road tax.

Which is irrelevant.

 

[Jamm13dodger]

How long till we see this happen in the UK? Bird is scrapping thousands of electric scooters in the Middle East

 

[Mabman]

This seems a bit chicken and egg.

You're upset that roads might be re-purposed away from automobiles .... when roads were never made for them in the first place .. they just kind of bullied their way in there and now drive around as if they own the place, when actually everyone else has right of way over them.

Roads ... yes ... they didn't invent the car and then say .. hey ... lets make roads .. They've been around for 5000-8000 years .. built and paid for with blood, sweat and pain. Only to get destroyed by idiots in cars who can't drive efficiently

History of road transport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So they charge you "road tax" .. which lets face it, is not road tax, it's just tax and none of it goes to roads.

It wasn't made for you in the first place .. Even bicycles were using them a good 60 years before cars .. so what was re-purposed .. they'll actually be re-purposed back to more what they were intended for.



No. If you just remove all the cars then the cyclists will be safe and won't wear out the road - which was theirs in the first place and you stole it.

Odd that doesn't seem to be the consensus in France at the moment: Electric bike ad banned in France for 'discrediting the auto sector' — Input

I live in Oregon, USA and the state law here allows scooters to top out at 25mph while motor assist bikes are limited to 20mph. If anyone can figure out the reasoning there I am open to hear it.

I do feel that they can serve a purpose as last mile transport but the new scourge here in the US, at least, are this type of "eBike"

While I have no problem calling them MoPeds and allowing them under those rules they are not eBikes.....However those that are buying them, in droves I might add over here, seem to be thinking they are eBikes and that could lead to dangerous access issues here soon.

 

[TheRealPoMo]

By road I meant the contemporary version built since the automobile revolution, not a Roman road, a canal towpath or a bridle trail. To say these roads were not purpose built for cars, trucks etc is puzzling to me.
I seem to have stirred up alot of anti car sympathy here...well whatever floats your boat - which will be hard to tow to the boat ramp with your eMTB....
I take your points that tax is tax and it matters not what it's called.

....and I'm not upset if roads get repurposed if that's the way it goes.....but I doubt it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Odd that doesn't seem to be the consensus in France at the moment: Electric bike ad banned in France for 'discrediting the auto sector' — Input

Sorry, I'm being dumb and I don't think I'm understanding your quote ? A private organisation funded by car companies gets an e-bike advert banned because they claim cars are bad for the environment. And your take from that is that the French consensus is that roads were actually built for cars ??

 

[Zimmerframe]

By road I meant the contemporary version built since the automobile revolution,

It's ok pomo, I think we knew what you meant. I was just being a dick to try and get my point across

I seem to have stirred up alot of anti car sympathy here..

I don't think so, not that I'm reading anyway. I suspect most people on here have a motorised vehicle of some variety and probably couldn't live without it. You suggested that cyclists should pay to use the road, the viewpoint is that they already pay to use the road, that's where the sympathies are that I'm reading in this thread.

 

[urastus]

It's ok pomo, I think we knew what you meant. I was just being a dick to try and get my point across


I don't think so, not that I'm reading anyway. I suspect most people on here have a motorised vehicle of some variety and probably couldn't live without it. You suggested that cyclists should pay to use the road, the viewpoint is that they already pay to use the road, that's where the sympathies are that I'm reading in this thread.

That's my thinking zimmer. Also that cars aren't the almighty king of everything. I have a van and motorbikes and love them, but I think it's time that preference is given to alternative modes of transport. Time for cars to come down in the pecking order, way down.

 

[SquireRides]

I think a grown man Or woman on an e scooter looks weird anywhere else than London city centre!!!

I've been to London. They already look weird there. Self-facilitating media nodes.