Tyre Tape to Seal Permeable Tubeless Tyre

[GrahamPaul]

Tubeless isn't always as straightforward as it ought to be. Especially when you (by that I mean "I") do something stupid.

I've been running tubeless for a few years now on my normal bike and the first thing I did when the Focus arrived a couple of years ago was to upgrade to tubeless. The joke around here is that tyre TPI refers to "Thorns Per Inch", so tubeless is essential.

However, I hit a snag with the Focus: the wheels have eccentric spokes so that the spoke holes are all up on one shoulder of the rim and not in the centre valley. This makes seating the bead difficult because of the little "dents" that occur in the rim tape under pressure in the rather large and oval spoke holes. With brand new rim tape and a nice clean new tyre it's easy enough to pop the bead onto the rim with plenty of washing up liquid as lube.

However, when it's time to change that tyre, the spoke hole dents make it impossible to pop the bead on, no matter how big the airshot can or CO2 cannister. So I always seat the tyre with an inner tube, leaving the spoke hole side seated to remove the tube and pop the other bead on. A bit of a pain (literally) breaking Schwalbe beads away from the rim, but it doesn't take too long and it isn't something I needed to do every week.

I left the bike out in the sunshine to dry after a wash a week or two back. Came back to find a flat front tyre. Now I'd been having a bit of trouble with the valve seating in the rim (so I thought), so I popped the non-spoke hole bead and changed the valve. Popped the tyre back on the rim but couldn't get the tyre to stay up for long. There's a tiny hole in the rim which was blowing hard. So the leak was the rim tape.

Nearly busted my fingers taking the bead off the spoke side because it was so well bedded in, but eventually got the tyre off. The rim tape had split on spoke holes in 3 locations. I guess the tyres had got so hot that the rim tape had warmed and weakened enough to split on the holes - some of those holes are sharp.

Okay, no problem. Rim washed, scrubbed, picked clean and then new rim tape applied.

Now I did something truly, utterly and incredibly stupid...

It seemed to me that the tyre bead was a bit manky and wasn't going to sit on the rim bead too well. So I thought I would probably need to use an inner tube to get the spoke hole side seated. But there was no way I'd ever get that tube back out again given the half litre of sticky sealant gummed to the tyre innards. Genius that I am, I cleaned out the inside of the tyre. Looked like new, it did.

Took a look at the nice clean tyre and the shiny, tight, new rim tape and decided that I didn't now need to use an inner tube. Used a bit of washing up liquid and my airshot can and, BANG, straight onto the rim beads with no effort. Then the tyre went flat. Quickly...

A quick pump up and I found a hole letting through loads of air. No problem, I thought, I can plug that. (Happily, I hadn't yet put any sealant in the tyre. I make a mess if I put the sealant in before seating the tyre. I'll stick with shoving it in through the valve. That works for me.) I marked the hole but seemed to be feeling quite a bit of a draught from elsewhere while I had my thumb covering the hole. Aha!, I thought, must be another hole. So I liberally covered my tyre in the washing up liquid... It bubbled everywhere. I've seen tea bags less permeable than that tyre!

Yup. I'd managed to remove every bit of seal from every puncture and thorn prick that that tyre had had. If I'd have added sealant, I'd have whitewashed my garage with it. The worst of it was, I'd done such a good job on seating the tyre, I couldn't get the bloody thing off the rim again. After what felt like a week of struggling and cursing, I did shift it. Happily, I'd bought a couple of spares when I last bought tyres (they were in a sale) and a few minutes later I had wheel sealed, pumped and back in the bike.

However, that left me with a partly used tea bag tyre which I have been wondering what to do with. It seems silly to throw away a tyre which was perfectly good up until I removed it guts. Especially at the moment, when any spare parts seem to be like hen's teeth. Especially on the edge of Europe, as we are.

Last night, on a club ride, I mentioned this. One of the guys said that a bike shop in the next town had a special tyre tape for just this purpose.

This set me to thinking. I've never seen a "tyre tape". Does such a thing exist? Or is it just Gorilla tape?

It seems to me that Gorilla tape would provide a good enough seal to the inside of the tyre until the sealant had done its magic and coated the tyre copiously.

Has anyone done this? Can you see any disadvantages?

Someone else must have done this... or am I the only one that stupid?

 

[steve_sordy]

I used to be a huge fan of Gorilla tape for rim tape, but following a well catalogued (on here) problem I will no longer have it near my bike. But your suggestion to use it on the tyre walls (and tread presumably) bears discussion. Will the tape still stick as the tyre expands? It probably will because Gorilla tape sticks like shit to a blanket. What will happen when you ride the bike, will the tape adhesion survive the inevitable tyre distortion? I realise that you only need the tape to stick for long enough for the sealant to do its job, but what then? You will have that awful stuff inside your tyre for the rest of its life. Based upon personal experience, latex sealants seem to attack the adhesive that Gorilla use. I say sealants, actually I can only speak for one sealant - Continental Revo sealant. It is still a latex-based sealant but it is ammonia free and supposedly designed for their own tyres.

Back to your original problem. The soapy liquid showed lots of bubbles, indicating lots of prior punctures. But so what? Sealant seals very quickly - we've all seen the adverts and have witnessed it ourselves. My recommendation would be to proceed as normal, but make certain that the sealant has been thoroughly shaken to ensure that the particles are evenly distributed and not in a congealed solid at the bottom of the bottle (another personal experience). Get one side of the tyre engaged on the rim, add the sealant (add a bit more on account of all the holes). Engage the second side, inflate and give the tyre a bloody good shake. Then check the air pressure, pump to at least 30psi and leave the wheel to rest horizontally; I use a bucket, but a couple of bricks will do. I leave it for 30 mins before checking the pressure, restore if necessary. Then give a good shake and put it back on the bucket other side up for another 30 mins. Even with tyres that have had two dozen prior punctures this process has not failed me. The sealant will only piss out if you have a big hole, bigger than that inflicted with a 6mm screwdriver, but even then, it should seal if the particles are present. If not then you need the bacon strips. Or maybe a patch of Gorilla tape inside the tyre (but that will entail removing the tyre, cleaning it up, starting again......).

 

[steve_sordy]

PS: Note on the word "permeable".

Tyres are permeable, ie they will pass air. Slowly, but they will pass air, especially those tyres that are not proper UST. During inflation of a new tyre, I have seen thousands of white volcanoes erupting on the tyre walls caused by air escaping through tiny pores and foaming the soapy liquid. Once the latex gets to work, they stop.

 

[Jackware]

I'll add tyre tape to the list of other useful items I can't seem to buy;
Tartan paint, long weights and hammer lube.

 

[TheRealPoMo]

My first Nobby Nics circa 2019 showed lots of tiny bubbles on the surface of the tyres in a water trough straight after doing the tubeless process. Did not take long to completely seal though with a bit of movement. Later ones did not show such bubbling nor did the Maxxis I have now.

 

[GrahamPaul]

My first Nobby Nics circa 2019 showed lots of tiny bubbles on the surface of the tyres in a water trough straight after doing the tubeless process. Did not take long to completely seal though with a bit of movement. Later ones did not show such bubbling nor did the Maxxis I have now.

These are "proper" tubeless tyres that were fine and never showed any surface weeping when they were/are new. The bubbles (mostly jets of air strong enough to burst the bubbles) are caused by the hundreds of thorn punctures.

I can follow Steve's thinking about the sealant plugging the holes reasonably quickly. However, there are so many fair sized holes that I reckon that me and my garage and going to get a whitewashing. And that bloody stuff is awful to clean up. I've still got some stuck to the frame from the last monster hole in the rear tyre, which also ruined a good set of bib shorts.

 

[steve_sordy]

.................
I can follow Steve's thinking about the sealant plugging the holes reasonably quickly. However, there are so many fair sized holes that I reckon that me and my garage and going to get a whitewashing. And that bloody stuff is awful to clean up. I've still got some stuck to the frame from the last monster hole in the rear tyre, which also ruined a good set of bib shorts.

I still believe that when the sealant does not stop the leaks (unless it's a huge one) it is caused by the sealant not being properly mixed before being added to the tyre. My first use of a latex sealant suffered from operator error in that way. I later found a solid plug of bits at the bottom of the bottle. Any latex sealant should seal a thorn puncture, the number of thorn holes would have to be very large for them to overwhelm a standard dose. If you know that you have a lot of holes, then increase the dose.

Before I used a latex sealant, I used to use a non-latex sealant called Puncture Guard (XC and DH variants). It looked a bit like Slime in that it was green and was gloopy in texture. It wasn't as good at sealing non-tubeless tyres because it was better at sealing actual holes than it was a porous carcase. But on the plus side, it never dried out, nor leave an "Alien" like coating on the inside of the tyre, like latex does. Can't get it now, or I would still be using it.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Before I used a latex sealant, I used to use a non-latex sealant called Puncture Guard (XC and DH variants). It looked a bit like Slime in that it was green and was gloopy in texture. It wasn't as good at sealing non-tubeless tyres because it was better at sealing actual holes than it was a porous carcase. But on the plus side, it never dried out, nor leave an "Alien" like coating on the inside of the tyre, like latex does. Can't get it now, or I would still be using it.

Linseal Oko tyre sealant Linseal | OKO - Technology for Tyre Punctures is your go to, it has loads of chopped up rubber granules in a water based magic solution. Will fill any hole up to stupid diameters but there’s the rub. If you have a say over 3mm hole, it will fill it and seal it at higher pressures ( its magic properties are to do with viscous under pressure ) but we run low pressures. At low pressures the tyre moves around a lot on the trail and that will dislodge the plug of rubber granules with the sudden release of pressure. You can stop, pump the tyre up again and in 1 minute or 10 days time suddenly the plug will dislodge. Really infuriating as you can pump the tyre up, put it in a water bath and not a leak to be seen. Usually eventually you see a weeping area on the tyre and pyou can put in a plug.

Its great stuff as it never really dries out and if it does, just put a tiny bit of water in the tyre and it soon remixes to a gloopy type consistency . What it is crap at is tiny little brand new tyre / rim leaks. I use a latex solution, wait 3 months until it’s nearly dried out ( just lower your pressure, take out the valve and see if any fluid comes out if you give the wheel a slow shake with the valve at the bottom ) top up with the OKO solution and you’re good to go for the next 9 months.

 

[Gary]

Personally I'd avoid OKO. It's pretty terrible overall due to the downsides noted above.
and standard Gorilla/gaffer tape isn't actually air tight or waterproof. It's just an adhesive weatherproof fabric tape. So it's kinda down to luck (and the addition of sealant) when it seals tubeless rims

In order to cover your offset nipple holes you'll need to use a slifhtly wider non porous tubeless tape. Just wide enough that it reaches the rims bead hook and for non tubeless/porous sidewalls a latex based sealant. Eg. stans/orangeseal /Cafe latex etc.) should work best.

Larger holes /tears can be successfully patched from the inside using automotive tyre patches and vulcanising solution

 

[Waynemarlow]

Are you sure Gary that Oko sealant is that terrible from you actually having used it or are just anecdotally passing on something you’ve seen on the internet. An awful lot of the MX and Enduro motorcycles have used it with great results for a lot of years. Equally our wider larger tyres are not unsimilar now to those on say the smaller agricultural tyres where again it seems to work well ( in wheelbarrow tyres on building sites it’s brilliant).We ride on flint strewn trails with lots of sharpies that really do put decent size holes in tyres, all too often we see riders parked up fitting tubes after the Stans latex based sealants has coated their bikes and clothes without sealing the hole, it’s actually quite limited to how big a hole can be.

The Oko sealant will fill those holes no problem and if you are aware of its foibles then you can adapt your ways to work with it. If we get a tyre deflate with Oko in it we know it’s a serious big hole, over inflate the tyre slightly to about 25 - 30 psi and that will get you home where you can clean the tyre and look for the culprit hole. Simply fit an equally big plug in said hole and usually you are good to go or as suggested put a patch on the inner side.

Incidentally I’ve never really got good adhesion with patches on the inner side of the tyre after using Stans, for some reason it seems to prevent the vulcanising action even if you have abraided the tyre. Lately I’ve been using the thickened super glue used for building works, seems to almost weld the hole as well as the patch.

 

[Konanige]

Nowt wrong with OKO sealant I've ben using it in mtb tyres for 15 years and wheelbarrows and tractors for a lot longer than that. To the OP I would suggest painting some sealant round the inside of the tyre and letting it dry before putting it on and adding more sealant, has worked for me in the past.

 

[Gary]

No. Wayne. I've used OKO.

I mainly use lightweight single ply tyres. Not wheelbarrow tyres.

I don't ever blindly regurgitate online strangers anecdotal nonsense. There's already way way too much of that

 

[Gary]

Incidentally I’ve never really got good adhesion with patches on the inner side of the tyre after using Stans, for some reason it seems to prevent the vulcanising action even if you have abraided the tyre

If that happens. Either use a gas lighter on the area. Or simply peel that first patch off, wait for the area to dry again and apply a second patch in exactly the same spot.
I have tyres with multiple patches and they've always lasted the life of the tyre.
Not to teach you to suck eggs but, You do realise vulcanising solution isn't really a glue but chemically melts the patch to adhere and needs to be pretty much dry to the touch when you apply the patch?

 

[steve_sordy]

Another learning day!

I never knew that ammonia attacks the rims. I thought it was the tyre that was attacked.

Potential for another learning event...

Is it safe to assume that the anodised finish on the rims makes the metal underneath safe? If so, is it only the bare metal of the rim where scratches or machined holes have removed the finish that gets attacked?

 

[Gary]

Begs the question. How on earth is sealant/amonia getting to the bare alloy at the valve hole drilling with a properly taped, properly seated tubeless valve?

 

[steve_sordy]

Begs the question. How on earth is sealant/amonia getting to the bare alloy at the valve hole drilling with a properly taped, properly seated tubeless valve?

I would presume that the valve was not properly seated, whether by error, wrong valve seat, ignorance or incompetence. But then the sealant did its job by working its way into the crevice. The valve seat no longer leaks air and the tubeless installation is considered a success. Previously, I would have considered that a success, not realising that I had let in some ammonia dosed sealant into contact with bare alloy.

Now, if the valve seat leaks, I will remove, clean and redo.

Best to buy ammonia-free sealant though, just to be on the safe side.

 

[Gary]

Had a quick Google and found that amonia on its own seemingly isn't particularly corrosive to aluminium. But if salt and air are present that can cause an chemical/electrical reaction whereby it causes the aluminium to corrode at an accelerated rate.
For all of these things to come into play I'd have thought you'd be looking at quite a bit of user incompetence and fair bit of bad luck.

 

[steve_sordy]

Had a quick Google and found that amonia on its own seemingly isn't particularly corrosive to aluminium. But if salt and air are present that can cause an chemical/electrical reaction whereby it causes the aluminium to corrode at an accelerated rate.
For all of these things to come into play I'd have thought you'd be looking at quite a bit of user incompetence and fair bit of bad luck.

Very useful input. I have had zero problems with the sort of corrosion reported here. I am not presuming an absence of incompetence however, just that I don't live anywhere near the sea!

 

[Gary]

Thing is. your tubeless valve's rubber "bung" should be making a seal between itself and the watertight rim tape. and the rimtape should be sealing all rim spokeholes again making a waterproof seal.
ergo. No sealant should leak through any spoke holes or actually be in contact with the valve drilling via the valve seal.

if you naively use a non waterproof rim tape (Gaffer/Gorilla) this may not be the case.

I'm surprised at Extra openly blaming Stans. That really isn't very professional of them.
Quite amusing though knowing just how terrible many crank brothers products actually are.

 

[Gary]

i dont live buy the sea

I do *waves*
There will still be salt present in the dirt you ride

 

[GrahamPaul]

Personally I'd avoid OKO. It's pretty terrible overall due to the downsides noted above.
and standard Gorilla/gaffer tape isn't actually air tight or waterproof. It's just an adhesive weatherproof fabric tape. So it's kinda down to luck (and the addition of sealant) when it seals tubeless rims

In order to cover your offset nipple holes you'll need to use a slifhtly wider non porous tubeless tape. Just wide enough that it reaches the rims bead hook and for non tubeless/porous sidewalls a latex based sealant. Eg. stans/orangeseal /Cafe latex etc.) should work best.

100% with you there. I've used Schwalbe rim tape over the whole width. However, I put a narrow run of Schwalbe tape over the spoke holes. I think that the problem is a combination of the sharp, elliptical holes and the tyres/wheels getting so darned hot here that the tape gets softened.

I've used Caffelatex from the start. Can't stand the smell of the ammonia sealants and Caffelatex has been fine at sealing even the largest holes on the trail. Needs topping up every 6 weeks to 2 months, though - probably down to the number of punctures per day...

One thing for @steve_sordy : Caffelatex comes in a bottle which you need to invert - especially useful for those who cannot follow instructions to "shake the bottle".