Tubeless is turning into a right faff

[Ian222]

Ok so firstly there is the expense, tubed is the cost of an inner tube so say £5, tyre levers £5 and a pump £10. Tubeless is valves at £25, sealant £15, rim tape £15, tyre pump £50. So after all that is it worth it? None of my mates bother with it, they get a puncture, they change the tube and back on it, me I have to plug it and then inflate it I personally use co2, sealant spray over the bike . I have done 1100 miles and just had my first puncture. I am beginning to wonder if it’s all worth it. I am committed to it really but would I have had more punctures with tubes? Who knows. I think if you are mainly doing tarmac riding then no it’s just not worth it. Full on off roading then maybe it’s better. What’s peoples opinions?

 

[Expidia]

Ha! I've been going through your exact question back and forth in my mind. Another odd thing I found is I really like the tread pattern that came on my Trek Power Fly because they are knobby on the edges for grip, but are are also decent rollers on pavement and hard pack (Bontrager LT4 Expert Reflective). Odd thing is Trek includes tubeless ready rims, but the tires are not tubeless.

Then I figured when these wear out, I'll go tubeless. These are 2.4 inches in width and tubeless with a similar tread pattern are like a 1/2 inch narrower, which is a deal breaker for me.

Also for some reason these OEM tires are $45 each. Tubeless are $80. I can buy "two sets" of tubed for the price of tubeless!

I had already purchased the Muc-Off, the bacon strips and the install tool for a tubeless puncture emergency kit on the trail, but the first time the LBS tried to swap these tires to tubeless . . . they realized they have a wire bead and they continued to ooze the pink crap.

Like you, I've only had one flat after a 1,000 miles and this 3 inch shard of metal I piicked up last week would have taken out a tubeless or tubed tire anyway, so I still will always have to carry a spare tube.

True, all automobile tires are tubeless and tubeless are supposed to seal the small leaks . . . I think most ETMB'ers like tubeless more so for the weight savings and they can run them at lower pressures. But I'm not a jumper and with my 60 lb bike, for me a 2 lb weight savings is no big deal. I'll continue to run tubed for now and just notch up the assist level, if need be

 

[mtb-steve]

I've had tubeless tyres with over 12 punctures still inflated. Tyres with a lot of thorns sticking through, still inflated.
How many tubes would that have been?
The sealant does more than two tyres, the pump last for years and the tubeless valves are reusable (I didn't pay anything like £25)
I'd not go back to tubes unless I'm forced to for some reason.

 

[mxh]

It's interesting to look at the inside of a tubeless tyre when you take it off to replace it. I usually see at least a few areas where sealant balls have formed, which is basically the sealant plugging a hole without me even knowing I'd got a puncture.

If I was running a tube, I'm assuming that most, if not all, of these would have resulted in a flat tyre and a tube change. So for me, it's worth the extra cost.

 

[Expidia]

It's interesting to look at the inside of a tubeless tyre when you take it off to replace it. I usually see at least a few areas where sealant balls have formed, which is basically the sealant plugging a hole without me even knowing I'd got a puncture.

If I was running a tube, I'm assuming that most, if not all, of these would have resulted in a flat tyre and a tube change. So for me, it's worth the extra cost.

Or build tires like the OEM ones I'm running that have a kevlar layer which might be preventing many of those small punctures that sealant would be sealing. And then there is always the various foam inserts to help stave off punctures.

 

[Ian222]

Good shout. I will take a good look at my tyre once I clean the sealant from inside for any holes that it may have sealed without me knowing

 

[mxh]

Or build tires like the OEM ones I'm running that have a kevlar layer which might be preventing many of those small punctures that sealant would be sealing. And then there is always the various foam inserts to help stave off punctures.

Fair point - but both of those are adding weight to the wheels, which is the worst place to add it. One of the plus points of tubeless is the weight saving.

But I agree there's pro's and con's of every setup - if there wasn't then we'd all be running that one 'perfect' setup.

 

[KnollyBro]

Ok so firstly there is the expense, tubed is the cost of an inner tube so say £5, tyre levers £5 and a pump £10. Tubeless is valves at £25, sealant £15, rim tape £15, tyre pump £50. So after all that is it worth it? None of my mates bother with it, they get a puncture, they change the tube and back on it, me I have to plug it and then inflate it I personally use co2, sealant spray over the bike . I have done 1100 miles and just had my first puncture. I am beginning to wonder if it’s all worth it. I am committed to it really but would I have had more punctures with tubes? Who knows. I think if you are mainly doing tarmac riding then no it’s just not worth it. Full on off roading then maybe it’s better. What’s peoples opinions?

If you didn't get that many flats before going tubeless, there must have been a reason why you went tubeless. The main reason for riding tubeless is for lower tire pressure and no flats. When I was running tubes, I would be replacing rims every year. When you start dealing tire inserts like Cushcore, thats where the fun really begins

 

[silles]

After my first puncture, i just changed my inner tubes with ones that have slime in it. 2000km latter, havent had a single puncture. Could be just luck

Its even heavier now than before.. probably +200g.

 

[Bndit]

For me tubeless is all about going low pressures for max traction without having punctures. It all started with fatbike. I watched some videos about tubeless setup and thought that it might be difficult and messy to set up, but I'd do it after I get first puncture. I didn't have to wait long . And it wasn't difficult and I'll never go back to tubes with mountain bike (Exception to this is my spiked winter tires for Levo, they are so shit to set tubeless so I have to use tubes )

 

[Ian222]

Running lower pressures wasn’t my reason, to be honest it was just to be different to my mates and I got a lot of the gear for free when I bought my bike so didn’t have the expense at first. I did used to get quite a few punctures on my old ebike with tubes.

 

[Swissrider]

Mixed feelings about runnning tubeless. I think if one rides in an area with lots of thorns, it’s a pretty good idea. I hit a sharp rock and ripped a sidewall on my tubeless set up, so had to use an inner tube to get home. I repaired the rip but I could not get the tyre to seal to the rim, so went back to an inner tube. Since then I run 20psi and have not had a puncture in 2000. On another bike which came with tubes I had my first puncture in ages (pinch flat) and so went tubeless In that wheel. For some reason the tyre gradually loses pressure which is odd since I thought Stans would seal any small leaks, but air is getting out somewhere. So, this is a bit annoying. I left the other wheel with a tube and never have to touch it.

 

[steve_sordy]

Before I went tubeless, I was getting a flat every 14 miles. I tried putting Slime in my tubes and that worked, but the tube+Slime combo was heavy and on a manual bike that matters especially when it's on the edges of the wheels. So the Slime went when I took up mtb (rather than just local tracks on a hybrid bike). After a year or so, I went tubeless because everyone said it reduced weight. But after a lot of thought and reading up on the internet, I decided that what I really wanted was to reduce my exposure to flats. I'd had enough of replacing tubes by the trail side in the rain, with other riders passing by and splashing me with mud. Note that I said "flats" - I really didn't care about punctures, just as long as the puncture didn't turn into a flat. And I wasn't too bothered about a small weight penalty as long as I didn't get any flats.

My first tubeless experience was to dump the basic 26x2.1" Maxxis Ignitor tyres and replace them with some Maxxis LUST (Ignitors too I believe, it's a long time ago now). LUST = Lightweight Ultimate Sidewall Technology. The word LUST was on the sidewalls in big purple and yellow letters! LUST was the Maxxis version of the Mavic UST tyres (UST = Universal Systeme Tubeless, I think). Those LUST tyres were 26x2.35" tyres and from memory, each new tyre +sealant was 70g heavier than the old tyre + tube. But as I said I wasn't bothered by 70g/wheel.

It worked brilliantly! I was able to reduce my tyre pressures because I no longer had to worry about getting snake bites. I got better grip and a smoother ride. I also discovered that the bike rolled better over rough trails. I'm not talking big rocks here, but the sort of trails that have lots of roots and small rocks. The tyres just float over them. I was being followed down that type of trail by a mate I'd been riding with for years and he told me that while I was not pedalling, he had to pedal in order to keep up with me! Tubeless worked for me; I never got a flat, not one, for years and years and I loved the feel.

Flats vs punctures. For a while, I used a non-latex sealant that was bright fluorescent green (PunctureGuard, not Slime) and after parking overnight, it used to leave a green dot where every puncture had occurred. So it was easy to see how many punctures I'd had. On a set of Continental Trail Kings 27.5 x 2.2", I had an average of two dozen punctures on each tyre and not one single flat. Yes, I know that if it was producing a dot, then it was leaking out! But that sealant never went off, never left any balls inside to rumble about and never left a manky coating inside that looked like something from an Alien movie. Can't get it anymore, so I'm back to latex sealants, but at least latex does a good job of sealing the sidewalls of non-TLR tyres. I check my tyre pressure before every ride, so a slow pressure loss is no problem to me.

Like others have said, I'll never go back to tubes except in an emergency.

 

[theremotejuggernaut]

I have done 1100 miles and just had my first puncture.

After considering it for ages and using slime tubes as a stop gap, the main factor in me swapping to tubeless was 4 punctures in as many miles.

It was dark and raining.

The new tube I fitted was immediately punctured by a thorn which was residing in the tyre.

1100 miles with one puncture?! And you question whether it's worth it?

Take the tyre off and see how many splinters from thorns are stuck in your tyre. Every one of those would have been a puncture.

Last time I did this I pulled 8 thorns out that I never even noticed. That's from one tyre.

If you'd have been riding tubes you'd have had a lot more than 1 puncture in 1100 miles!

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Funny how the whole tubeless thing has gone.
Prior it was an innertube used for decades, but admittedly the faff of getting it out/repaired etc led to us filling the tube with a special sealant.
After that they did away entirely with the tube and thats when the fun, and more importantly cash outlay began.

So you need specific tyres, sealant, valves, and while this helps fit the tyre, getting it inflated became problematic, and a specialist type pump was introduced. But still tyres were subject to punctures making holes big enough that the sealant leaked out, so what was needed was something to fix the hole were puncture plugs, along with the tool for fitting them.
Plus tubeless lose air faster than innertubes.

But despite all these advances, and the specialist tools needed when you run tubeless, it is almost always prudent to also carry with you an innertube.

Innertube cost - Average £7
Tubeless costs - Well thats the rub isnt it. Can be looking at anywhere up to £100 if you include an 'air blast' pump.

Im sure someone will point out they can run lower pressures, placing more tread onto the ground and allowing the tread to track to the terrain better. But the downside of these lower pressures means rims, which certainly are not cheap these days, at more in risk of impacting the rocks, and/or slicing through the sidewalls.

So have we moved forward ?. Or have we moved back. Or are we in pretty much the same position but spending a great deal more money and have been completely hoodwinked.


Interesting to note 90% of motocross use tubes.

 

[JP-NZ]

So have we moved forward ?. Or have we moved back. Or are we in pretty much the same position but spending a great deal more money and have been completely hoodwinked.


Interesting to note 90% of motocross use tubes.

What percentage of cars use tubes?

Tubeless was originally to simplify and save weight for MTB riders. Obviously Ebikes are a lot heavier (sometimes over double) so there can be issues.

I don't buy the cost comparison, majority of MTB wheels nowadays are Tubeless ready (valves included) so all you need is sealant and a hand pump. Ive fitted 8 tyres onto various rims with a hand pump (as long as you seat the bead correctly its easy) . Plugs do cost more than patches but plugs actually work when I wouldn't rely on a patch kit to work first time.

Overall for small pinch flats and snakebites I'd take a tubeless setup with sealant over replacing a tube over and over again. If you've ripped a hole in the tyre big enough that the plug doesn't work then a tube will be pointless too.

For interests sake, My recommended favs:
Stans Sealant
Muc off tyre plug kit
Maxxis tyres

 

[Expidia]

Funny how the whole tubeless thing has gone.
Prior it was an innertube used for decades, but admittedly the faff of getting it out/repaired etc led to us filling the tube with a special sealant.
After that they did away entirely with the tube and thats when the fun, and more importantly cash outlay began.

So you need specific tyres, sealant, valves, and while this helps fit the tyre, getting it inflated became problematic, and a specialist type pump was introduced. But still tyres were subject to punctures making holes big enough that the sealant leaked out, so what was needed was something to fix the hole were puncture plugs, along with the tool for fitting them.
Plus tubeless lose air faster than innertubes.

But despite all these advances, and the specialist tools needed when you run tubeless, it is almost always prudent to also carry with you an innertube.

Innertube cost - Average £7
Tubeless costs - Well thats the rub isnt it. Can be looking at anywhere up to £100 if you include an 'air blast' pump.

Im sure someone will point out they can run lower pressures, placing more tread onto the ground and allowing the tread to track to the terrain better. But the downside of these lower pressures means rims, which certainly are not cheap these days, at more in risk of impacting the rocks, and/or slicing through the sidewalls.

So have we moved forward ?. Or have we moved back. Or are we in pretty much the same position but spending a great deal more money and have been completely hoodwinked.


Interesting to note 90% of motocross use tubes.

"More importantly cash outlay began". . . . that was also my observations too. Of the two shops I use many shops are very adament about I should be letting them change me over to tubeless (when the bike was a week old yet).

Tubeless is also creating an ongoing revenue stream for the LBS. The first shop charged me $50 per tire plus sealant and he was trying to mount the OEM non tubeless ready tires and they wouldn't seal (shocka). Then he put my tubes back in and charged me like another $35.

I might go tubeless when the OEM tires wear out, but as I mentioned above the tubeless tires alone are twice the cost.
And for me the worst part is the re-seating of the beads on these OEM tires (Steve did give me some good tips in another thread).
But before I go tubeless I need to buy a high volume comtressor of some sort as I'm not aying a LBS $100 to mount two tires each time or to swap them out.

Tubeless revenue reminds me of the automobile oil change cash grab as a way of creating higher revenues for dealers and repair shops. Since the newer cars don't break down as often they lose on some of the repair stuff. So an oil change and filter change used to be $20 with a coupon. Now I pay $135 to $150 for an oil and filter change. They use full synthetic which you only change once every 3-5k miles so to make up for that they now charge 8 times what the $20 oil change used to be.

 

[JP-NZ]

"More importantly cash outlay began". . . . etc etc etc

It sounds like you are not using tubeless ready tyres ? No wonder its costing you so much money and effort... Stick to tubes until you can afford to upgrade

Sorry, just saw you ride a powerfly commuter, no point running tubeless on that bike IMHO

 

[Spangoolies]

Been riding tubeless for probably over 5 years now and never looked back. All 3 of my bikes (ebike, naturally aspirated mountain bike and DH bike) are set up tubeless and once you get the knack of it it’s easy and relatively cheap to do with benefits of less unsprung mass and rotating weight, added traction and less punctures. (That’s my personal experience)
Setting up is a piece of cake now. Very rarely have a tyre/rim combo that I can’t inflate with a track pump with the valve core removed. Had one tyre combo that needed some extra help so a very cheap presta-schraeder adaptor and a trip to the local garage to blow it up with the compressor (or use a co2 inflator for those very rare occasions) and it’s sorted.
Always use gorilla tape as it’s cheaper and works a treat.
New sealant can be added once or twice a year via the valve(core removed) using a cheap syringe.
I used to get through quite a lot of tubes, all of them with at least a few patches. Since going tubeless I’ve honestly not had a single normal puncture that I’ve noticed, only had one pinch flat that I patched and sewed up and got a few more months out of. Only one other friend out of our group had a puncture that required a plug. Instantly sorted in less than a minute and we were back on the trails. Our group regularly ride bike parks, Welsh mountain trails as well as yearly trips to the Alps so I’m confident we put our set-ups to the test. I’m not saying I’m a top rider but I’ve hit every black feature on Fastwood in the Tignes resort so I’m not amateur plus I’m 40 and been riding mountain bikes since me early teens.
On long rides I carry a co2 inflator and plugs, I only carry a spare tube and kit on very long rides, I’m confident in my tyres by now that I’m likely to be fine. Local rides I carry nothing but a multi tool and it’s seen me good this far.
Only one of us has recently tried tyre inserts but I’ve personally not found the need to just yet.
Tubeless doesn’t need to be too expensive or a hassle. When doing it right, the benefits outweigh the cons in my experience

 

[LouCyffer]

I recently changed both tyres on my Levo. 7 thorns in the front, 11 in the rear that I wasn’t aware of. Plus the two that I knew about that I pulled out (knowing I was swapping tyres) which immediately sealed. I haven’t used tubes for years on any of my bikes (MTB & gravel).
For me, tubeless means a higher chance of getting home without a flat. I have no issues swapping tyres etc but wherever possible I don’t want to have to do it at the trail side getting filthy when I could deal with it at home.
It isn’t for everyone, I acknowledge but for me it’s the better option. My advice is simply to try it and see. Worst case revert to tubes if it’s not for you.

 

[rop12770]

I'm a tubeless tyre user for years now and no problems whatsoever, but on my "new" EMTB the tires are not Tubeless ready (the previous owner was running with tubes) and the tyres are still good for many km, so I asked the store to add some tubes with slime, that will prevent any punctures. When the tyres go out, I will change for tubeless again.

 

[steve_sordy]

I'm a tubeless tyre user for years now and no problems whatsoever, but on my "new" EMTB the tires are not Tubeless ready (the previous owner was running with tubes) and the tyres are still good for many km, so I asked the store to add some tubes with slime, that will prevent any punctures. When the tyres go out, I will change for tubeless again.

Because I didn't know any better at the time, I discovered that a latex sealant seals the sidewalls of non-tubeless ready tyres. I witnessed what happens with a non-latex sealant on non-TLR tyres. I had just inflated the tyre and had laid the wheel on its side. The excess of soapy water was all over the tyre and I noticed thousands of white mini-volcanoes erupting all over the sidewall. I put this down to air under pressure leaking through the tyre and foaming the soap solution. Some say that all tyres are not porous, but I disagree.
I couldn't get that tyre to hold pressure with non-latex sealant (it was Puncture Guard), but once I switched to a latex sealant, I had no problem.

 

[steve_sordy]

.....................................................
Always use gorilla tape as it’s cheaper and works a treat.
..........................................

I agree with everything you say on your post, except your recco to use Gorilla tape on your rims. Yes it is cheap, yes it looks great and yes it works. But when you come to remove it...AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!! See the link below to why I hold that view, based upon experience.

Removing Gorilla tape residue from wheel rims

I used Gorilla tape on my wheel rims, as recommended by my LBS. It's great, looks fantastic and it works a treat. But Oh boy! When you want to remove it what an absolute sod! When you peel it off the thick sticky adhesive is left behind. I have tried a proprietary "Sticky Stuff Remover" that...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Bndit]

Because I didn't know any better at the time, I discovered that a latex sealant seals the sidewalls of non-tubeless ready tyres. I witnessed what happens with a non-latex sealant on non-TLR tyres. I had just inflated the tyre and had laid the wheel on its side. The excess of soapy water was all over the tyre and I noticed thousands of white mini-volcanoes erupting all over the sidewall. I put this down to air under pressure leaking through the tyre and foaming the soap solution. Some say that all tyres are not porous, but I disagree.
I couldn't get that tyre to hold pressure with non-latex sealant (it was Puncture Guard), but once I switched to a latex sealant, I had no problem.

Good tires hold air without sealant, like Scwalbes Super Trail and Super Gravity tires. And you don't neccessary need any tools to install tires or at least, any soapy water. I have never used any lubricant's installing tires and I bet sealant's and soapy water don't mix well together.

 

[Alexbn921]

99% of riders around here switch to tubeless 10+ years ago. I would never ever ever use tubes again or recommend anyone else use tubes, unless they didn't ride much.
It's not even a contest which one is better and you either deal with learning it or you don't.

 

[steve_sordy]

Good tires hold air without sealant, like Scwalbes Super Trail and Super Gravity tires. And you don't neccessary need any tools to install tires or at least, any soapy water. I have never used any lubricant's installing tires and I bet sealant's and soapy water don't mix well together.

I agree that, now, good tyres will hold air. Since tubeless became a thing when Mavic launched their UST tubeless system of tyres and rims, many other tyre companies have followed suit with compatible tyres that will hold air without sealant. But even if you don't need a sealant to hold air, you will need it to seal a puncture. However, I was referring to tyres that were not designed for tubeless and didn't have to have sidewalls that were impermeable to pressurised air. Just because they were porous to air didn't mean that they were not "good" tyres, they were just designed for tubes - tubeless was not a factor at that time.

I have read many posts, here and elsewhere, that some people can remove and install tyres with their bare hands. I envy them; I used to be able to do most of the work with just my hands but nearly always needed at least one tyre lever for that last bit. As more and more tyres became tubeless or tubeless ready and the rim designs changed to suit, my requirement for tools increased. Now I always need at least two tyre levers (maybe it's my arthritis). I have also found that some tyres are harder than others, or maybe it's the rims, or the rim/tyre combo? I have always found Maxxis tyres to fit easily on my bikes, whereas WTB tyres can be a bit of a swine to get off and on!

As for the use of soapy water, I used to think that this was to help seal the gap between the tyre bead and the rim before it was in place. I assumed this would help the air blast to push the bead into place. I made this assumption because those that were advocating the use of soapy water never said WHY. I now know that the use of soapy water is to reduce friction between the bead and the rim and to help the air blast to seat the tyre. That makes much more sense to me.

As for the possible lack of compatibility of soapy water and latex sealant. I have absolutely no idea. I have never had a problem that I could assign to that, nor read of one either. I have seen the use of soapy water advocated on many websites. More importantly, I have never seen a warning on sealant packaging to avoid the use of soapy water. That does not make you wrong! But it does mean that I will continue to use soapy water because I am reluctant to give up its utility without evidence to the contrary.

 

[Spangoolies]

Removing Gorilla tape residue from wheel rims

I used Gorilla tape on my wheel rims, as recommended by my LBS. It's great, looks fantastic and it works a treat. But Oh boy! When you want to remove it what an absolute sod! When you peel it off the thick sticky adhesive is left behind. I have tried a proprietary "Sticky Stuff Remover" that...

www.emtbforums.com

Yep, I’ll admit it is a bugger to get off

 

[Ian222]

Wow some great responses. I have taken the tyre off and I have 2 punctures. No evidence of thorns etc just holes from
Stones. I will patch them up with mushroom patch’s and try and get them back inflated.

 

[steve_sordy]

Wow some great responses. I have taken the tyre off and I have 2 punctures. No evidence of thorns etc just holes from
Stones. I will patch them up with mushroom patch’s and try and get them back inflated.

As long as you clean the inside of the tyre well in the area of the patch, to allow good adhesion, you should have zero problems re-inflating. In fact it should be easier than when the tyres were new.

 

[Ian222]

How long would you let the vulcanising glue set? I left it about an hour and tried pumping them up and get a leak from the puncture repair although they seemed a good fix.