Trek Fuel EXe 500wh Battery Project

[shure2]

? charger charges full battery pack, not single cell.
They are serial and parallel connected.
Theoretically there is enough power to charge one cell with 2A (which is around .6C)

Serial doesn't matter, parallel does. So 2 groups of parallel means 2A per cell, which is still above the manufacturers rating

 

[MamboN5]

Ok, well as that seems rather apt ..

I'm just drinking some beer .. and one tasted completely different ..

I then noticed it was completely different .. I thought they had a brewing problem, but it seems they have a packing problem.

Ok, lets try ..

Like @MamboN5 you're sitting on the beach surrounded by beautiful women and handsome guys - obviously you're easily the most handsome so you're not threatened or even worried in the slightest by anyone else there. This is a typical evening for anyone Spanish before heading inside to eat Paelle and work on your battery experiment.

At this point I'm rather unreasonably assuming @MamboN5 is a man and not a lady. However if MB5 is a lady, 95% of men of the forum will be booking flights to Spain to meet the wise battery lady with the Sexy Trek bike.

So lets say you have a 12 pack of beer .. We won't say San Miguel, because that's crap- but if it's hot and you're sweating like hell, it probably tastes ok .. ;-)

Now picture that 4 of those beers are the San Miguel Extra Strong (ok, I contradicted myself) .

You're sitting with 2 friends and dish out the beers, one of your friends ends up way more happy than everyone else and sooner ... This is beer inbalance.

You need to even things out so everyone gets beer charged at the same rate, or someone will fall over before the others and that's when the party stops.

Therefore, you need to go back to the off licence/beer shop/man with a donkey on the beach and get the same beer, or open all the beers and pour them in a tub and mix them all up ..

Sorry, that's all I can do on short notice, my food needs taking out of the oven.

A check of the voltage of the series has been made and they are well balanced, as already mentioned above, the problem is that the bike does not show the percentage of autonomy according to the real voltage, it does so according to a calculation, this would not be a problem if At 10% it will not cut the assistance at 110% because once it reaches 1% it stays that way until the battery runs out, at this time it does so due to voltage.

 

[MamboN5]

There is another test that we can do to clear up doubts, it is to calculate from when the bike reaches 1% how much you can travel until the bike stops.

 

[Mteam]

There is another test that we can do to clear up doubts, it is to calculate from when the bike reaches 1% how much you can travel until the bike stops.

This thread made me think that the BMS on the standard battery might need to be run down to absolute 0% in order to get an accurate calibration of the capacity of the battery, and I couldnt actually remember if I had ever taken mine down to actual 0%, I know I've been down to 1% before, but I didnt think I had ever run it down all the way to zero. So my thinking was that if I hadnt ever run it down to zero, then it might be miscalibrated and I might be missing out on a few percent of usable battery.

So on Saturday I went for a ride, and watched the battery tick down , it went down from 10% to 1% quite steadily, but once at 1% it stayed there for about 4 times longer than it had taken to drop from 2% to 1% (see graph from garmin connect below)..

But what I dont know if whether by doing this, the BMS has now calibrated itself so I get an extra 4% before the 10% cutout occurs, or whether I will always just get a bit longer at 1% .

 

[MamboN5]

This thread made me think that the BMS on the standard battery might need to be run down to absolute 0% in order to get an accurate calibration of the capacity of the battery, and I couldnt actually remember if I had ever taken mine down to actual 0%, I know I've been down to 1% before, but I didnt think I had ever run it down all the way to zero. So my thinking was that if I hadnt ever run it down to zero, then it might be miscalibrated and I might be missing out on a few percent of usable battery.

So on Saturday I went for a ride, and watched the battery tick down , it went down from 10% to 1% quite steadily, but once at 1% it stayed there for about 4 times longer than it had taken to drop from 2% to 1% (see graph from garmin connect below)..

Pero lo que no sé si al hacer esto, el BMS ahora se ha calibrado a sí mismo, por lo que obtengo un 4 % adicional antes de que se produzca el corte del 10 %, o si siempre tendré un poco más de tiempo al 1 %.

View attachment 104697

Perfect you have anticipated.
Exactly what you propose is what must be investigated, I am also afraid that that 4% more that you have taken varies a lot depending on the type of route and assistance that you have done.

How do you get that graph that you have posted interests me a lot.

 

[Mteam]

How do you get that graph that you have posted interests me a lot.

if you have garmin watch (or bike computer - and I guess other brands will work too, but I have a garmin fenix 6 watch), you pair it up to the TQ display ANT+ sensors, the bike transmits the following data:-

- Ebike battery level
- rider power
- cadence
- speed
- assist mode

Then on the watch (or bike computer) , when you ride you record the activity on the watch, and when you sync the activity into garmin connect, you can view the data from the bike, the screenshots below shows some data from a ride I did last night. Below shows battery level and assist mode, and the other shot shows rider power and elevation, but you can customise the data that is shown, so you could have rider power + cadence on the same graph for example

 

[Psythepie]

@Mteam Did you have to download a widget or data field to get this? I have a Fenix 5 & it doesn't by default have an e-bike field in it's list of activities.

 

[Mteam]

@Mteam Did you have to download a widget or data field to get this? I have a Fenix 5 & it doesn't by default have an e-bike field in it's list of activities.

no I didnt need to download or install any special data fields etc, its all just standard in the watch, but confusingly the ebike battery level is not listed under an ebike section, it can be found within the "GEARS" set of data fields along with info about DI2 gears etc, its called eBike Battery , also in there is eBike Range

 

[Psythepie]

@Mteam Thanks

 

[MamboN5]

This thread made me think that the BMS on the standard battery might need to be run down to absolute 0% in order to get an accurate calibration of the capacity of the battery, and I couldnt actually remember if I had ever taken mine down to actual 0%, I know I've been down to 1% before, but I didnt think I had ever run it down all the way to zero. So my thinking was that if I hadnt ever run it down to zero, then it might be miscalibrated and I might be missing out on a few percent of usable battery.

So on Saturday I went for a ride, and watched the battery tick down , it went down from 10% to 1% quite steadily, but once at 1% it stayed there for about 4 times longer than it had taken to drop from 2% to 1% (see graph from garmin connect below)..

But what I dont know if whether by doing this, the BMS has now calibrated itself so I get an extra 4% before the 10% cutout occurs, or whether I will always just get a bit longer at 1% .

View attachment 104697

It would be interesting to open a ticket, if possible, to a TQ SAT and ask how it exactly calculates the autonomy and if the BMS can be restarted, what happens is that with my English from Google translate it makes me a bit lazy, and if it asks me My battery data will not be consistent because it is modified.

 

[Zimmerframe]

wait. What happened to the beautiful ladies? Especially the ones coming from Brazil trying to find a man in Europe?

You ruined it for the rest of us ... you only have to look on the internet at the popular "ladies seeking husbands" sites, for example :

Weddit : "Bambam put me off finding any man in Europe"

Tripupadvisor : "Bambam bent over backwards for me constantly, but I wasn't going anywhere near his leaning tower of Pisa"

Twitther : "Bambam, The only man I've met who even had mirrors in his kitchen cupboards"

SomeYahoo : "Bambam ! He promised to make my dreams come true, as long as my dreams were about cleaning his bikes"

Prickipedia : "Bumbum ?! He invited me over for a romantic dinner, then expected me to cook - after I'd gone shopping"

Instawham : "Bam Bam Bam ... and it was over, he said we could maybe do it together next time"

Netchix : "Bambam :-O - I'd give him 5 Stars ! But only if it was out of 1000"

Manhamster : "Bamman - Charming, Attractive, Captivating .. and an utter b4stard. Took me on holiday with a one way ticket"

Cmenmen : "Headline news ladies, avoid Europe, Bambibambi is like Boris with a cool haircut, less lies, but he's still only interesting in shagging you and telling everyone how brilliant he was"

Duckduckrun : "I'm sure one day Bambam will find his perfect partner, but until cloning has advanced and he accepts he'll be happier with a man - it isn't going to happen"

Playpal : "European men ?! BlamBlam took me on a tour of Europe ! Europe consists of roads linking hills together that sweaty dirty people cycle down, beer is the only liquid available. We did have satellite internet though, so at least in the evenings we could watch videos of people cycling down hills"

Amanazon : "I found BamBam in whorehouse deals, returned, it said 'quality acceptable', fortunately I had 30 days to send him back"

 

[shure2]

There is another test that we can do to clear up doubts, it is to calculate from when the bike reaches 1% how much you can travel until the bike stops.

I don't believe the bike calculates range with a pre-defined Ah usage, at least not the way that I am extending the battery range.

For instance, I recently did the same trip (36km) with and without my modification. Mode 3, fully cranked for power assist.

Without the modification I had 3% remaining
With the modification I had 34% remaining

However, I do wonder whether we are running the same firmware, there could have been a change?

 

[MamboN5]

I don't believe the bike calculates range with a pre-defined Ah usage, at least not the way that I am extending the battery range.

For instance, I recently did the same trip (36km) with and without my modification.

Without the modification I had 3% remaining
With the modification I had 34% remaining

However, I do wonder whether we are running the same firmware, there could have been a change?

what modification did you make?

 

[shure2]

what modification did you make?

Different way to yours. I've spent a few months testing and refining the solution and intend to sell it. I'll release a few more details next week.

 

[Mteam]

I don't believe the bike calculates range with a pre-defined Ah usage, at least not the way that I am extending the battery range.

For instance, I recently did the same trip (36km) with and without my modification. Mode 3, fully cranked for power assist.

Without the modification I had 3% remaining
With the modification I had 34% remaining

However, I do wonder whether we are running the same firmware, there could have been a change?

It wouldn't surprise me if they started with using an assumed ah value in the early firmwares,but then realised this could cause issues and changed to a voltage based method in the more recent firmware.

 

[shure2]

It wouldn't surprise me if they started with using an assumed ah value in the early firmwares,but then realised this could cause issues and changed to a voltage based method in the more recent firmware.

Yes that makes sense. I haven't had my firmware updated and bought the bike in October. I'm not sure if there is a way for the user to check the firmware we have?

 

[Mteam]

Yes that makes sense. I haven't had my firmware updated and bought the bike in October. I'm not sure if there is a way for the user to check the firmware we have?

No ,according to Roman at TQ the only way to check firmware versions is with the dealer service tool,but he did imply they were looking to expose this info in the app.

 

[MamboN5]

No me sorprendería si comenzaran usando un valor ah asumido en los primeros firmwares, pero luego se dieron cuenta de que esto podría causar problemas y cambiaron a un método basado en voltaje en el firmware más reciente.

my bike was connected to the TQ dongle last week and the updates are up to date. The operation is as described above, when I reach 1% I have between 20% and 30% autonomy.

 

[Mteam]

my bike was connected to the TQ dongle last week and the updates are up to date. The operation is as described above, when I reach 1% I have between 20% and 30% autonomy.

Ah right, it's not that then.

I've been trying to get hold of the dealer service dongle just so I can update my own firmware without having to go to a dealer. The dongle isnt expensive at about £130 , but unsurprisingly you can't buy it on the open market. It is listed as an item on the websites of various trek dealers,but they won't sell you one.

 

[MamboN5]

The problem is not getting one, I think my distributor would sell it to me, the problem is that it works by connecting to a TQ server with a registered user.

 

[MamboN5]

Different way to yours. I've spent a few months testing and refining the solution and intend to sell it. I'll release a few more details next week.

Could you give me a clue how you did it? Even if it's private I'm very curious.

 

[MamboN5]

I have a report of all the updates of each component and its installation date.

 

[four_seven]

I need a little collaboration, someone can measure the voltage that the bike gives through the charging port at 100% and 0%, I am doing autonomy tests and there is voltage data on the new battery that does not fit.
The voltage is measured with a tester with the bike on.

Thanks

A bit late but I just ran my battery down to 0% for the first time (been through a few charge cycles, I’ve done about 900km on it) and I get the following (4.57V)

Let me know if you want more info, I’ll charge it back up in a couple of hours

 

[MamboN5]

A bit late but I just ran my battery down to 0% for the first time (been through a few charge cycles, I’ve done about 900km on it) and I get the following (4.57V)

Let me know if you want more info, I’ll charge it back up in a couple of hours

View attachment 105086

ok thank you very much, more voltage taps are not necessary, I am quite clear about what is happening.

 

[Pakere]

It would be interesting to open a ticket, if possible, to a TQ SAT and ask how it exactly calculates the autonomy and if the BMS can be restarted, what happens is that with my English from Google translate it makes me a bit lazy, and if it asks me My battery data will not be consistent because it is modified.

I got nothing meaningful from TQ:

'-------------------
No, the BMS values cannot be reset, and are not necessary because they are not stored for a long time, but the values are updated according to the actual values, the range display can take up to 1 km to be updated.

Of course, the range depends on various factors: What kind of terrain are you riding in, what level of assistance do you use, how much total weight do you bring with you? But external conditions such as temperature also have an influence. Our software takes these and many other factors into account and calculates the remaining range based on your rider profile.

Software Updates für E-Bikes mit TQ-HPR50

Here you will find the latest software versions.

We are still working on the development of our TQ-eBike app, with which consumers can read out the software statuses at random and update them accordingly.
-------------------

 

[MamboN5]

Thanks for the info.
It seems that fighting that algorithm is going to be impossible.
With the type of trip that I usually do 20/30 km 1000/1500 of unevenness, the data shows +20% autonomy at full power +20% autonomy in a latent way, only usable with the limitation of 110% assistance.
The algorithm incorrectly calculates that you have 10% left when you actually have 20% left.
Surely in trips with a proportion of more kilometers and less unevenness the percentages improve, but it is not a type of trip that I do, so I abandon the project.
The NLS delimiter has been tested to see how it affects the calculation of the algorithm, it affects negatively by understanding the bike that you are doing fewer kilometers than the real ones, surely the use of a mullet system benefits the calculation of the algorithm.
I'm going to disassemble the prototype to reassemble the original battery and sell the bike, if anyone is interested in it before I disassemble it, tell me something by PM. The exchange for an original battery or the amount that it is worth is contemplated so that I can buy one and deliver it with the bike.
Thanks for all the help received, it has been an exciting project that would not have been possible without you.

 

[Pakere]

Different way to yours. I've spent a few months testing and refining the solution and intend to sell it. I'll release a few more details next week.

Hello,

Do you have any details to share?
I'm curious, also we could give you instant feedback about your project.

 

[shure2]

Hello,

Do you have any details to share?
I'm curious, also we could give you instant feedback about your project.

It's called the eXTenderMod. It is an adapter that allows an Ego 2.5Ah battery to securely and safely mount to the frame. The battery is easily removed to be charged separately, and connects to the charging socket. It drains with the main battery, and in testing gives around 34-38% extra range (140Wh). It possibly gives close to as much as the TQ Range Extender due to the way it works, but I don't have a TQ Range Extender to test.

It is wider and heavier than the TQ Range Extender (1020g vs 1650g), but all up the system will cost around half as much. There are more advantages and disadvantages which I'll release by 8th Feb (sorry taking an extra day to test).

I have been refining and testing this system for months, and using the Ego batteries in other applications for years, but I have a few more isolated tests to perform before I release more details.

 

[prometeo72]

It's called the eXTenderMod. It is an adapter that allows an Ego 2.5Ah battery to securely and safely mount to the frame. The battery is easily removed to be charged separately, and connects to the charging socket. It drains with the main battery, and in testing gives around 34-38% extra range (140Wh). It possibly gives close to as much as the TQ Range Extender due to the way it works, but I don't have a TQ Range Extender to test.

It is wider and heavier than the TQ Range Extender (1020g vs 1650g), but all up the system will cost around half as much. There are more advantages and disadvantages which I'll release by 7th Feb.

I have been refining and testing this system for months, and using the Ego batteries in other applications for years, but I have a few more isolated tests to perform before I release more details.

Thanks for the update. It will be interesting to read your next update.
In particular it will be interesting to know:
-if it will be compatible with all the batteries of the ego series (bigger models with same voltage and contact system) of course I don't know if the bigger one fit into the frame triangle or will impact with the legs of the rider;
-how does it cope with the original battery's BMS;
-how many km of test you where able to do.
Looking forward for your update.

 

[shure2]

Thanks for the update. It will be interesting to read your next update.
In particular it will be interesting to know:
-if it will be compatible with all the batteries of the ego series (bigger models with same voltage and contact system) of course I don't know if the bigger one fit into the frame triangle or will impact with the legs of the rider;
-how does it cope with the original battery's BMS;
-how many km of test you where able to do.
Looking forward for your update.

Yes other Ego batteries will work but if you have a 9.7 or above the piggyback resoviour limits the size available to only a 2.5Ah. Still I haven't tried a 5.0Ah with my 9.5 but I think with a different mounting plate it could work. Otherwise a cable from a backpack or it mounted somewhere else would work, but obviously less streamlined.

I've tested it for couple hundred km, including a couple of bike parks with jumps.

As long as both batteries are fully charged (essentially the same or similar voltage) it works perfectly well. If the voltage is slightly off the TQ BMS produces an error and cuts power to protect the system, but I'm also testing a 5a fuse which serves as a backup to that. This is just for when people don't use the system correctly though.