This can’t be right...... can it ?

[E_S_Blofeld]

Hi folks. I’ll get to the point.

Rode 18 miles today on my Decoy Pro 29.
2 hour ride.
Started ride with full battery.
Range stated 65 miles in Eco.
Ride was all bridal paths / off road.
Ground generally quite firm as it’s drying out a bit now.
Some light mud and some sandy tracks.
Weather was dry and approx 6 degrees.
2287ft elevation gain (697m)
Mainly rode in Eco (70%), Trail (20%), Boost (20%).
Got 100yds from home ...... and battery hit 0%

So my question is ‘given the above, is this adequate range from a 100% charged 540wh YT battery’

Thoughts and advice appreciated ?

 

[Waynetta]

Crikey that’s a pretty poor range. Either the battery wasn’t fully charged and the range estimate Was fooled by something or your battery is knackered... unless you weigh 30 stone and rode into a strong headwind

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

Crikey that’s a pretty poor range. Either the battery wasn’t fully charged and the range estimate Was fooled by something or your battery is knackered... unless you weigh 30 stone and rode into a strong headwind

I was worried that might be the response. I borrowed a Cube hard tail before buying this bike. Did 50km one day and it still 40% battery of a 500wh battery. The bikes only 9 months old. I’ll call / email YT and see what they say. Wish me luck. Let’s hope the UK Mill can help.

 

[Waynetta]

I was worried that might be the response. I borrowed a Cube hard tail before buying this bike. Did 50km one day and it still 40% battery of a 500wh battery. The bikes only 9 months old. I’ll call / email YT and see what they say. Wish me luck. Let’s hope the UK Mill can help.

Give it a really good full charge or at least until the charger shows it’s turned off. Then go out again on a similar route and see what happens. Good luck.

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

Give it a really good full charge or at least until the charger shows it’s turned off. Then go out again on a similar route and see what happens. Good luck.

Thanks. Will try that next week.

 

[Josey Wales]

(70+20+20%.?)

You could check the battery condition with STUnlocker.
That ride sounds like 2 maybe 3 bars on my battery; 2019 Decoy.

Have you changed any of the presets or is it factory?

 

[Mikerb]

You did say 70% eco 20% trial 20% turbo....................which = 110%!
20% of the ride in turbo plus cold temps could well have used most of that battery.

 

[#lazy]

I did a holmbury hill ride this morning and covered just over 25 miles , in eco/trail mostly and turbo just up the steep bits . Took 3hrs with a coffee and cake stop at the delicatessen farm shack and that with a kenevo 500w ! A mate was a 600ish W mondraker and weighs a lot more than me and his battery died at the peaslake cafe , a mile uphill with no assist ??

 

[Sapientiea]

It is is impossible to say if this is normal. I have tried 'everything out' to see impact on battery consumption!
I weigh 100kg naked. My wife 60kg. After same ride (let's say +800hm) I have maybe 20-40% left and she will have 10-15% more than me. I am much stronger and can keep a good cadence. My wife needs more support and thus uses more battery. Granted the bike weighs relatively a lot compared to her weight. I found that if you really push uphill (faster) then you as rider will input less power, thus the motor does more-which equals more battery consumption.

I found out that it saves battery the most if you (in stock mode, Shimano E8000):
- on uphill pump tires up a bit more. Rear tire more. this will depend on which type of road/trail you are riding
- Climb as you were on an 'analogue' bike. So slow and steady.
- Stay around 75-85 cadence for optimal power support. At lower cadence the motor support power will be less and thus also saves energy, but not necessarily your legs.
- Obviously stay in Eco as the power output will always be limited sub maximum. In Trail is also possible, but I generally only use it when the uphill gets steep and technical. On fireraods and easy trail stay in eco.
- in Eco- even stop and go actions require more battery as the motor will push out ~500w for a short moment. (maybe changed in firmware?). So steady climbing.
- Stay away from Boost if range is what you are looking for.
-in cold temperatures make sure you cover your battery
- Never ever use Boost if you are down to 2 bars if your plan is to ride back with assistance
-have fun

Of course you could get faster rolling tires, take less weight with you . We have done about +1500hm as a maximim with 10% battery left. Whole ride in eco, fairly easy uphills. Done flat rides with 120km range, but no worthy height meters and have 10% battery left.

You will learn what works and when to go easy if you want to make range.

 

[Pabs]

Where you use boost in your battery in important as mentioned. I've found that in boost and with range on the display, the battery will die with 4-2 mile range on the display when being pedalled hard. Its a more trustworthy readout in the lower power modes.

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

Thanks guys for constructive replies and helpful advice above guys. Very much appreciated.

Let’s get the ‘hilarious’ maths / typo error over with, ride was Eco (70%), Trail (20%), Boost (10%).

So charged the battery as per the manual and advice above yesterday. Kept the battery inside over night too to see if temp was the issue. Did another ride today, 25 miles, roughly same route / terrain. Majority in Eco and little bit of Trail (hardly touched Boost at all). Elevation gain was 1720ft (524m). Temp was 0 degrees. Battery went flat with 2 miles to go! Plus had the indignity of some smug tool on an acoustic bike grinning as I rode past with a flat battery ??‍.

Never had this issue in the past. I’m worried the battery has issues. 540wh battery range has to be more than 25 miles, surely? I’ve had more out of it last year pre Winter. I don’t think I’m doing anything on the bike / rides that should run the battery down this quickly. Mate on a Levo had circa 40-50% left after Fridays ride, and my battery was dead when we got back (I appreciate they have bigger batteries).

So what’s the general consensus. Do you guys think I have a battery issue worth raising with YT given my two recent rides?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Let’s get the ‘hilarious’ maths / typo error over with, ride was Eco (70%), Trail (20%), Boost (10%).

It looks to me like if your incorrect maths was right and you had a 110% battery instead of a crappy old 100% battery, that last 2 miles would have nicely fit into your 25 miles.

Range is a very individual thing. If I ride like a maniac I can flatten in 10km's/800m-1000m. If I go more steady I can maybe eek out 26km/1000m.

If ride like miss daisy I can get 50km's. Climbing/speed/rider weight/tyre type will have the largest direct impacts on your range.

From what you're saying, it does sound like your battery has a cell or two down which is limiting your range just based on the height you've climbed. But if you read the Bullet thread there's people getting less range than you on similar sized batteries who might just ride harder.

It's a really difficult thing to prove/analyse with the tools we have available at the moment.

It's not helped by YT having a none standard battery, so you can't check it's actual "health". If you could take it to the new "mill" presumably they have the facilities to check batteries on site.

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

It looks to me like if your incorrect maths was right and you had a 110% battery instead of a crappy old 100% battery, that last 2 miles would have nicely fit into your 25 miles.

Range is a very individual thing. If I ride like a maniac I can flatten in 10km's/800m-1000m. If I go more steady I can maybe eek out 26km/1000m.

If ride like miss daisy I can get 50km's. Climbing/speed/rider weight/tyre type will have the largest direct impacts on your range.

From what you're saying, it does sound like your battery has a cell or two down which is limiting your range just based on the height you've climbed. But if you read the Bullet thread there's people getting less range than you on similar sized batteries who might just ride harder.

It's a really difficult thing to prove/analyse with the tools we have available at the moment.

It's not helped by YT having a none standard battery, so you can't check it's actual "health". If you could take it to the new "mill" presumably they have the facilities to check batteries on site.

I agree there are so many factors that impact range it’s hard to say 100%. I borrowed at YT from the Mill before buying this bike and it’s battery performed much better. It doesn’t seem right to me. A trip to YT (down the road from) will be worthwhile. The guys there have always been very helpful in the past. As you say they should have the kit to check battery condition etc. I think from what’s been said above it warrants a bit of investigation by them. Once I can, I’ll pop down and post their response here. Thanks for help and advice folks. Appreciated ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I borrowed at YT from the Mill before buying this bike and it’s battery performed much better. It doesn’t seem right to me. A trip to YT (down the road from) will be worthwhile.

This is where it's even more tricky .. When you first ride a bike you don't really take advantage of it's full potential. Only when you've had it a while do you find yourself pedalling flat out over things you thought were impossible. Average speed increases exponentially .. and sadly, battery usage with it.

Will be interesting to see what they say, also if they suggest any ways people can check.

 

[Waynetta]

If the majority of your ride was in eco as you say and with the amount of ascent on your second ride I’d be pretty disappointed if I couldn’t ride further on a full charge. Seems more than likely (in my opinion) your battery isn’t in great condition.

 

[Jeffw]

If this helps....2 very different rides on my Cube Stereo 160 in the last few days
Ride 1
40 miles. Mainly singletrack/woods and some road, mainly ascending the whole time on the outward journey
I would say 90% ECO, 5% Tour and 5% EMTB. No Turbo
Occasionally on a long stretch on the way back, battery switched off
2 out of 5 bars left when i got home

Ride 2
16 miles
70% Tour, 25% EMTB, 5% Boost
2 bars left when returning

So less than half the distance, but modes that use more battery

In summary, learning to run in ECO wherever possible, to extend the miles i do

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

If this helps....2 very different rides on my Cube Stereo 160 in the last few days
Ride 1
40 miles. Mainly singletrack/woods and some road, mainly ascending the whole time on the outward journey
I would say 90% ECO, 5% Tour and 5% EMTB. No Turbo
Occasionally on a long stretch on the way back, battery switched off
2 out of 5 bars left when i got home

Ride 2
16 miles
70% Tour, 25% EMTB, 5% Boost
2 bars left when returning

So less than half the distance, but modes that use more battery

In summary, learning to run in ECO wherever possible, to extend the miles I do

Thanks. All info like that is helpful to establish an idea of battery range. I appreciate you're on a Bosch so hard to compare, also what Wh is your battery?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Thanks. All info like that is helpful to establish an idea of battery range. I appreciate you're on a Bosch so hard to compare, also what Wh is your battery?

This might sound mad. But yesterday I did a 10km ride with the power off, just as part of my irregular reminder of how horrible it is and to bring me back in line with pushing harder in the lower assist modes. Range today on a similar setup was noticeably higher than normal just from adjusting from yesterday - so you could also give this a go in case it's down to your subconscious riding the optimum assist (I used to do this on the E8000).

 

[Jeffw]

625

 

[Sapientiea]

Thanks guys for constructive replies and helpful advice above guys. Very much appreciated.

Let’s get the ‘hilarious’ maths / typo error over with, ride was Eco (70%), Trail (20%), Boost (10%).

So charged the battery as per the manual and advice above yesterday. Kept the battery inside over night too to see if temp was the issue. Did another ride today, 25 miles, roughly same route / terrain. Majority in Eco and little bit of Trail (hardly touched Boost at all). Elevation gain was 1720ft (524m). Temp was 0 degrees. Battery went flat with 2 miles to go! Plus had the indignity of some smug tool on an acoustic bike grinning as I rode past with a flat battery ??‍.

Never had this issue in the past. I’m worried the battery has issues. 540wh battery range has to be more than 25 miles, surely? I’ve had more out of it last year pre Winter. I don’t think I’m doing anything on the bike / rides that should run the battery down this quickly. Mate on a Levo had circa 40-50% left after Fridays ride, and my battery was dead when we got back (I appreciate they have bigger batteries).

So what’s the general consensus. Do you guys think I have a battery issue worth raising with YT given my two recent rides?

Hi, on top of the other comments;
- let's assume there is nothing wrong with the bike ( rubbing tire, bad hub, motor drag etc.). Have a quick check!
- Check your Eco, Trail, Boost settings are actually stock
- Charging you battery at <5 degrees is not that efficient and should be avoided as well as storing the battery at those temperatures. Just take it inside!
- Discharging batteries, including the YT battery, in cold temperatures drains it more fast due to slow(er) electron flow. Thus less range!
- I have a Basil Integrated battery cover to protect against cold and it works great. Although I haven't tried anything far below 0 degrees. You will have to make some cuts in the Velcro to allow the fit on the Decoy. Burn/melt the loose threads with a small flame or heat gun !

Rang of 525hm is on low side if you rode in stock Eco mode for sure. I have posted my rides in other threads about range and honestly a 1000hm with 30-40km ride should be well within the range of the battery (in Eco). (Share Your Decoy Range Anecdotes - EMTB Forums)

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

Hi, on top of the other comments;
- let's assume there is nothing wrong with the bike ( rubbing tire, bad hub, motor drag etc.). Have a quick check!
- Check your Eco, Trail, Boost settings are actually stock
- Charging you battery at <5 degrees is not that efficient and should be avoided as well as storing the battery at those temperatures. Just take it inside!
- Discharging batteries, including the YT battery, in cold temperatures drains it more fast due to slow(er) electron flow. Thus less range!
- I have a Basil Integrated battery cover to protect against cold and it works great. Although I haven't tried anything far below 0 degrees. You will have to make some cuts in the Velcro to allow the fit on the Decoy. Burn/melt the loose threads with a small flame or heat gun !

Rang of 525hm is on low side if you rode in stock Eco mode for sure. I have posted my rides in other threads about range and honestly a 1000hm with 30-40km ride should be well within the range of the battery (in Eco). (Share Your Decoy Range Anecdotes - EMTB Forums)

Thanks for that. What do you mean by ‘hm’

 

[Zimmerframe]

Thanks for that. What do you mean by ‘hm’

I think he means Height Meters .. or D+ in French ..

So you only got 525m height gained, where as you'd expect at least 800 - though with caveats - ie, not 800m climbed and 100km travelled.

 

[Mikerb]

I have never really understood why people quote altitude gain when referring to battery range. It is largely meaningless. If the ride involved climbing 500+ meters over a 20km ride, that is a lot different to, for example, a ride with 2 severe inclines of the same total but each climb a much shorter distance. Also, a circular ride with 500m altitude gain would also have 500m of downhill!!

500m of altitude gain on a fireroad or tarmac is vastly different to 500m climb on rocky singletrack!!

 

[Zimmerframe]

I have never really understood why people quote altitude gain when referring to battery range. It is largely meaningless.

It's pretty simple really ..

The energy required to push a 100kg ball along a flat surface is considerably less than the energy required to push the same ball up an incline due to having to overcome gravity.

The incline is not then cancelled out by the descent because it's not a perpetual motion machine. The height still has to be gained and the energy used which is not the same as the energy saved when descending in comparison to riding on the flat.

I can see you're going to argue that, so let's give you an example.

If I said to you .. Mike, Today I want you to ride 100km's on a road bike and it will be perfectly flat .. But then tomorrow I want you to ride 100 km's on the same bike, starting and finishing in the same place - but you'll ride over snowdon twice via a different route - which one do you think will be the easiest ?

By your logic, they will both be the same.

Off you go.

 

[Mikerb]

No...you misunderstand what I was saying. Of course a ride with more climbing will use more battery, but what I was saying was that is is not quantifiable merely by quoting the elevation. Using your same analogy, a ride with a continuous but very gradual incline over an extended distance will probably be easy on the legs and battery....more so if the surface is hard and smooth, less so if it is gnarly, but neither would likely raise a sweat or call for turbo! By the same measure, the total distance covered does not tell you a lot either. There are just far too many variables. Even the wind makes a big difference.
Riding the same course twice or several times when the ground condition and weather conditions are similar is really the only way to make a comparison of battery consumption.
Even quoting the amount of estimated time spent in each motor mode means very little unless the power settings in each mode are known. If like the Levo those settings are configurable with "pedal assist" and "max" settings, does the rider know how much time in each mode was spent without going beyond the pedal assist setting? You can ride in ECO all day but if most of the time you are pushing that mode beyond the pedal assist , you may as well be in trail mode !!

 

[Sapientiea]

No...you misunderstand what I was saying. Of course a ride with more climbing will use more battery, but what I was saying was that is is not quantifiable merely by quoting the elevation.....

First, granted you can have your own opinion.

but,..some of us want to know how our battery consumption compares to others as to ascertain more understanding. For this we only have two easy parameters namely distance and meters ascended. Roughness and physical rider parameters are not easily quantifiable. And it is by far the best to report height meters (+D) and distance traveled. We are not trying to calculate the exact outcome for a ride merely trying to get a grip on expected battery consumption.

 

[lnnaie]

How is this investigation going? Did you figure out the problem?

 

[E_S_Blofeld]

How is this investigation going? Did you figure out the problem?

Not got to the bottom of it yet. I've emailed YT in Germany (don't expect to hear from them any time soon!). Will also try and get in touch with YT UK at The Mill. They generally seem to be much more responsive, but just not sure yet if they are 'open' as such to assist with advice given COVID. Rode at the weekend. The weather was much warmer this weekend (circa 8-10 degrees). Only did 10 easy miles and the battery used less than 20%. I do wonder if the temperature has a lot to do with the poor range on the last two rides mentioned above.

 

[Lee Dove]

Mmm . Turbo up a steep hill really drains the battery. So it depends on the ride profile.

 

[Jessiejames1108]

Hi, on top of the other comments;
- let's assume there is nothing wrong with the bike ( rubbing tire, bad hub, motor drag etc.). Have a quick check!
- Check your Eco, Trail, Boost settings are actually stock
- Charging you battery at <5 degrees is not that efficient and should be avoided as well as storing the battery at those temperatures. Just take it inside!
- Discharging batteries, including the YT battery, in cold temperatures drains it more fast due to slow(er) electron flow. Thus less range!
- I have a Basil Integrated battery cover to protect against cold and it works great. Although I haven't tried anything far below 0 degrees. You will have to make some cuts in the Velcro to allow the fit on the Decoy. Burn/melt the loose threads with a small flame or heat gun !

Rang of 525hm is on low side if you rode in stock Eco mode for sure. I have posted my rides in other threads about range and honestly a 1000hm with 30-40km ride should be well within the range of the battery (in Eco). (Share Your Decoy Range Anecdotes - EMTB Forums)

Which Basil battery cover did you get? Can you post some pictures of how you set it up?