Join the club ?. I just wanted folk to see it from a different perspective that’s all. I don’t think I’ve been successful at that.
Tesla Cybertruck
- Thread starter Zimmerframe
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #62
So traditional carmakers have never hyped their cars...with super expensive tv commercials? Their stock went up too. Not excusing some comments...many comments actually.
That really could take a while to detail but short answer yes & nothing to do with their stock price. For a start being at least 5 years out in front leading the way. The behemoths followed eventually and not very happily.
I’d accept the Gigafactories and charging network are a success. We could go on forever like this though and whilst it’s nice shooting the breeze on this let’s revisit, assuming we’re both around, when something is released?
I think we can maybe all agree it will stand up to space debris better than his red roadster.
I think we can maybe all agree it will stand up to space debris better than his red roadster.
- Thread starter
- #65
Just gonna leave this here...
Tesla overtakes Volkswagen as value hits $100bn
WOW how badly have some of your comments aged
Tesla overtakes Volkswagen as value hits $100bn
WOW how badly have some of your comments aged
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Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
Just gonna leave this here...
Tesla overtakes Volkswagen as value hits $100bn
WOW how badly have some of your comments aged
Wait 5 - 10 years and see if Tesla is still around before comparing. I would also think that VW lost a lot of value with the omissions scandal - will bounce back though.
I completely agree. All it will take is Musk smoking weed on a vlog again it calling a hero a paedo for the stock valuation to plummet. Market caps are not real measures of success.
That cybertruck still makes me laugh, as does the thought people actually put deposits down. Suckers.
Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
@Fivetones - personally I rate companies on how profitable they are. Tesla is a bloody great Ponzi scheme that actually makes something. Show me the balance sheets year to year without using stockholder investment as positive figures. Stocks in any company that can not make a profit after 5 years are junk stocks in my mind.
Have seen idiot investors blow life savings year after year on the 'next big thing'. Sure some make a bundle, but overall most lose.
Also interested in how any eCar will sell once stupid governments stop with all the incentive crap - especially when in a few years people are going to realize their eCar is pretty much worthless. Seeing now a 3 year old eCar is only worth 1/2-2/3 of the trade-in of a similar priced car.
Have seen idiot investors blow life savings year after year on the 'next big thing'. Sure some make a bundle, but overall most lose.
Also interested in how any eCar will sell once stupid governments stop with all the incentive crap - especially when in a few years people are going to realize their eCar is pretty much worthless. Seeing now a 3 year old eCar is only worth 1/2-2/3 of the trade-in of a similar priced car.
frankenbike
Member
At a minimum, Tesla (again) deserves credit for raising the bar and providing alternatives that challenge the mainstream auto makers, which will translate into more, better choices. I absolutely loved my 2016 Nissan Leaf even though it only had a range of 85 miles and can't wait to get an electric AWD truck or van with practical range. A 2020 Tacoma gets 20 mpg! in 2020! that's just downright pathetic bordering on criminal.
Check out VW's up and coming electric microbus and in the same article there is reference to some other truck type electric vehicles in the works: VW's adorable I.D. Buzz hits dealerships in 2022, but we drove it today
Check out VW's up and coming electric microbus and in the same article there is reference to some other truck type electric vehicles in the works: VW's adorable I.D. Buzz hits dealerships in 2022, but we drove it today
Well I disagree. I couldn’t disagree more. TSLA is a volatile share - it’s a volatile world - but pay attention to the mission and market cycles- and believe me you’ll understand that it is nothing like a Ponzi scheme. It is a company that has scaled up better than any other auto manufacturer in history.
Those who have shorted - bet against TSLA - have been the biggest losers.
I actually have more respect for Tesla than my posts might tell you. In many ways treat their stock like a tech company.They have pushed boundaries and forced others in a complacent auto industry to consider a different future. The quoted iD Buzz article above is from nearly 3 years ago. VW still don’t have that released despite their emissions fiasco where you’d think they’d want to atone (and I love VW cars/vans too).
My main issue though is the way the market is allowed to work and how then that is interpreted by naive commentators. Not only does this do a disservice to the real investors but more widely it affects whole economies and every day lives.
As a valid, sustainable car company they still have a long way to go. As ever investors take their chances.
My main issue though is the way the market is allowed to work and how then that is interpreted by naive commentators. Not only does this do a disservice to the real investors but more widely it affects whole economies and every day lives.
As a valid, sustainable car company they still have a long way to go. As ever investors take their chances.
Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
Time will tell. As I said, once people realize how much they are going to lose on electric cars there will be a huge realignment in the marketplace.
Hell, I am seeing it with eMTB already. A 1 year old to 18 month old eMTB is selling for about the same as the equivalent conventional bike. Until battery price, life, range & disposal issues are resolved I believe general acceptance will be a lot lower than it could/should be.
Visited a local wrecker looking for bits to fix my daughters car recently and noticed a bunch of electric cars that appeared unmolested. Was told all of them have borked batteries and the cost of replacing is uneconomical ... society may be sucked in to most anything they purchase being a disposable item, but I doubt they will look at cars that way.
That’s a massive call but I agree another winner.
Currently most countries wanting to transition to EVs have incentives to make people choose an EV today, even though they may be cheaper in the future. If noone chooses an EV, they won't be cheaper in the future of course.
Sure, it's a bit sad seeing the price dropping after you bought a car. But here in Norway you will still benefit from the incentives. Cost of ownership is much lower. So most early adopters have saved money here.
Even though battery life is constantly improving, it hasn't really been a big problem since the transition to lithium-ion. And there are already solutions for disposal and reuse, even in the UK. Used batteries can still be valuable. You can buy used EV batteries that have been repurposed for home storage for instance.
Storage Solutions - Nissan Energy Solar & xStorage | Nissan.co.uk
As for Tesla. There's a war going on here. Remember the headlines about the FBI investigating Tesla? They didn't it was a lie. Have you heard the US authorities are investigating Tesla after a car accelerated on it's own and crashed? They didn't, not yet at least, it was a lie. There was a petition for the govt to investigate, posted by a Tesla short-seller. There's so much crap about Tesla in the media, and there are a lot of people that has a lot to win by Tesla failing. Currently 19,77% of the stocks are short in a $115.5 billion market cap company.
Tesla Shorts Aren’t Dumb but They Are Greedy
I for one think that is sad. The Tesla Mission statement is: "Tesla's mission is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy." Whether you believe them or not, that's what's happening now. Battery prices are dropping significantly as production is scaled up, this wouldn't have happened without the push for EVs. Cost of grid storage is falling, making solar/wind + battery storage more competitive.
Levelized Cost of Energy and Levelized Cost of Storage 2019
And Tesla is a big battery manufacturer, unlike (most) other car companies. Tesla is also collecting extreme ammounts of self driving data, much more than everyone else, combined. Just How Far Ahead Is Tesla In Self-Driving?
So the value of Tesla is much more than just car sales. I've got no idea what the correct value for Tesla is though.
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Thoroughly enjoying the debate on this thread, even if some of the comments are a tad delusional
A few of my opinions:
A CEO of a company could not cause its demise, think Steve Jobs when he was ousted as CEO of Apple, no one person is above the best interests of a company and personally I think Musk is good for Tesla as a master of no publicity is bad publicity and clearly so does Tesla.
The debate about VW share price still suffering from the emissions scandal I will half accept but even at their high in 2015 the shares were only 253.30 EUR and Tesla is now 640 dollars which loosely converts in EUR to 580.24 which is double VW at its best.
Rivian have a cool truck yes but are they doing anything vastly or remotely different from the rest of the electric vehicle market? nope. I also note that Rivian are currently a one model manufacturer with that model yet to launch and they have absolutely zero world wide infrastructure in place for this truck but as a company they are only 6 years younger than Tesla so not doing that well then.
A few of my opinions:
A CEO of a company could not cause its demise, think Steve Jobs when he was ousted as CEO of Apple, no one person is above the best interests of a company and personally I think Musk is good for Tesla as a master of no publicity is bad publicity and clearly so does Tesla.
The debate about VW share price still suffering from the emissions scandal I will half accept but even at their high in 2015 the shares were only 253.30 EUR and Tesla is now 640 dollars which loosely converts in EUR to 580.24 which is double VW at its best.
Rivian have a cool truck yes but are they doing anything vastly or remotely different from the rest of the electric vehicle market? nope. I also note that Rivian are currently a one model manufacturer with that model yet to launch and they have absolutely zero world wide infrastructure in place for this truck but as a company they are only 6 years younger than Tesla so not doing that well then.
Another aspect to this debate. When Tesla routinely deliver 2M vehicles in a quarter (112,000 is the Tesla level) like VW then it’s made the big league.
Musk’s bonus is dependent on figures like that (as well as the nonsense market cap).
What Tesla is, to me, first and foremost a battery company and a fleet for collecting formidable amounts of self driving data on the edge of regulation. This has been pointed out already but this is what could spring board them in future.
Musk’s bonus is dependent on figures like that (as well as the nonsense market cap).
What Tesla is, to me, first and foremost a battery company and a fleet for collecting formidable amounts of self driving data on the edge of regulation. This has been pointed out already but this is what could spring board them in future.
Apple would be dead now if Jobs had not returned. You won’t find any analysis that would disagree with that.
You can relate this to Tesla too. Successful US companies are a mix of charismatic front/sales and an ability to operationally deliver.
As much as Cook gets slated he’s why Apple are huge as operationally no-one can touch them. Jobs did the charisma part.
So, do Tesla have a Cook? The market price is betting they can get on top of this operationally. It remains to be seen.
I am all for a having a sensible discussion and debate but where or what is your argument or point here?
That a 17 year old automotive company that just sells electric cars isn't matching the numbers of a company that mass produces for all price points that is 82 years old?
That a 17 year old automotive company that just sells electric cars isn't matching the numbers of a company that mass produces for all price points that is 82 years old?
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Tesla cars is basically a shop window for their battery technology, that's where the money/value is within the company, along with a side line in the self driving data they are gathering.
I still dont think electric cars are the answer, unless we sort out clean power generation there are just tasing the pollution buck down the line so to speak. Hydrogen seem s a much better solution to me.
I still dont think electric cars are the answer, unless we sort out clean power generation there are just tasing the pollution buck down the line so to speak. Hydrogen seem s a much better solution to me.
Ok let's assume I misunderstood your point so i'll quote what you said...
From this I took that you don't believe Tesla are in the big league as they don't match the numbers moved of VW? and this would suggest you judge the value of stock based purely on the numbers it can move?
To compare the two companies based on market share/numbers moved would be ridiculous for a number of reasons that I'll list below while using VW vs Tesla as the example.
VW was founded in 1937 - Tesla was founded 2003 (this makes Tesla 65 years VW's junior)
Tesla only sell EV - VW sell Petrol, Diesel, Hybrid and EV
Tesla (currently) only cover the premium or 30k+ sector of the market - VW cover all price points
To further explain why you cannot use a company value based purely on stock movement I'll use the VW group as an example...VW group owns the brands listed below and in brackets I have listed just the european new car sales figures for 2019:
VW GROUP - (3,866,779)
VOLKSWAGEN - (1,769,482)
AUDI - (743,042)
ŠKODA - (761,761)
SEAT - (507,149)
PORSCHE - (79,624)
OTHER - (5,721)
They also own BENTLEY, BUGATTI, LAMBORGHINI, DUCATI, VW COMMERCIAL, SCANIA, MAN but I'll ignore those for the minute.
Tesla by comparison sold 367,500 vehicles worldwide, barely 10% of VWs european numbers.
So on your logic that makes VW the most valuable brand in the VW group yes? so do you know who who is the majority shareholder of the VW group?...Porsche...yet they sell the lowest numbers in the VW group (graph below as I know you like these).
Therefore the numbers sold are not the sole reason for a share price and to suggest that until Tesla match VW numbers they're not in the big league is a stupid comment...in my opinion.
PS. I am not offended by your stupidity, I just want to educate you.
From this I took that you don't believe Tesla are in the big league as they don't match the numbers moved of VW? and this would suggest you judge the value of stock based purely on the numbers it can move?
To compare the two companies based on market share/numbers moved would be ridiculous for a number of reasons that I'll list below while using VW vs Tesla as the example.
VW was founded in 1937 - Tesla was founded 2003 (this makes Tesla 65 years VW's junior)
Tesla only sell EV - VW sell Petrol, Diesel, Hybrid and EV
Tesla (currently) only cover the premium or 30k+ sector of the market - VW cover all price points
To further explain why you cannot use a company value based purely on stock movement I'll use the VW group as an example...VW group owns the brands listed below and in brackets I have listed just the european new car sales figures for 2019:
VW GROUP - (3,866,779)
VOLKSWAGEN - (1,769,482)
AUDI - (743,042)
ŠKODA - (761,761)
SEAT - (507,149)
PORSCHE - (79,624)
OTHER - (5,721)
They also own BENTLEY, BUGATTI, LAMBORGHINI, DUCATI, VW COMMERCIAL, SCANIA, MAN but I'll ignore those for the minute.
Tesla by comparison sold 367,500 vehicles worldwide, barely 10% of VWs european numbers.
So on your logic that makes VW the most valuable brand in the VW group yes? so do you know who who is the majority shareholder of the VW group?...Porsche...yet they sell the lowest numbers in the VW group (graph below as I know you like these).
Therefore the numbers sold are not the sole reason for a share price and to suggest that until Tesla match VW numbers they're not in the big league is a stupid comment...in my opinion.
PS. I am not offended by your stupidity, I just want to educate you.
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Tesla is pushing the development of EVs, not just the batteries. They basically solved the Permanent Magnet Synchronus Reluctance Motor issues with torque ripple, thus increasing electric motor efficiency by about 10%. Motor technology from Model 3 helps Tesla boost Model S range 10% - nbiznews
And they basically make the safest cars. So I believe Tesla regard their vehicles as more than just a shop window for battery tech.
Why Tesla's Model 3 received top crash-test safety ratings
FCEVs (hydrogen cars) use between 3 and 4 times more electricity than a BEV (battery electric vehicle). So if electricity production is the problem, then the FCEV is far worse.
Efficiency Compared: Battery-Electric 73%, Hydrogen 22%, ICE 13%
There is lots of research on how green an EV is.
Arguments Against Electric Vehicles Are Running On Empty
The big advantage of the BEV is it's efficiency. Fueleconomy.gov try to illustrate this using MPGe (miles/gallon equivalent), which is the same ammount of energy as 1 usgallon of petrol. 7.8kWh, or whatever. Unfortunately they don't have data for the FCEVs.
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That’s very interesting @knut7. I did some digging and it appears a few others do this too but the Tesla combo seems unique.
I believe it was Sandy Munro that discovered what Tesla had done to their new motor, at least that's where I first heard of it. This motor is pretty impressive, it ramps up instantly, way harder than the Nissan Leaf and BMW i3 motors.
Industry Expert On Tesla's Motors: "They've Got Magic!" | CleanTechnica
Industry Expert On Tesla's Motors: "They've Got Magic!" | CleanTechnica
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