Tampering identification....

[Planemo]

The shape of things to come? Seems Germany is leading the fight against derestriction..:

Bluetooth could help police spot e-bikes hacked for higher speeds

Ernst Brust has been described as one of the most renowned and knowledgeable e-bike experts in Germany and, according to Bike Europe, he has recently been pressing for e-bike motor manufacturers to incorporate Bluetooth interfaces, "to make it easier to identify manipulated motors." Brust was...

ebiketips.road.cc

 

[#lazy]

Ernst Brust might be an expert but also an arse

 

[Mikerb]

It is a fairly naive proposal in my opinion. It suggests Ebike motor suppliers can claim full compliance with EPAC regulations by including a blutooth connections that would enable "enforcement agencies" to check if a motor has been derestricted. So just who are those enforcement agencies? The Police? They are not interested!!
Any serious set of proposals to prevent derestriction would start by making the sales of such devices illegal, but they cannot since the EPAC rules only apply when/if the Ebike is used on public roads/public land.

A far more productive approach would be to ask the question why do so many find the 20kph (mostly Europe) too slow as a max assisted speed. One aspect that is rarely included in discussions on assisted speed, is that whilst there is in theory no overall speed limit, most ebikes hit something of a wall trying to pedal beyond the assistance level due to their weight and (normally) wider slower rolling tyres etc. That situation becomes even more apparent with a full suspension enduro EMTB.
So the guy may be an Ebike expert but he sounds more like a boffin than an experienced Ebike rider to me!!

 

[Zimmerframe]

It does seem somewhat illogical ?

They want to use bluetooth to see the W/KM used - and that will tell them if something is "de-restricted" ?

You're a roadie .. your bike weighs 5.5kg. You weigh 100kg. You're blatting along at 60kph with a smile on your face.

So you're limited to 25kph. You're strong, you're fit on a 22kg bike and you weigh 80kg's - you push on and hit 45kph/50kph.. there's 0 wh/km

You're on a de-restricted bike, in "eco" ... you're old, but fit - you also hit 50 kph, but the w/km is tiny and below the "de-restriction" theory.

Your knees and ankles are knackered from whatever. You're in Turbo, the bikes de-restricted .. you also hit 50kph in the same place. You register as 12w/km .. Nicked mate ...

You're a moron on a throttle assisted converted bike or an MX bike riding through a pedestrian area. You're doing 50 kph and your w/km is high because you're not pedalling .. you probably don't have bluetooth so no one can tell - other than the fact that it's obvious you don't care or think.

For an "expert" this sounds somewhat flawed ? But then you're only an expert until the next expert comes along.

 

[shep]

I heard in china now you get speeding tickets automatically issued and deducted from your bank account through phone trackers and vehicle tracking.

Bikes will be the same for those that use their's with a phone app.

 

[steve_sordy]

I heard in china now you get speeding tickets automatically issued and deducted from your bank account through phone trackers and vehicle tracking.

........

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole of your family and all your friends and other "known associates" also get some sort of penalty. With 600 million AI powered face recognition cameras there would be no escape.

 

[shep]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole of your family and all your friends and other "known associates" also get some sort of penalty. With 600 million AI powered face recognition cameras there would be no escape.

It definitely sounds a bad place to live at the moment.
Literally everything is automated

 

[steve_sordy]

It definitely sounds a bad place to live at the moment.
Literally everything is automated

I have read that every citizen has a social score. Their score is added to by doing good works, getting good qualifications etc. The score is reduced by a variety of transgressions: littering, being a noisy neighbour, parking tickets, speeding, having a religion other than the communist party........... The thing is that citizens with good scores get the job they wanted, their kids get to go to good schools, planning permissions get approved, lower interest rates on their loans and so forth. Citizens with poor scores just don't.

It sounds awful, really awful. But wouldn't it sort out the idle good for nothing scroats that feed off society? Or would it just drive them underground and force them to make a dishonest living on the edges of society? Hmmm, I sure hope that system is never implemented here!

 

[aegidius]

This is probably the only place where the vehicle is restricted by law and not the users' behaviour.
Why do they not just book people exceeding the speed limit? In a car if I did that I'd expect to be booked. Here in Australia we are stuck with 25km/h because we imported the EU standard, and we don't even have s-pedelecs.

 

[shep]

I have read that every citizen has a social score. Their score is added to by doing good works, getting good qualifications etc. The score is reduced by a variety of transgressions: littering, being a noisy neighbour, parking tickets, speeding, having a religion other than the communist party........... The thing is that citizens with good scores get the job they wanted, their kids get to go to good schools, planning permissions get approved, lower interest rates on their loans and so forth. Citizens with poor scores just don't.

It sounds awful, really awful. But wouldn't it sort out the idle good for nothing scroats that feed off society? Or would it just drive them underground and force them to make a dishonest living on the edges of society? Hmmm, I sure hope that system is never implemented here!

Well that's a big can of worms.
There certainly needs to be some sort of regulations on ebikes .
Maybe take all the cars off the scroats and layabouts, ban benefits and force them to only be allowed to use restricted ebikes for transport to and from work .
Work would be assigned to them instead of benefits and the cycle provided.

Get em all moving and working ... Then fine them for speeding

 

[Tribey]

This is probably the only place where the vehicle is restricted by law and not the users' behaviour.
Why do they not just book people exceeding the speed limit? In a car if I did that I'd expect to be booked. Here in Australia we are stuck with 25km/h because we imported the EU standard, and we don't even have s-pedelecs.

Because cycles are not required by UK law to have a Speedo.

 

[shep]

Because cycles are not required by UK law to have a Speedo.

Nope. Don't have to wear a helmet either which makes it easier to deal with the mong's that ride at night with no lights ....

 

[steve_sordy]

....................
There certainly needs to be some sort of regulations on ebikes .
........................

I believe that the relevant laws already exist, they just need enforcing.

 

[Sgarth42]

This is the part of the statement where they talk bolax. Deristricting EMTB's can also add increased loads for motors and batteries.
.... Yet it's the same motor & battery etc worldwide. Just Europe ridiculously restricted to 15.5mph ( I'd be totally happy at 20mph) where as other parts of the world allow assistance levels to higher speed, fully warrantied and supported by the manufacturer. I firmly believe most people wouldn't even bother with derestricting at 20mph level of assistance.

 

[shep]

I'd be happy if they just policed Wales however do think that delivery bikes should pay some sort of insurance etc as they are being used for financial gain.

 

[Tetley]

This is the part of the statement where they talk bolax. Deristricting EMTB's can also add increased loads for motors and batteries.
.... Yet it's the same motor & battery etc worldwide. Just Europe ridiculously restricted to 15.5mph ( I'd be totally happy at 20mph) where as other parts of the world allow assistance levels to higher speed, fully warrantied and supported by the manufacturer. I firmly believe most people wouldn't even bother with derestricting at 20mph level of assistance.

Exactly that! Climbing a hill below 15.5mph in turbo mode puts the maximum strain on everything. Restriction has nothing to do with taking the strain off things, it's arbitrary laws created by governments not bike manufacturers.

 

[Evelhornet]

This is the part of the statement where they talk bolax. Deristricting EMTB's can also add increased loads for motors and batteries.
.... Yet it's the same motor & battery etc worldwide. Just Europe ridiculously restricted to 15.5mph ( I'd be totally happy at 20mph) where as other parts of the world allow assistance levels to higher speed, fully warrantied and supported by the manufacturer. I firmly believe most people wouldn't even bother with derestricting at 20mph level of assistance.

I've met several people who have the planet gear adapter on their rear wheel. Completely undetectable and allows the bike up to around 22mph. I've ridden one and the difference is amazing. No 'wall' when you're peddling up a fire road, easier to hit features on flat ground, yet no faster than any bike can do unassisted down hill. Really don't see the problem with them. Most people would be content with 20mph. 15mph is a pain, I get frustrated everytime I'm on a fire road and deliberately stay around 13mph to avoid the drag. On my old non ebike I'd be averaging 17mph!

 

[Stihldog]

…people wouldn't even bother with derestricting at 20mph level of assistance.

I have to agree. On this continent we hit the wall at 32kmh (20mph). However, rarely (almost never) do I hit that speed on our trails.

I believe that it’s reasonable to separate commercial use and begin applying regulations. But private use is gonna be difficult to enforce We’re no different when it comes to riding on the edge of technology.

Only once have we (wife) rode in an area with baby strollers and pets on leashes, only to be passed by a throttle assist commuter. Never again …it wasn’t fun at all. It’s kinda like jogging down an eight lane highway …why?

 

[ian408]

The shape of things to come? Seems Germany is leading the fight against derestriction..:

Bluetooth could help police spot e-bikes hacked for higher speeds

Ernst Brust has been described as one of the most renowned and knowledgeable e-bike experts in Germany and, according to Bike Europe, he has recently been pressing for e-bike motor manufacturers to incorporate Bluetooth interfaces, "to make it easier to identify manipulated motors." Brust was...

ebiketips.road.cc

The reality is, they will install bluetooth devices and riders will print faraday covers or disconnect bluetooth all together. The fire claim? What a crock of shit(e). Motors/batteries have thermal fuses.

What I find amusing is people speed getting to the trails. No call for speed control in cars. And some of you already receive fines automatically via cameras. Pretty much all this will do is nothing but drive the prices up.

 

[webman]

Does that make steep climbs on E-bikes illegal? Surely you easily go over 12Wh per km when climbing!

 

[aegidius]

With sensible laws, there would not be so many people breaking them.

 

[webman]

With sensible laws, there would not be so many people breaking them.

So true. I don’t know who thought 25km/h was sensible….

 

[#lazy]

We’re out on a mixed group ride , 2 mtbs 1 ebike and me on a derestricted ebike . We’re travelling down a long flowy trail when the guy in front hits a walker who didn’t realise it was an unofficial biking trail . As we’re all going about 25mph so there was a huge pileup and the poor walker suffered life threatening injuries.
Ambulance and police arrived to make statements, as it happens they checked my bike and found it to be derestricted and I was charged with ……………. and found guilty of ……………. and got ……………years in jail for being at the back of a bike train on a derestricted ebike .
Edit just made that up but could happen. Trail shovel in backpack from now on

 

[Zimmerframe]

Does that make steep climbs on E-bikes illegal? Surely you easily go over 12Wh per km when climbing!

Yes ... no more steep climbs !!!

 

[rzr]

Illegal e-motorbike riders 'goading' police, force says

Communities want action on illegal motorbikes but police are cautious after high-profile deaths.

www.bbc.com

 

[Mikerb]

Rules on maximum assisted speed will only ever be changed if there is a politically acceptable zero risk reason to do so. I can think of only 3 reasons that could potentially meet those criteria.
1. To encourage further growth of EPACS to reduce car use.
2. To make mixed transport scenarios safer....applies only to commuter/ urban mixed EPAC and car environments
3. To discourage derestriction.....coupled with effective means to prevent it.

No3 is the only one that could be applicable in respect of emtb General complaints.
The biggest problem is nothing to do with EPACs specifically but rather the fact that EPACs have to fit within the overall Road Transport catalogue of vehicle types and their regulations/ tax regimes.......and if EPACs are to remain free from type approval, taxation, licencing, registration etc there has to be clear water between them and the next vehicle in the hierarchy...the moped.
I believe there is scope to achieve that but probably 20mph is the maximum.

 

[Sgarth42]

Illegal e-motorbike riders 'goading' police, force says

Communities want action on illegal motorbikes but police are cautious after high-profile deaths.

www.bbc.com

This type of anitsocial behaviour has always been a problem. Before e-motorbikes it was often stolen trails/enduro motorbikes with no plates, insureance, helmet etc. So still in effect illegal on UK roads & legal green lane trails.

I did notice however that the BBC has correctly started to identify these as e-motorbikes and not e-bikes (later being very missleading to the general public) That is one positive at least.

There will always been a hooligan element of society and unfortuately this clouds the visions of the ill informed to the vast majority of repectful and concienous users of e-bikes.

 

[Planemo]

This type of anitsocial behaviour has always been a problem. Before e-motorbikes it was often stolen trails/enduro motorbikes with no plates, insureance, helmet etc.

I agree to a point, but it's definitely worse now than when it was only trails/enduro bikes that the scrotes used. I am pretty sure it's because most illegal ebikes can look too similar to a regular bike. A KX80 screaming down the road is somewhat easier to spot/hear as being a 'motorbike' than a big hub motor on a pushbike. These 'quiet', big powered bikes which look much more like a bicycle than a motorbike has opened the floodgates for the hooligans to take their chances which many may not were they on a 'proper' motorbike.

 

[Stihldog]

I haven’t been called a cheater for a few years but now it’s commonly used amongst friends, with similar eMTB’s, as an endearing greeting.

Battery powered motor bikes may begin to be a problem though. They have the same access I do to the trails but they are much faster.

 

[Mikerb]

obvioisly different regulations than in the UK then. The vast majority of trails whether farm tracks bridleways ,trial centres, bike parks, Forestry Commission/Forestry England managed forests prohibit any motorised vehicle.....EPACs being the exception since they are legally classed as a bicycle. MX etc is restricted to private land that has no right of public access, with the owners permission..........and that would include any electric bike not fully compliant with the EPAC regulations.