Unanswered Suspension tuning - suss my bike

[mxh]

I recently purchased a suss my bike (SMB) device to try and tune my suspension. Whilst I've got a reasonable understanding of what high /low rebound and compression do, I'm not so good at feeling it - so I've always tended to just use the manufacturer's baseline settings and leave it at that.

I've got a Merida e160 (2018 model) with a Fox Factory 36 on the front and a Fox X2 Factory on the rear.

So, questions.....

Firstly, has anyone else had a play about with the SMB device? Should I be taking everything it says as gospel, or do they only get it right if the conditions are correct, wind's blowing the right way etc?

Secondly (and I suppose this is why I asked the first question), whilst it's telling me that HSC and LSC on the fork are 'all good' (as is sag at 25%), it continually told me to slow down both the HS and LS rebound. I kept doing this until both were fully slow (ie fully wound in, clockwise) but still it's telling me to slow both down. I added 10 PSI in the fork, and for 1 run it told me that HSR was OK, but after allowing it to collect more data, it has now gone back to saying both need to be slowed down. Does this indicate anything particularly wrong? Is there anything else I can change to slow down the rebound?

I'll also add that I've tried it on the shock as well, and that's saying LSR and HSR are fine, so it doesn't seem to be a faulty device which can't detect rebound settings (although I'm currently on a 'slow down LSC and HSC' journey with the shock, so we'll see where that ends up - but will leave that for another day)

Cheers in advance for any input

 

[mxh]

So the problem with using these suspension tuning tools is that YOU MUST USE THEM ON A TRAIL THAT USES 100% OF YOUR SUSPENSION.
there’s a vid of a guy using one on here where he rides through farmers lands and that does jack and shit.

it’s telling to open your LSC and HSC more because you’re not compressing the shocks because you’re riding granny approved trails!! It thinks your compression is locked out because it’s not getting compressed.

again:
YOU MUST USE THEM ON A TRAIL THAT USES 100% OF YOUR SUSPENSION

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately that's not going to be the issue here - the app is reporting that I'm using 95% + of travel.

The trails I'm riding are petty steep with hucks, a few jumps, a few fast sections, so really giving the suspension a full workout. I'm also making sure that the app gets enough data (it tells you when it has enough) so it's not just basing the recommendations on a 5 minute ride.

 

[>moto<]

You can ride off a curb and get a reasonable idea if you rebound is too fast or too slow. Google the method and try it. It may help you determine if what the SUSS is asking for is a bit...errrr....suss

The rebound circuit in the shock should be able to handle upto the max rated shock pressure of 300psi so that fact that the SUSS requires you to slow it down more than is possible when your shock pressure probably isn't that high doesnt sound right.

The only way you cn get more rebound damping than you have is to get a tuner re-shim the shock. There's a multitiude of other things I'd be doing before I even considerd that.

 

[mxh]

The only way you cn get more rebound damping than you have is to get a tuner re-shim the shock. There's a multitiude of other things I'd be doing before I even considerd that.

I'm actually talking about the fork, not the shock. But as the principles should be the same, what would you try next to make the rebound slower?

 

[mxh]

Try taking 4psi out and redo

I started with 10psi less than I have now. Although thinking about it, If I'm trying to slow down the rebound damping, should I have gone the other way and removed pressure from the fork, not added it?

 

[>moto<]

Ah okay, as you say, same principle applies. You cant get more rebound damping without a tuner modifying the shim stack.

Google how to set your rebound on your fork, with max damping dialled in, it's hard to believe that you need more. In fact, it's hard to believe you need max damping. What do you weigh?

As a general rule of thumb, you want to have the damping fast as you can without the front tire bouncing if the floor once you firmly compress your suspension. Obviously a few clicks either way may be needed to suit preferences and riding styles but that's it.

With max damping your front end must feel horrible through rock gardens and braking bumps as it will be 'packing'.

 

[mxh]

What do you weigh?

About 85kg / 187lb

With max damping your front end must feel horrible through rock gardens and braking bumps as it will be 'packing'.

Like I said, I'm not great at 'feeling' what's going on - but I can't say I noticed any really bad feedback.

 

[mxh]

That’s a way to do it and once I had the suspension generally dialed in with the SMB I needed to you with the PSI after that.

You needed to do what with the PSI?

 

[>moto<]

Perhaps try setting reb the way I suggested and try it to see if it feels better. Rebound produces relatively noticeable changes in how active the suspension feels and the bike grips in corners. Almost everyone is capable of determining if those things are getting better or worse.

The forks has more than sufficient rebound damping for a rider of your weight, you're not even close to the max weight.

Faster rebound = more active feel and better grip, though if you go too far it can also make the front push through corners. It will also keep the fork higher in the stroke which generally helps small bump compliance (plush on small bumps).

Slow rebound = front end tucking into corners, harsher feeling, front weight bias and poor tracking of the ground as the fork doesn't extend quick enough after being compressed.

I assume you watched some set-up video prior to buying a tool to set the suspension up for you but I would recommend watching some again so the info is fresh in your mind.

 

[Gary]

Chuck the gadget in the bin and read the first post of the suspension set up sticky topic at the top of the general EMTB forum.

 

[mxh]

Chuck the gadget in the bin and read the first post of the suspension set up sticky topic at the top of the general EMTB forum.

Ah that sticky, where the second post is someone offering Shockwiz to help with setup

As I've already said, I struggle to feel this stuff - you can tell me all day to add (for example) a little LSC if the bike is doing "something", but if I'm not sure whether it's doing the "something" or not then it's not helping me.

It's not that I can't ride - I was the same at MX and Enduro. I got to "expert" level at those, and I'm sure could have had a bit more success if I'd 'felt' things - but I just ride what I've got and rely on the manufacturers to give me the settings to use.

Hence why I've bought a 'gadget' to hopefully help me get things working as they should.

 

[>moto<]

Well, that tool is giving you BS answers. If you honestly can't feel if moving the clickers 3 clicks one way or the other, is 'better' or 'worse' you can't be helped.

Chuck the tool in the bin, set all clickers to the middle and crack on.

 

[Gary]

Ah that sticky, where the second post is someone offering Shockwiz to help with setup

As I've already said, I struggle to feel this stuff - you can tell me all day to add (for example) a little LSC if the bike is doing "something", but if I'm not sure whether it's doing the "something" or not then it's not helping me.

It's not that I can't ride - I was the same at MX and Enduro. I got to "expert" level at those, and I'm sure could have had a bit more success if I'd 'felt' things - but I just ride what I've got and rely on the manufacturers to give me the settings to use.

Hence why I've bought a 'gadget' to hopefully help me get things working as they should.

That's an awful lot of words typed for someone who struggles to read. ?
Clue:

read the first post of the suspension set up sticky topic

Read ALL of that first post and you shouldn't have to continue with your struggle.

But seriously mate. If you honestly believe you can't detect ANY difference between suspension settings no one can help you and you might as well just continue to ride "expertly" on any old random set up.

Mtb suspension can't be fine tuned without a certain degree of feedback from the rider. Which is precisely where all the set up gadgets available fall short and if used by a lazy rider looking to simply buy a quick "fix" they're never going to give any better than base settings with traits that may be far from ideal.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Ah that sticky, where the second post is someone offering Shockwiz to help with setup

As I've already said, I struggle to feel this stuff - you can tell me all day to add (for example) a little LSC if the bike is doing "something", but if I'm not sure whether it's doing the "something" or not then it's not helping me.

It's not that I can't ride - I was the same at MX and Enduro. I got to "expert" level at those, and I'm sure could have had a bit more success if I'd 'felt' things - but I just ride what I've got and rely on the manufacturers to give me the settings to use.

Hence why I've bought a 'gadget' to hopefully help me get things working as they should.

Great reply. I appreciate your honesty. I too struggle to feel if the adjustment made is for better or worse or if it is even different. Echoing your logic I too borrowed a shockwiz to get my fork in the ballpark. It initially told me everything seemed ok but needed HSC. The longer I used it the more annoyed I got with it as it continually changed recommendations the more I rode. I gave it back. I realised each track needed a different adjustment to get the most out of the fork.
I have more or less arrived at a setting where my fork feels great & am really happy with it but am sure if I could 'feel' it better I could get it tweaked to perfection. Best of luck.

 

[>moto<]

There is some weird logic in this thread.

People are stating they can't feel the difference between suspension changes (which blows my mind), so they then spend money on a tool that can only tell them to adjust clickers and air pressure.....which, by their own admission, they couldn't tell the difference between anyway.

If you can't tell if it's better, why change it all? I'm so confused

 

[steve_sordy]

I have not used a Suss My Bike Device, but I have used a ShockWiz. One of the thing it asks you to do, and is easy to forget, is to reset the device each time you make a change to the suspension settings. If you don't reset, then your new setting will be averaged out with what you have done before. As the day progresses, each new setting will have a lesser and lesser impact and the device may keep asking you to make changes that you have already made.

According to the ShockWiz, when I had finished for the day, after making minimal changes it reported that there was nothing else I could do to make the suspension better. It also gave good reports on all sorts of stuff like pogoing, packing, and so forth. But what was it comparing it with? The whole thing was programmed by a person and I believe that their view of what is "good" has been programmed in. It will be "good" of course, but it might not suit you. Despite the device telling me that I did not need to add a token to my shock, I later did so and the shock was much improved as a consequence, as judged by me.

I can borrow a ShockWiz for free, but I don't believe that I would bother again. It is a lot of hassle. Do what @Gary says in post #13

 

[mxh]

Dude honestly it’s easy to just stand on the bike and coast in your garage and max compression dampening all the way then try to bottom out the suspension by pushing down hard. I can usually push thhrough about 90% of my travel when fully open. When closed it’s like 40%

then open compression back up and do the same with rebound. And see how that effects it.

then repeat with HSC and LSC then flip to HSR and LSR maxed out.

there are different feelings for each.

Yes, of course I can do that - and of course I can feel the difference.

What seems to be being totally missed here is the fact that I'm not saying I can't feel the difference between settings riding up and down the road, but that's not where I go mountain biking (and hopefully nor do you)

So I can set the suspension up as per the videos as a good baseline. And the manufacturers give me their baseline - I could just use that instead. But that's just the starting point, and from there I'm trying to see whether the settings are good, or whether there's some improvement to be had. And I'm sure we'd all agree that the sort of trails we're riding have an effect on what's "right" or "wrong" as far as suspension settings go, so it's not ''one size fits all'

But it's on the trail where I struggle to feel whether a change to a setting made a difference or not. Yes, I can feel when the rebound damping is gone (had that a few times), but as for fine tuning, is it the best it can be or it be better - I'm not sure, hence why I tried the SMB.

So I'd put it back to some of 'despairing' responders on here - how do you know your suspension is spot on? You've followed the videos and set it up in your garage - but what do you do on the trail to confirm that it's spot on? Do you just assume it must be right for you because that's what a bloke in the video said?

 

[>moto<]

I think you're overcomplicating the whole thing. MTB suspension is realtively simple to set-up because they are (mostly) relatively simple units. Most people use use a technique called 'bracketing' whether they realise it or not.

Set suspension to suggested settings, go to a trail you ride often that has a good mix terrain and fiddle with the clickers. Start with rebound, add 3 clicks 1 way, does it feel better or worse? Better = add another 3 clicks. Worse = go 3 clicks the other way from your starting position.

Basically keep doing this. Start with clicks to get a general better or worse feel then use smaller adjustments to fine tune until you land on the clicker settings that you like most. Watch a video on it, like I said eleventy posts ago.

 

[Gary]

I take it you still haven't bothered to read through all of the first post in the suspension set-up topic yet?
It's not about following a video or looking for some holy grail list of perfect settings. It's about setting it up to suit YOU the rider, YOUR riding style and preferences and the terrain YOU like to ride. As you've already been told by many of us it's always going to be a compromise.
Once you actually understand what each adjustment does and how they affect each other it's up to YOU to determine how you like to run each setting.
All the information you require is in that one post

 

[RickBullotta]

Here's a better baseline for a Fox 36/X2 combo:

First step: open LSC and HSC on both your fork and your shock to wide open, then in at most 2 clicks
Second step: remove all air, then add back 10 psi at a time, cycling the fork/shock, until desired sag is achieved (be sure you are wearing your normal riding gear + water when setting sag)
Third step: based on the pressure(s) you ended up with, set LSR/HSR to OEM and Fox recommendations

Go Ride!

 

[RickBullotta]

So the problem with using these suspension tuning tools is that YOU MUST USE THEM ON A TRAIL THAT USES 100% OF YOUR SUSPENSION.
there’s a vid of a guy using one on here where he rides through farmers lands and that does jack and shit.

it’s telling to open your LSC and HSC more because you’re not compressing the shocks because you’re riding granny approved trails!! It thinks your compression is locked out because it’s not getting compressed.

again:
YOU MUST USE THEM ON A TRAIL THAT USES 100% OF YOUR SUSPENSION

Not necessarily. The Grip 2 cartridge and the X2 seem to function optimally on normal trail riding at nearly wide open positions on both my Pivot Shuttle and my Hightower.

 

[aarfeldt]

YOU MUST USE THEM ON A TRAIL THAT USES 100% OF YOUR SUSPENSION

Please stop shouting or get your keyboard fixed.

 

[Gary]

WhY Do sOme FolK loSe tHeiR ShIt OvEr ReaDiNg CaPitAl LeTtERs?

Weird.