Squashed headtube on arrival

[steve_sordy]

I have bought a used Orange Five frame off eBay. The frame had been sent back to Orange for a respray and new rear triangle. The seller has all the usual good stuff, 100% score, excellent feedback and so forth. He was also very helpful with my questions, gave his time freely.

The frame arrived today, very well packed in a substantial Orange branded corrugated box, along with about 12 feet of thick bubble wrap. On first sight the frame was excellent, it looked like new. I gave the relevant feedback. Guests arrived and I delayed a thorough examination for about an hour. The frame had been put back in its box and stored in the spare bedroom.

An hour passed and I removed the frame from its box and gave it a really good inspection and I saw this:

Yes, it looks like the frame has been dropped and the top of the head tube has been dented. I have messaged the seller and included photos, no reply yet. I can almost see the response: "Well it was OK when I shipped it!"

I was already planning to visit the LBS on Thu am anyway, so I thought I'd take the frame in to get his opinion. Surely a stiff and strong steel bearing will press in and move aside the soft aluminium.

I measured it just in case it was an optical illusion!
It wasn't! the bottom of the top tube is 49.3mm dia all the way around. (To fit a 49mm dia bearing, upper and lower).
The top is 49.3mm dia most of the way around, but the dented section measures 48.2mm at the lowest. The dented area is about 25mm across.

So, it's definitely had a bang!
1.1mm (or 0.060") is a lot to shift just by pressing in a bearing.

Any ideas?
I really like the frame, and up to now only had good thoughts for the seller. (Still not heard back). If there is an easy fix at the LBS, I'm minded to keep it. But what if there isn't? It has to go back. Trouble is I've already accepted the frame and told the seller it was all good. There is no visible damage to the substantial Orange branded box that it came in, along with about 12 feet of thick bubble wrap. It was really well wrapped. Its looking like the frame was already dented when shipped.

Gutted!!

 

[Zed.]

Any ideas?

you can buy (ebay) pipe stretching tools for restoring exhaust pipes and I'd start with one of these - no help to you that I have one in my tool stash but if you were closer

also heat the area in an attempt to anneal......

3Pcs Exhaust Muffler Tail Pipe Expander/Pipe Spreader Tool Kit 1-1/8" to 3-1/2" | eBay

This tail pipe expander set is designed to quickly and easily straighten clamp dents in mufflers. 1 Pcs Small Expander. 1 Pcs Large Expander. A simple wrench turn expands pipe for exhaust system repair and installation.

www.ebay.co.uk

sorta thing

Rich.

 

[Jackware]

Please don't think I'm taking the piss Steve, but I'd try 'gently' working on the inner edge with the ball end of a ball pein hammer.

 

[Joecrow]

I would definitely give the seller a reasonable time to respond and take it from there and if they don't respond or lie claim a refund!
A stretcher designed for thin steel pipping might either be ineffective or run the risk of cracking the aluminium while attempting to anneal it will almost certainly damage the paintwork and may leave the housing in a too malelable state to reliably hold the bearing. The hammer might work if you are very very carefull but you run the risk of giving the surface of the bearing housing a hammer fnish to the detriment of fitting and holding the bearing.

 

[Astro66]

Any ideas?

So sorry to hear Steve.

I don't give feedback until well after I have used the new device. Especially for expensive items. But I guess that horse has bolted.

Once you have told Ebay the item arrived and was in good order, it's very difficult to go back. And the retailer is always just going to blame shipping, and the fact you said it arrived OK. Has taken away any recourse with the freight company. As they will say you have dropped it after taking delivery.

So whilst a message to the seller was the best option. I don't believe that will end with them taking back the frame. I think you are just going to have to repair it. Lots of good ideas offered above. Get some model airplane paint to try and match and repair any paint issues.

 

[Stihldog]

It appears that a small section of the edge has “folded over …therefore not allowing the bearing cup to sit properly.

Hmmm …what would I do?

The muffler pipe sounds like a good idea, but you run the risk of distorting the bearing pocket in other areas. Also the circular metal may flex or relax. (I think this method or tool would have to be specific.

A direct hammer blow or tapping runs the risk of damage to the edge, which needs to remain parallel to the wall(s) of the bearing pocket.

A large socket-extension tool (8”) might give you a better, and controllable angle, while lightly taping the damaged area. You could check for fit after a number of taps until the fit is perfect. You’ll have to chase the deformity with the round socket extension end while holding it in position.

I would place the frame between my legs, rather than a vice. You’ll need some patience but I don’t think you will do any more damage. Don’t over-do-it and good luck .

I’m open to any criticism for this repair . I’ve never tried this before. Might work???

 

[Huxie]

I’m fairly sure you have 30 days from delivery to raise a case with eBay (Significantly Not As Described (SNAD)) irrespective of your feedback. Wait to see how the seller replies and take it from there.

 

[E-MAD MALC]

I have bought a used Orange Five frame off eBay. The frame had been sent back to Orange for a respray and new rear triangle. The seller has all the usual good stuff, 100% score, excellent feedback and so forth. He was also very helpful with my questions, gave his time freely.

The frame arrived today, very well packed in a substantial Orange branded corrugated box, along with about 12 feet of thick bubble wrap. On first sight the frame was excellent, it looked like new. I gave the relevant feedback. Guests arrived and I delayed a thorough examination for about an hour. The frame had been put back in its box and stored in the spare bedroom.

An hour passed and I removed the frame from its box and gave it a really good inspection and I saw this:
View attachment 153847
View attachment 153848
Yes, it looks like the frame has been dropped and the top of the head tube has been dented. I have messaged the seller and included photos, no reply yet. I can almost see the response: "Well it was OK when I shipped it!"

I was already planning to visit the LBS on Thu am anyway, so I thought I'd take the frame in to get his opinion. Surely a stiff and strong steel bearing will press in and move aside the soft aluminium.

I measured it just in case it was an optical illusion!
It wasn't! the bottom of the top tube is 49.3mm dia all the way around. (To fit a 49mm dia bearing, upper and lower).
The top is 49.3mm dia most of the way around, but the dented section measures 48.2mm at the lowest. The dented area is about 25mm across.

So, it's definitely had a bang!
1.1mm (or 0.060") is a lot to shift just by pressing in a bearing.

Any ideas?
I really like the frame, and up to now only had good thoughts for the seller. (Still not heard back). If there is an easy fix at the LBS, I'm minded to keep it. But what if there isn't? It has to go back. Trouble is I've already accepted the frame and told the seller it was all good. There is no visible damage to the substantial Orange branded box that it came in, along with about 12 feet of thick bubble wrap. It was really well wrapped. Its looking like the frame was already dented when shipped.

Gutted!!

If that was mine I'd get a piece of dowel and hammer it back into shape
The Ali is soft enough just take your time matey

 

[steve_sordy]

It appears that a small section of the edge has “folded over …therefore not allowing the bearing cup to sit properly.

Hmmm …what would I do?

The muffler pipe sounds like a good idea, but you run the risk of distorting the bearing pocket in other areas. Also the circular metal may flex or relax. (I think this method or tool would have to be specific.

A direct hammer blow or tapping runs the risk of damage to the edge, which needs to remain parallel to the wall(s) of the bearing pocket.

A large socket-extension tool (8”) might give you a better, and controllable angle, while lightly taping the damaged area. You could check for fit after a number of taps until the fit is perfect. You’ll have to chase the deformity with the round socket extension end while holding it in position.

I would place the frame between my legs, rather than a vice. You’ll need some patience but I don’t think you will do any more damage. Don’t over-do-it and good luck .

I’m open to any criticism for this repair . I’ve never tried this before. Might work???

@Stihldog Thanks for your post, it comes closest to what I was thinking.

After a lot of thought overnight and in discussion with a friend one the way down to Heathrow airport this morning. I decided that I was going to put a large screwdriver through the largest diameter socket I have and gently ease it around the bore where the dent is. I'm pretty sure that it's a lip and not the whole depth of the bearing area. I will brace the bottom of the screwdriver on a piece of wood shaped to the bottom end of the head tube, so that I have something to push against without damaging anything.
But that would have been after I spoke to Orange and after I spoke to the LBS and assuming that they came up with nothing, and also after contacting the seller.
Orange say they would not attempt to straighten the head tube. They would cut it off and reweld and heat treat, paint etc for £275. Or I could have a new 2018 front triangle painted in the correct colour for ££600. I'll let them know (not).

I will be seeing the LBS tomorrow morning. They are all good guys there and I have been using them for about 5 years now.

I was on my way home from Heathrow when the seller rang me (he had my mobile for the courier). Really nice guy, garage mechanic, long term Orange Five owner, had half a dozen bikes from Orange. He said that he was impressed that my first thought was to keep the bike and not immediately reject it. He is happy to help. He liked the socket and screwdriver idea. However, he offered to refund me and arrange to have the bike collected. He will then get if fixed by a friend of his who is a panel beater. His friend has seen the photos and believes that he can do it easily and quickly; he has all sorts of special tools. Then the seller will offer the bike back to me if I still want it. I didn't realise until he rang me that I was quite tense about the issue. Unless he is a gifted con-artist, he comes across as a genuinely nice guy.

Next stop the LBS. If they are not positive, I will consult with the seller and see If I should have a go at fixing it, but on balance I reckon that would leave me taking all the risk. I will probably take up his offer.

@Zed. @Jackware and @E-MAD MALC Thanks a lot for your ideas, I did think about them all.
@Astro66 @Joecrow and @Huxie Thanks a lot for your advice, I valued it all.

I will update this thread as and when.

 

[steve_sordy]

I spoke the LBS. They had never seen anything like it, so that's the end of my fantasy of them saying "oh yes, that's a doddle, we'll do it while you wait!"

What they did say was that they would get the local machine shop to make a tapered shaft and press it in, from the bottom for preference to push any lip outwards in the opposite direction to how it was made. But they have never done it before. The guys I spoke to both agreed that it was fixable, but would only attempt it if I gave them a free pass (ie at my own risk).

Given the offer from the seller, I will take him up on it.

 

[Mikerb]

probably too late but I think my first thought would be to ream out the imperfection rather than panel beat it. It would only remove a minimal amount of material so in my opinion would not weaken it at all. A machine shop (somewhere that does engine part machining ( cylinder bores/cranks etc) would likely have the correct tool to do that.

 

[irie]

probably too late but I think my first thought would be to ream out the imperfection rather than panel beat it. It would only remove a minimal amount of material so in my opinion would not weaken it at all. A machine shop (somewhere that does engine part machining ( cylinder bores/cranks etc) would likely have the correct tool to do that.

Removing even minimal material would only weaken it.

 

[Hobo Mikey]

I think taking the sellers offer is the best option. you can’t loose.

 

[Mikerb]

Removing even minimal material would only weaken it.

The open end of an ally tube is weak in any event. Its strength as a headtube comes from the clamping of bearing races and bearings top and bottom. The reason it was damaged in the first place was because it was left unprotected. It should have had a dummy headset type protector inserted. The only perfect solution is for the headtube to be replaced (as Orange proposed) Panel beating or stretching especially without heat will risk cracking the open end of the tube in my opinion.

 

[Dax]

Just send it back. Way too much hassle to get that round again

 

[steve_sordy]

probably too late but I think my first thought would be to ream out the imperfection rather than panel beat it. It would only remove a minimal amount of material so in my opinion would not weaken it at all. A machine shop (somewhere that does engine part machining ( cylinder bores/cranks etc) would likely have the correct tool to do that.

I measured the wall thickness all round, because it doesn't look even. The very top of the headtube is tapered, so I made sure that I measured 3 mm down and it measured consistently.

45 deg left from ahead 2.70 mm and 2.70 mm opposite side
45 deg right from ahead 2.72 and 2.74 mm opposite side

For the metrically challenged that means that the max variation is 0.04 mm which is 0.0016" in real money.

If you remember the out of round measurements that I took in my post #1, the head tube material bulges inward by 1.10 mm (0.060"). If that bulge was machined off, it would reduce the wall thickness at the front by over 40%.
As much as I like the clean approach of reaming it out*, a material thickness reduction of over 40% is a bit too much for my taste. Yes, I agree the dent is only 25mm wide, but still, 40%

Note* Big machines in workshops, goes back to my roots as a mechanical engineering apprentice, so you can see the attraction for me. (Get behind me Satan!)

 

[steve_sordy]

................... Panel beating or stretching especially without heat will risk cracking the open end of the tube in my opinion.

Which is why I decided to send it back for the seller to do. see later.

 

[steve_sordy]

The seller has refunded me personally, not via eBay. He has arranged for the frame to be collected on Tuesday next week. I will attempt to improve upon the original packaging. Once his panel beater friend has fixed the frame without cracking, I will get first refusal. His friend is on hols next week, so it will be the week after that I find out whether he managed to sort it.
Fingers crossed. It is a really nice frame and a beautiful charcoal black colour. It is unmarked, except for that dent!!

Many thanks to all that offered ideas, support and commiseration. All are appreciated.

PS: The Rockshox Pike RCT3 arrived yesterday. Absolutely mint in appearance. With my recent lesson in mind, I partially inflated the fork and checked all of its functions. All good.

PPS: Later edit I still haven't told my grandson that his frame, which was "Ace, wicked.....", that it is dented and has to go back. I will avoid that until I have to tell him. Despite his excitement about the whole project, he has been slow to get started. You never know, with a bit of luck, the frame will be back with me before he visits.

 

[Dax]

Would anyone here trust that frame once it’s been repaired? One good nose case and you’re shopping for new teeth

 

[steve_sordy]

Would anyone here trust that frame once it’s been repaired? One good nose case and you’re shopping for new teeth

A big Jubilee clip around the head tube should sort that out.