Specialized Levo vs Trek Rail

[AKAKTM]

Can you expand on this?

Bosch seems to use a relatively sophisticated algorithm or map that compares distance traveled, speed and crank speed over time In addition to simply measuring pulses from the sensor/rotor magnet combo. So if you simply install a Planet3 with only one magnet resulting in a magnet speed reduction of 3:1, the motor will detect it quickly and present a 503 code. If you run two magnets to have less reduction, then the motor may not detect it immediately, but may still detect it over time, sometimes tens or hundreds of miles. The key will be to determine at what ratio the map will accept the input and not present an error code.

I am not willing to risk it with my motor so I’ll just be constrained to 19mph. Therefore, that’s a disadvantage of the Bosch relative to the Levo. On the levo, if you want to reduce to 650b wheels, there is a provision where the shop, not the rider, can adjust wheel size to 2000mm circumference. If you then put 29 wheels back on, the bike will run more than 22mph. My Levo was setup like this and I really appreciated it.

 

[Paul Mac]

Bosch seems to use a relatively sophisticated algorithm or map that compares distance traveled, speed and crank speed over time In addition to simply measuring pulses from the sensor/rotor magnet combo. So if you simply install a Planet3 with only one magnet resulting in a magnet speed reduction of 3:1, the motor will detect it quickly and present a 503 code. If you run two magnets to have less reduction, then the motor may not detect it immediately, but may still detect it over time, sometimes tens or hundreds of miles. The key will be to determine at what ratio the map will accept the input and not present an error code.

I am not willing to risk it with my motor so I’ll just be constrained to 19mph. Therefore, that’s a disadvantage of the Bosch relative to the Levo. On the levo, if you want to reduce to 650b wheels, there is a provision where the shop, not the rider, can adjust wheel size to 2000mm circumference. If you then put 29 wheels back on, the bike will run more than 22mph. My Levo was setup like this and I really appreciated it.

I have over 1000 miles on mine using a speed box 3, no error codes or problems

 

[Doomanic]

Interesting. I've seen reports on ArseBook from people with Speedbox 3's experiencing 504 errors.

What firmware version are you running?

 

[Paul Mac]

Interesting. I've seen reports on ArseBook from people with Speedbox 3's experiencing 504 errors.

What firmware version are you running?

There are three of us that all bought Rails in January, none of us have had problems.
Dont know what software it is, but haven't had it updated.

 

[Doomanic]

You’ll still be on 1.0.2 then. Next reported problem I’ll ask what firmware they’re on.

 

[AKAKTM]

You’ll still be on 1.0.2 then. Next reported problem I’ll ask what firmware they’re on.

Mine was in for a check up Thursday and the dealer updated to the “latest”’ firmware. I haven’t checked but I’m sure the main purpose is to shut down hacking. If your SpeedBox works now I would not update firmware.

 

[Paul Mac]

You’ll still be on 1.0.2 then. Next reported problem I’ll ask what firmware they’re on.

I've heard of lots of Cubes throwing up the error, but not trek's, dont know why that would be as I assume the motor and controller are the same.

 

[Doomanic]

I think the Cube's throw up errors out of embarrassment at looking like a spangly Haibike...

 

[pgtips]

My Rail 7 is 4 weeks old and I had the speedbox on for about 30 miles. not sure if this is long enough to throw any errors, but I would think been a 4 week old bike is running the latest firmware? Shame the only way to tell is a visit to BS.

 

[pgtips]

I think the Cube's throw up errors out of embarrassment at looking like a spangly Haibike...

 

[Doomanic]

My Rail 7 is 4 weeks old and I had the speedbox on for about 30 miles. not sure if this is long enough to throw any errors, but I would think been a 4 week old bike is running the latest firmware? Shame the only way to tell is a visit to BS.

RTFM, there will be a way to get the version up on the Kiox.

 

[photocycycler]

My Rail 7 is 4 weeks old and I had the speedbox on for about 30 miles. not sure if this is long enough to throw any errors, but I would think been a 4 week old bike is running the latest firmware? Shame the only way to tell is a visit to BS.

How fast is the bike now with the derestriction?

 

[pgtips]

RTFM, there will be a way to get the version up on the Kiox.

Hmmm I take a look tomorrow Dom

 

[pgtips]

How fast is the bike now with the derestriction?

I can't pedal that fast

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think the Cube's throw up errors out of embarrassment at looking like a spangly Haibike...

Well you've ruined that for me. I really liked the look of the latest cubes. Having just compared an image page of cubes with an image page of haibikes .. all I see now are Haiubes . feck.

They even have the similar thing where the downtube and motor look like a bit of an overweight hockeystick and all the other parts were just bolted to that.

It seems .... I like ugly !

 

[CjP]

Well you've ruined that for me. I really liked the look of the latest cubes. Having just compared an image page of cubes with an image page of haibikes .. all I see now are Haiubes . feck.

They even have the similar thing where the downtube and motor look like a bit of an overweight hockeystick and all the other parts were just bolted to that.

It seems .... I like ugly !

Well you thought it would be a good idea to buy a Hardtail ebike once upon a time ?

 

[Don_Singer]

I just joined the forum after reading all the great information on this thread. Thank you all for your contributions to an active forum I am excited to join.

I am looking to buy an eMTB and demo'ed both a Rail and a Levo. I did not see on this thread any discussion of suspension. I get motors probably the most important feature, I like the Brose better, but also prefer Bosch eMTB mode to switching between Trail and Eco, I don't have any issues with SRAM or Shimano they both shift fine, so for me the most significant part of the build kit is the suspension components, the fork and the shock. I am not a dentist and I cannot afford the top build spec so I need value for my money. My rented Rail 9.7 and base-model Levo came with a Rockshox Yari and 35, respectively. I understand if you come from road cycling any suspension is better than none, but if you also ride dirt bikes who know how good an off-road suspension can be. I think the recommended pressures are for bike park senders and are WAY too stiff for trail riding. I eventually let enough air out to get some kind of small bump compliance which in my mind has a huge impact on trail rideability, but then the sag isn't right and a couple volume spacers would be nice. I struggle getting these lower-spec forks and shock to work, and am curious about your experience.

My current choices are the Rail 7 or 9.7 or the Levo Comp and I am fine with either hence my interest in this tread. However, I am leaning toward the Orbea Wild FS H10 because for an additional $500 I can upgrade to a Fox Factory suspension with high and low speed compression and rebound adjustments.

Thanks for posting your impressions on suspension components and set up, I really want to learn how you make these components work for you. Thank again,

 

[Doomanic]

Why not talk to your dealer about upgrading the forks?

The Yari just needs a damper to make it a Lyrik Ultimate, I don't think the 35s can be upgraded, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
The Levo Comp comes with the old Charger damper which is better than the Motion Control in the Yari but not as good as the Charger 2.1 in the Lyrik Ultimate.

 

[Don_Singer]

Why not talk to your dealer about upgrading the forks?

Really short conversation as they stumble around about no re-sale value on new product take offs and they can't give a break on retail pricing. Basically LBS sell bikes as they come in the box, if you want to upgrade they are happy to order those parts for you...at full retail.

The Yari just needs a damper to make it a Lyrik Ultimate, I don't think the 35s can be upgraded, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
The Levo Comp comes with the old Charger damper which is better than the Motion Control in the Yari but not as good as the Charger 2.1 in the Lyrik Ultimate.

Thanks for the tips, good to know the upgrades are possible, and I think usually reasonably affordable if they fit. The Levo Comp comes with a Lyrik Select+, can it be upgraded with the Charger 2.1?

 

[Doomanic]

they can't give a break on retail pricing.

Utter rubbish. Find a better dealer.

The Levo Comp comes with a Lyrik Select+, can it be upgraded with the Charger 2.1?

Yes, but possibly not worth it in a $ to performance increase calculation. A better option may be the Push HC97 but I haven't really looked at them properly because they are an add-on to a Charger damper which I don't have.

HC97

THIS PRODUCT DOES NOT WORK WITH NEWER CHARGER 3 MODEL FORKS!!!! Features: ELEVENSIX Compression Valve Technology for your fork Pressure Balanced Symmetrical flow rate for increased traction and control Provides smooth plush ride without being mushy “Shim-Less” High Speed Compression Valve for...

www.pushindustries.com

Of course, for ultimate small bump compliance you want a coil conversion...

ACS3 Fork Coil Conversion Kit for 2016-2020 Rock Shox Lyrik/Yari RC/RC - PUSH Industries

www.pushindustries.com

Or

Smashpot - Fork Coil Conversion System

Run over everything. Presenting the Smashpot - a fork coil spring conversion system for single crown enduro forks, featuring externally adjustable hydraulic anti-bottoming technology to deliver precisely the amount of bottoming resistance you need. The benefits of coil are clear: if your first...

vorsprungsuspension.com

 

[Don_Singer]

Of course, for ultimate small bump compliance you want a coil conversion...

ACS3 Fork Coil Conversion Kit for 2016-2020 Rock Shox Lyrik/Yari RC/RC - PUSH Industries

www.pushindustries.com

Or

Smashpot - Fork Coil Conversion System

Run over everything. Presenting the Smashpot - a fork coil spring conversion system for single crown enduro forks, featuring externally adjustable hydraulic anti-bottoming technology to deliver precisely the amount of bottoming resistance you need. The benefits of coil are clear: if your first...

vorsprungsuspension.com

Now we're talkin'! Great idea! Buying decision game-changer, it untangles the geometry/motor/suspension quagmire. I wish I could sit down with a tech at an LBS and talk suspension like I can with you all, thanks again for all the great info.

 

[maynard]

Do you know the levo is completely customiseable (is that a word) you can change peak power too 100 the support to whatever you like. Which is same a emtb mode but better .

 

[Doomanic]

It's not the same as EMTB mode.

New Bosch Performance CX eMTB Mode – First Review

Yet Bosch are confident that their latest release – a new eMTB mode for the Performance CX motor – will reiterate their supremacy.

ebike-mtb.com

Now even more flow on the trail with the Bosch eMTB mode

The eMTB mode is the perfect support for eMountain bikers on any ride and every trail. Find out now how the eMTB mode helps you to have even more fun and flow when eBiking and why you absolutely need this feature.

www.bosch-ebike.com

 

[Don_Singer]

Do you know the levo is completely customiseable (is that a word) you can change peak power too 100 the support to whatever you like. Which is same a emtb mode but better .

I was going to reply similar to Doomanic but as I was typing it got me thinking.

Specialized Mission Control allows setting the max power and percent support as a fixed value. During my demo I set Trail at 40% support and 100% power and used that mode for climbing, but I found it harder to control on flowing trails, so I set ECO to 35% support and 80% power. I needed to do more shifting in ECO without the additional support but it was easier to control on technical terrain.

On the Trek I just used EMTB. In the Bosch literature I am having trouble sorting out their algorithm for percent support and power based on rider pedal force. I guess it is saying when you are really mashing the pedals you get Turbo mode power and when applying less force Tour mode power. I think cadence is figured in there somewhere, like for high force but low cadence you get less than turbo power which is good for technical terrain like rock steps and logs, and for high cadence the support seems a higher percentage.

My experience is; on the Levo I needed to switch modes to get the right feel, on the Rail EMTB seemed to sort that out for me. It was just a one day demo, but I remember not feeling the need to switch between eMTB and Tour except to save battery.

So yes, they are different but also kind of the same. I think with the Levo if you don't mind having to switch modes the customization let's you really dial in your preference for a better ride experience. The Bosch EMTB works well but it is what it is and if you don't quite like it you have to accept it.

Thanks again for your valuable input.

 

[Reap3r]

I am also considering a Levo Expert Carbon Vs. Trek Rail 9.7 but I am hung up on the noise of the Bosch motor. I REALLY value the idea of emtb mode being more dynamic and responsive, and it may be enough to have me overlook the whisper quiet nature of the Brose, which I also REALLY value. So I feel like I'm stuck between a better responding motor (for the type of riding I want to do) or a quiet motor. I have not ridden either bikes (or any mid-drive ebikes) so I really hope that when I test ride both of them, the noise issue is minor enough to ignore?

 

[Doomanic]

whisper quiet nature of the Brose

They aren't that quiet. Yes, they're quieter than the Bosch, but they're not silent by any means.

 

[Reap3r]

They aren't that quiet. Yes, they're quieter than the Bosch, but they're not silent by any means.

So in your mind, out on the trail in the real world, is the difference in noise noticeable / worth putting any consideration into?

 

[Forever Wild]

@Doomanic How have you found the Kiox display for taking knocks etc? I know it’s early days but I’m genuinely wondering.

My purion display has taken a beating due to my poor riding skills.

 

[Doomanic]

No, but I have a Bosch, so I would say that...

IMHO, just buy the bike that suits you/your riding, stop worrying about the tiny insignificant details and have fun.

 

[Doomanic]

@Doomanic How have you found the Kiox display for taking knocks etc? I know it’s early days but I’m genuinely wondering.

I don't have a Kiox. I'd like one, but, you know, kerching.